Isolationism Is America's Answer

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Yes, I do... My opinion remains the same

Look, if you look at how Fascism,Socialism, Communism, all of that crap evolves, you will notice that it all winds up evolving into each other. Fascism eventually evolves into socialism. Socialism eventually evolves into fascism, et cetera.

If fascism evolves into socialism, it is because the people have crushed a dictatorial state apparatus. If socialism evolves into fascism, its becasuse a heavy state mechanism has crushed the powers of democratic action (in other words, crushed the voice and the will of the people.)

But again, we just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Inspiteof, well, judging from most of your posts, you seem to want to believe socialism is some sort of utopian government. IT'S NOT!! It never has been; it never will be. It is one of the more corrupt forms of government in existence.


All it is good for is making a dependent society. It leaves the door wide open for some lunatic to say, "Hey, just do what the status quo demands, and we will take care of you. You step out of line ONE time, and we will crush you." It's no good..


[edit on 30-8-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 30-8-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Inspiteof, well, judging from most of your posts, you seem to want to believe socialism is some sort of utopian government. IT'S NOT!! It never has been; it never will be. It is one of the more corrupt forms of government in existence.


All it is good for is making a dependent society. It leaves the door wide open for some lunatic too say, "Hey, just do what the status quo demands, and we will take care of you. You step out of line ONE time, and we will crush you." It's no good..


[edit on 30-8-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

I understand your position.

My stance is more anarcho-syndicalist than pure socialist or pure democrat. I just see more benefit with the labour controlling the means of production and the dristribution of the wealth, than some oligarchic corporation.

As for socialism being the most corrupt system, i think all systems are corrupt, because humans are corrupt. When we see weakness, we exploit it.

No system of governance is going to give us utopia i dont think we as a species is ment for such a thing. But thats not to mean we shouldnt strive for the best we can do.

Capitalism has lead us down a destructive path, both socially and enviromentally, and its continued use around the world will lead to the fall of our species and our planet as we know it.

Giving this a much deserved bump so that members who may have missed it get the opportunity to relish in the greatness of this thread.



jasn

reply to post by SimiusDei


Simius, as much as the world hates us, I think people like me, who are serious about America literally becoming isolationist, scare the hell out of most. In other words, too many people want it both ways. They want America to "stay out of their business," but they also want America to continue to be the first to respond whenever there is a natural disaster in the world, et cetera. Under my vision, they'd get the first thing of "America staying out of their business," but not necessarily the second. I think that frightens some people, even Americans...

[edit on 14-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Yet another reason why America's only choice may be to pull away from the emerging world...

Not only is it not safe to be an American abroad, it is not tolerated! The majority of Americans I meet while traveling admit to the same lie as I do: “I am, uh… Canadian.” We deny our nationality to avoid the scowls, jeers, lectures, and sometimes violence from other foreigners. In the last six years, I have traveled to Africa twice, backpacked Southeast Asia and Central America and lived a brief time in Europe for a total of 12 different countries. Above all, one thing has been made very clear to me: The world hates us.

Why even bother?

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


um... you can blame bush for that. when i tell people that i'm an american i get mixed reactions that always end in "...um...do you like bush?"
if i say no, i tend to get a positive response.

speaker, i must point something out. the US meddled in the world for its own interests so often and it's getting blowback now because of it. the problem wasn't participating in world affairs, the problem was becoming the world's #1 sponsor of terrorism.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
. the problem wasn't participating in world affairs, the problem was becoming the world's #1 sponsor of terrorism.

That argument didn't pop up until after 9/11... Before 9/11, it was always because we "meddled in other's affairs too much." So, basically, America is damned no matter what it does or what happens to it. Isolationism, as the title of my thread clearly indicates, is America's answer.

I am just looking forward to the day when those who are like minded, force the hands of our ignorant politicians and open their eyes to see that is our answer.

[edit on 15-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


No doubt!


You and I are some scary bastids!


I'm all for the isolationism of the United States. I believe a "candidate" for president could advocate putting babies on spikes (sorry, eddie izzard reference haha) and the isolationism of the United States in the same breath and i'd be hard pressed not to vote for him/her/it.


For some reason, I feel that you and I have a duty to keep this thread alive.



Jasn

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
. the problem wasn't participating in world affairs, the problem was becoming the world's #1 sponsor of terrorism.

That argument didn't pop up until after 9/11...

then you're unfamiliar with the works of noam chomsky. he's been saying it for ages and backing it up with plenty of evidence.

Before 9/11, it was always because we "meddled in other's affairs too much." So, basically, America is damned no matter what it does or what happens to it. Isolationism, as the title of my thread clearly indicates, is America's answer.

no, not installing puppet dictators, overthrowing illegitimate regimes, and adhering to the international laws that we set up is the answer.

I am just looking forward to the day when those who are like minded, force the hands of our ignorant politicians and open their eyes to see that is our answer.

i'm sorry, but you're being the ignorant one here. your arguments are based off of a skewed view without significant supporting evidence.
show me an instance where the US acted altruistically and was slammed for it.

the real answer isn't isolationism, it's called following the rules we set up for the rest of the nations to follow.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

i'm sorry, but you're being the ignorant one here.
the real answer isn't isolationism, it's called following the rules we set up for the rest of the nations to follow.

Really? The difference between you and I is that I have genuine concern for my homeland. I don't subscribe to some globalist "My wealth should be your wealth" utopian ideology.I don't want to see my nation attacked just because some other nation has a perpetual hard on fo rthe United States of America.

The only way to avoid such an attack is for America to lessen its role as a "world player" and to defend its own. Let the rest of the world do as it will...

[edit on 17-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

YEAH, BUDDY!!!!

Is American Isolationism on the Rise?
Americans show growing signs of wanting to withdraw from an increasingly complex and frightening world. Is the isolationism of earlier decades about to return? And what would the consequences be?
by Melvin Rhodes

This is not going away

This feeling is not going to go away. As a matter of fact, I think as anti-Americanism increases, a sentiment of preferred isolationism will continue to increase here in the U.S...

Isolationism has long been a characteristic of the American state of mind, either as official policy or a subliminal substratum that outcrops from time to time as "America First" or "Fortress America" movements.

Source

Too bad it hasn't, as of yet, filtered into our politics...

Americans have no burning zeal to spread Coke and McDonalds throughout the cosmos, but the profit motive has done just that. Ditto American movies, TV shows, and pop music

How True!!

Most Americans couldn't care less whether other parts of the world shared Coke or McDonalds with us. Americans, most anyway, would prefer to just have what we have here, and let others do the same.

We have been suddenly made aware how vulnerable our open society is to an enemy within, our hospitality to immigrants telling tales of persecution. We are amazed that attackers with murder in their hearts could live for years in this welcoming country, as employees, colleagues, neighbors, shopping in the supermarket, working out in the health club, only to leave one day to hijack a jet and fly it into the World Trade Center chanting "God is Great" and "Death to America." It's beyond beliefãit's beyond our belief. And it's likely beyond the ability of the Ad Council to restrain them with images of America the Good.

More Truth

But now we're returning to normal. The enemy is inside the gates, somewhere, but life goes on. Isolationism is a dream, terrorism a nightmare that must be lived with.

A dream worth having

Well SOT it sounds to me as though you're under the impression that anyone in power cares what you think.

Do you think Halliburton, Exxon etc are unhappy with the current situation in Iraq????

War and militarism are big business!! The military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned against are running the show and increasingly they are without allegiance or borders. Cheap labor rules and the good ole USA is being dumped by the elite. They are moving on to larger profit margins.

I agree with you in principle regarding isolationism but as mentioned previously more along the lines of non-interventionist state. I would also like to cut our military budget in half or by 2/3. Do you realize what we could do with those funds??? Healthcare, education and developing opportunities for our own citizens!!!

A national goal of clean renewable energy and complete energy self sufficiency should be the Apollo project for this decade. Instead of military service a national service should be required of all citizens and this labor could be used to achieve this goal.

Dump Nafta Gatt etc and strive for workers rights throughout the world by restoring tarriffs. This simple act would protect American jobs and stop the exploitation of cheap labor abroad. Prosecute and punish employers that hire illegal immigrants and guess what our immigration problem will disappear. Buy you know that would mean a living or fair wage for all work...

I don't think the powers that be would go for any of this

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
Well SOT it sounds to me as though you're under the impression that anyone in power cares what you think.

They don't have to care about what I personally think, but when the majority think it, it's a whole other matter. Americans are increasingly becoming isolationist; whether it's the majority as of yet, I don't know. However there is a large bloc of the population which has isolationist tendencies..

Cudos to keeping your thread going. Its good to see someone stick to their guns regardless of how unpopular the stance is.

I stated my position a while ago in this thread (page 1) and it hasnt changed. Isolationism isnt the answer, the US does not have the industry (energy or argibusiness) to support itself at this point. It would take a large number of reforms (including a huge budget slash of the Armed Services, something I've advocated since my inception on this site) to fund such a move.

Do you really believe the hubris of US leaders when it comes to Foreign Policy decisions?

Do you really believe that US intervention is goodhearted in its intent but lacks somekind of forsight in its actions?

I would really like to see an answer to maddnessinmysoul's question

show me an instance where the US acted altruistically and was slammed for it.

It seems people tend to lean toward polar thinking --- black and white. Personally, I don't think it's that simple. There are an infinite range of grays between those two poles.

There are a great many good reasons why we don't want to become isolationist. But by the same token, we certianly don't want to continue our current policy of sticking our nose in everyone else's business. We also do not need to have our military posted all over the world.

My position is that we bring everything home (our military), mind our own business, trade with everyone and interfere in the affairs of no one. If we are threatened we have more than enough capacity to defend ourselves. By not pouring trillions of dollars into foreign aide in exchange for military access, by saving billions by not having to support militray installations all over the world, by not having to borrow tens-of-billions of dollars and mortgaging our country we would rapidly become the most economically powerful and secure nation on earth. We would have the financial resources to develop solutions to our oil dependence. Let other countries bankrupt themselves, why should we?

It doesn't have to be black-or-white. Sometimes judicious moderation is the key.



[edit on 18-12-2007 by jtma508]

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

Do you really believe that US intervention is goodhearted in its intent but lacks somekind of forsight in its actions?

In 90% of the cases, yes, I do...

To say that such incursions as the one into Iraq was anything other than to fulfill self interest would probably be naive. However, how is being the first nation to respond to the tsunami disaster fulfilling self interest? How was liberating Europe during WW2 self interest? How was supporting Afghanistan against Russia self interest?

Originally posted by jtma508
My position is that we bring everything home (our military), mind our own business, trade with everyone and interfere in the affairs of no one. If we are threatened we have more than enough capacity to defend ourselves.

That's basically where I stand. I say we pick up our toys come home and if anyone decided to interfere with our affairs, blast them.. It's really that simple.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Really? The difference between you and I is that I have genuine concern for my homeland.

i do care about my homeland, you just have a myopic view of what your homeland is. you can't see the forest because you're too focused on the trees.

maybe i just have a different perspective on things because i was born in one nation and raised in another, but i consider america to be my homeland as much as, if not more, the nation of my birth.

I don't subscribe to some globalist "My wealth should be your wealth" utopian ideology.

that's not the globalist ideology, it's more "my opportunity should be your opportunity"
it's about giving everyone an equal chance.
don't you think america can compete?

I don't want to see my nation attacked just because some other nation has a perpetual hard on fo rthe United States of America.

isolation wouldn't help with perpetual hatred.

The only way to avoid such an attack is for America to lessen its role as a "world player" and to defend its own. Let the rest of the world do as it will...

then we go to regress and stagnation, that's just lovely. the wealthy get wealthier and the poor that have access to limited resources die out.

honestly, this just looks like you're asserting that you have a right to special privileges because of where you were born. that americans have some right because of the nation of their birth is no better than saying a man rules a nation because his father was the one who ruled before him.