**ALL MEMBERS** A REMINDER OF WHY WE ARE HERE AND HOW TO ACT.

It occurs to me that by not letting the Original Poster finish "Nibbling that Cheese" we (as a community) are denying ourselves knowledge in itself.

If the O.P. is indeed a hoaxer, we almost HAVE to let him complete his fabrication so in the future we have more clearly recognizable tactics proven to be false. By crying HOAX prematurely, we have scared the evil-doer away and we may never recognize his MO the next time.

If the O.P. is genuine, the premature HOAX will undermine our ability to hear information we may use as proof in another fashon or topic. The O.P. is estranged and, pardon the expression, alienated. We hobble ourselves either way with such behavior.

The other thing that occurs to me is the talking OVER the O.P. with post like: "What a nut this guy is." and "Can you believe this guy?" or the ever so popular "If you believe this so-and-so's claptrap, then..." is also counter-productive for the same reasons. It alienates the O.P. and that's literally saps ATS of information. It starves us of what sustains us.

Sorry. I ramble on sometimes.
Any thoughts on this facet?

Cuhail

Nice post springer! I know how you feel, most people have nothing better to do so they make a mockery of those who believe and want to turn ufology into a serious discussion but these people don't want it to happen. This is the only website i can go on and discuss with people, and i don't want that ruined. More power to you

It's about time action is being taken. I'm sick of going to large threads only to see 50% of that thread being nothing more than mindless ramble and unfounded accusations. I know that ATS has been hit by a lot of hoaxes recently, but that is no reason to just automatically doubt people whenever they post. "Innocent until proven guilty", not "Hoaxer until proven truth". If the poster is true in what he said, nobody should find him to be a hoax and should not worry about responding; likewise, other posters should not attack the topic creator if they have nothing more than minuscule "proof" (Like that "I see pixels LOL!" thing in the other thread that, at first, I thought was a joke until it went on for a ton of pages) or want to detriment the flow of conversation. I want to see real topics of interesting issues on the front page, not topics full of back-and-forth arguing.

[edit on 8/22/2007 by SonicInfinity]

reply to post by Springer


im going to have to agree with the ops quote. look at all of us acting like fools and all but doing is gawk at an endless list of improvised theories.

when will justice be done for those killed in vain?

I agree with the Springer on this topic. I was -->

Alright, I guess I have to agree with what you said or I will probobly never see this site again. But compulsive liars are indeed everywhere, most of them living in St. Cloud, MN. I don't exactly know what causes the compulsion to lie about everything, but I consider it a disability and therefore should give them all special treatment, and either pretend to believe what is said or just ignore them. If they wanted to be ignored they would not post. I have not posted much of anything other than harsh criticism towards whatever topic is at hand, often my own opinions, which I now realize I cannot give......from now on, I will give in to the lies and pretend I believe, as that is what this site is now all about. Or....I will not post at all.....as that is what this site is now all about.......if you must ban me...atleast allow me to read through the site still.....it is usually all I do online for about an hour or so every day.

I'm going to post the same thing here as I did in the thread that was the cause of this thread's discussion.

PJ's post from Texas_Longhorn thread

It almost seems like so many people on ATS have told stories of their own personal UFO encounters before and have been ripped to shreds over it. People have probably called them crazy and delusional and told them that their story was a hoax or a fabrication. Perhaps they have been "programmed" by other skeptics calling their bluff, and now they do the same thing to others as a first line of defense. If their own story wasn't believed at one point in time, why should they believe anyone elses or even give them a shot to explain? I think this takes place subconsciously without the person even being aware of the way they are acting. I'm not so sure now that ATS would be the first place I would want to post my story if I were to ever have a UFO encounter, even though I love the service this forum offers to its users. Just my 2 cents.

As noted above, I believe that many of us (newer members and oldtimers alike) have been "programmed" to be extreme, unrelenting skeptics (even if we have not had a UFO encounter). I have been guilty of it myself on occasion. I think the proper way to handle issues going forward is to do so humbly and with a helping hand. I will certainly make my best effort to raise that from most to all of the threads I post in.

[edit on 8/23/2007 by pjslug]

Great post Springer.

i joined ats right about the time of the big Serpo fiasco and ended up an ats junkie. ask my wife. she'll tell you, at great length about how i not only spend way too much time here but feel the need to discuss (rant?) things with her when i find a topic or thread that animates me in one way or another.

in my time ive noticed that in most topics there are THREE distinct groups that show up.

group 1) the true believers. these folks will believe anything typed out of hand regardless of the story. if i typed that i saw a UFO while on my noon lunchbreak while at work in nebraska but i couldnt get a good look because it was really dark taht day but when it flew by the full moon i could kinda see it but then it flew behind a mountain and was gone, and i remember thinking wow its how out, sun sure is bright out today, they'd buy my story without any questions.

group 2) the boy who cried hoax. these are the guys/gals that wouldnt believe anything you typed no matter what evidence you brought to the table. THEY THEMSELVES could take a picture of a ufo that landed in their own yard, after talking with the aliens at great length and put the pics on ats and THEY would cry PHOTOSHOP!! HOAX to their own story. they are also not shy about their opinions or sharing them.

Group 3) (this is the group i wish we could all be in but we're not) these are the people that are open minded enough to believe anything once they are satisfied that the criteria of proof had been met. these people will ask the tough questions but will be respectful while doing it. many of these people will also ask for some independant analysis and are willing to take the results of that analysis as part of the body of evidence and not as the sole source. these are the true open minded skeptics who are living the motto of denying ignorance every day. arrogance would like me to claim i was in this group all the time, but humility will force me to say that i do stray from time to time. but let me tell ya'll, im tryin.

so, i guess to answer one of the questions springer put out in his OP, "who'd be laughing?" with enough members in my above stated group three, and with top notch experts like jritzman willing to lend their expertise, in the end i think its us that are laughing at the hoaxers more often than they laugh at us. hoaxers dont seem to last long around here, and as more of us find permanent homes in group3 they'll last less each time.

just my thoughts, hope no one was offended. wasnt my intent in any way.

peace

I have read and agree to follow and accept..its a contract..its a promise without which this forum would be an entangled mass of gibberish.


When people are Behind an avatar they get the impression they are either immune protected and invisible , and therfore have a pass to unload personal garbage onto another poster or a whole group. Everyone knows or should know how much luggage they have. Fortunately carryon luggage is prohibited here, though some do attempt to sneek it on board. Words indeed do have power and can enlighten or cause great harm as we all are flesh and blood with a heart and feelings. No one has ever been evicted from here for being polite, whether or not an argument holds water or not. You can make a point, but if one is a recognized retentive you will have a small audience in the end, yourself. These are the last few places we can actually be sociable as few are left in the "real world" and as such There is no neeed to proceed with an alpha and beta mentality, that is if we want to learn or just have a great time in good fellowship.

In The end Know thyself, and please leave the issues and carryons far far from here as best you can.

Thank You Mr. Springer
Thank you fellow members

SyS

I would also like to apologize for my immature post in the TLH thread.

As a new member here at ATS, I'm going to take a more "read more, post less" attitude. Which I should have done from the start.

It's just that for me, humor is a defense mechanism for pain, it always has been in hard times in my life. So maybe I decided to make a funny post in defense of feeling duped by the OP ect, who knows.

But by NO means should I have ever joked around with staff or Admins by name, that's a big no- no., and I should have known better.

How about a suggestion?

Is it possible to force people to add links when posting anything?
Have the URL field mandatory before someone can post anything, or else the Post reply is (Simon)grayed out. Perhaps it will make them find the 'source' first, then post a topic that hasn't been posted already.

Also, have a mandatory field that asks 'Have you used the Search feature?' Yes/No. This can be another reminder for people to search before creating new topics. It's easy for us to create lots of threads, but it's the mods that have to clean up the mess after.

Just my two cents, I told my UFO story several times and no one questioned it.

Maybe it was the pictures?

Originally posted by Dave Rabbit
The idiots and fools will always end up biting the cheese.

Dave

Absolutely and i have to agree with Dave 100%. I have not been here too long but I have seen then come and go. There are still those that do the 1-line "hoax - BS - etc - etc" posts. BUT i have also notices that many of our long time members just ignore that sort of post, for the most part, and move forward with the "job at hand" which is to give enough space for the OP to prove his case and then climb in, and with much wit and educated proof, debunk in the proper way.

Like a baboon/monkey, if you want to catch a monkey or baboon, put some salt in a small hole, but don't jump out the tree to catch him before he puts his hand in the whole cos he will run away. Wait for him to grab the salt and with his fist closed he can't get his hand out and you have him for sure.

Originally posted by Springer
When someone comes to ATS with an experience or a "story" to tell they WILL RECEIVE THE COURTESY AND THE ABILITY TO SHARE THEIR EXPERIENCE WITHOUT BEING ACCUSED OF HOAXING, CALLED A LIAR, RUDELY INTERROGATED, BADGERED OR ILL TREATED IN ANY WAY.

Easy solution here-

Do a better job of policing potentially fraudulent claims.

Granted, its up to the members to accept, prove, or disprove and claims made. However, when they look like they're written by 11 year olds and make absolutely no sense, for god's sake at least have a mod post in the thread and run IPs to see if the poster has done the same thing before.

So many of us get so tired of all of the "im fred n im a angel from venus here 2 give u nowlege about iluminati" posts. Want a better response? Police your board better! Takes too much time? Hire more mods! This behavior that you disaprove of is a creature of your own creation.

Originally posted by Reality Hurts
So many of us get so tired of all of the "im fred n im a angel from venus here 2 give u nowlege about iluminati" posts. Want a better response? Police your board better! Takes too much time? Hire more mods! This behavior that you disaprove of is a creature of your own creation.

Interesting concept. However we are not babysitters. It's the responsibillity of the members to post with decorum. That's what everyone agreed to when registering. THAT is the bottom line.

Also, I would say theres a BIG difference between this board and your average Counterstrike, Halo boards elsewhere. We hold ourselves to a higher ideal, and on occasion we fail.
I would ask that people who visit other boards, and comment on them, remember who you are when you come here. We are intelligent, and can have intelligent discussions.
Treat people as if you were face to face with them , instead of having the anonymity the Net offers.

Maybe the negative person that feels that way jus needs a hug.... from a Kodiak bear!!! I love the topics on here even if they may be far fetch sometimes.. keeps our minds working and our hearts pounding.. later friends-

[edit on 23-8-2007 by Isaw1B4u]

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
Just my two cents, I told my UFO story several times and no one questioned it.
Maybe it was the pictures?

Maybe it was the truth.

I don't mean to interrupt this love fest but there are reasons that some posters jump on OP's and I think the main one is that they are tired of seeing the same scenarios rehashed over and over with some new genius thinking he can fool everyone into believing his story.

MrPenny's 95% estimate on recognizing hoaxes is pretty accurate IMO. How do I know? Because I was there and I agreed with his assessment every time. I can also tell you that while he does have a way with words, he is not out and out cruel to anyone. You want proof of his record? You expect him to go back and dig thru all those threads to prove this point? Maybe if he were new here that would be an understandable request but I think he's proven himself enough over the past year or so.

As for this mouse cheese thing and learning form letting the story play out. That's fine for newer members that haven't seen these again and again but it also wastes page after page of space on the server as well. If some members have the ability to read hoaxes better than others, why hold it against them? IMO there are many here that could tell a hoax from the initial OP post almost 100% of the time. You know who you are but don't want to ruffle any feathers in this thread and I don't blame you.

One thing I will agree with, being rude and offensive is not good at all but where is the line of rudeness? Is saying the word "hoax" before the 10th page rude? I don't think so, although I do think telling someone to "get lost" or calling them names or anything else in that vein is pretty shabby. I think we all hope we know where that line is.

However, I fear that some very creative and spontaneous minds may be stifled right here because of the unknown civility factor as many just don't realize that they are doing anything wrong in their passionate posting. Then there's the joking. Jokes, although most often just good natured ribbing are commonly looked upon as flagrant insults when in fact they can serve as a word foil for those that want to say something they shouldn't but instead turn to comedy. IMO these well placed comedic posts help to lighten the mood and calm an otherwise irate poster/s. I've seen where a funny barb has gotten a thread back on track before. I've also seen and been given warnings before for just downright funny stuff that was taken out of context.

We need some sort of floating policy IMO and not some stringent policed state. The occasional joke should be allowed as well as using the word "hoax" before page 10.

JMO

reply to post by jbondo


Great post jbondo.

You are not a hoax.

Originally posted by intrepid
Interesting concept. However we are not babysitters. It's the responsibillity of the members to post with decorum. That's what everyone agreed to when registering. THAT is the bottom line.

Yes, personal responsibility is a good thing, I agree. However, many members are likely not even adults, some probably under 13. You can ask them to be nice, but the maturity level just isn't there. Regardless of what they agreed to, you just aren't always going to get every member to comply. You can say things like "decorum" and "responsibility" all day and have the same result as talking to a stack of bricks.

You can't tell me that ATS, as a whole i.e. members, staff, etc, aren't responsible for the deterioration. The solution? As I said, hire more mods and police the site better. That way the staff is leading the charge and taking action, not just talking. Lead by example.



Side note- If I sound angry, its because I am. I like this site, I'm proud to be a member, but lately I'm growing weary of it looking like a joke. And I'm NOT criticizing the staff, I'm just saying that more needs to be done.