Isolationism Is America's Answer

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
falsehoods from your rear, i've pointed them out, and you've stopped responding to me because of that.

What "falsehood" have I "pulled from my rear," Madness? Please, praytell, do tell.

[edit on 20-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

i'll quote them with quote the refutation i put up

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Honestly, how is it that America is somehow obligated to allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to come over here from wherever and drain it dry?

...immigration has never led to "draining dry" of an economy, legal or illegal. the US economy actually seems to thrive on immigration surges.

1: the "draining dry" falsehood that has been repeated since the time of irish immigrants

I tell you what you do, go to Europe and try to take advantage of their "social services" and see how successful you are.. Oh, but America is still "mean and hateful," right? Uh, yeah, I hear ya. (Sarcasm)

i'm taking advantage of them quite well, as are my russian, chinese, and ethiopian national friends in malta.

educate yourself before pulling rants out of thin air

2: your obvious lack of education on european social services (of which i actually have first hand experience)

the previous time was your baseless accusation about mediamatters, but that was another thread.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
[
1: the "draining dry" falsehood that has been repeated since the time of irish immigrants

so, madnes, you are trying to say that people coming over here ILLEGALLY, regardless of where they come from, and taking advantage of amenities that American CITIZENS don't even get isn't draining our system dry. Please do provide some LOGIC behind your "reasoning."

By the way, how in the hell are you "modest." You're anything but, with all due respect.

[edit on 20-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Isolationism died a well deserved death on Dec. 7th, 1941, if not before. We as a nation can not hide from the world like some ostrich burying its head in the sand hoping the big bad, ungrateful world will go away.

The world is far too small now, the world, whether they like it or not, is somewhat dependant upon us, as we are on them.

Isolationism will hide us from the big bad wolf, until he kicks down our door.

Originally posted by seagull


Isolationism will hide us from the big bad wolf, until he kicks down our door.

And I am telling you that when he does, we should show him/them just what being bad is all about, much like we did in WW2...

[edit on 20-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


Isn't it better, though, to keep him from doing that in the first place? By engaging in some form of diplomacy, or using other means of prevention, rather than having him come through the door?

This might have worked, notice I said might have, one hundred and fifty years ago; when it took months to get anywhere in the world. But in today's world of hours to anywhere travel, and instantaneous communications, it just won't work. We are all far too interconnected with each other. To do so would irrepairably harm both us and the rest of the world.

I think, again, we're coming to the difference between isolationism and anti-interventionist.

A lot of people who call themselves "isolationist" are simply anti-interventionist.

I am anti-interventionist, not isolationist.

I think we should trade peacefully with all, offer humanitarian aid when needed, and otherwise generally mind our own business.

Neither I am a pacifist - I am more an admirer of the type of well-armed neutrality exemplified by the Swiss and the Swedes.

reply to post by seagull


Exactly. The last time America dabbled with isolationism cost the lives of 2,345 US military personnel and 57 American civilians, with almost 1,500 more injured when Pearl Harbour was attacked. These casualties occurred in just one day. They paid the ultimate price for America to learn a very costly lesson... surely it would be a grave insult to their memory to seriously advocate a return to isolationism.

If the United States had looked outward and engaged then it's quite possible that Pearl Harbour would never have happened. As tempting as it may look, I really don't think isolationism holds any real answers for the problems that the United States is facing - it is a mirage, a delusion. It ignores problems, but does not solve them - they are still there, festering and gaining momentum. American power and influence will be sapped by nations such as China, Russia and India and the US would never get these back.

reply to post by Ste2652

Yeah, and being involved with the world has cost us almost 4000 civilian lives, 9/11, and about 10,000 lives of our soldiers so far...

[edit on 22-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


Do you honestly think that those lives might not have been lost anyway? Al Queda and its ilks hate us not so much for our involvement, though that is a factor, they also hate the lifestyles, the religion, the freedom of choice, etc...all of which would have been there to hate whether the US had been involved in the ME.

Originally posted by seagull
Do you honestly think that those lives might not have been lost anyway? Al Queda and its ilks hate us not so much for our involvement, though that is a factor, they also hate the lifestyles, the religion, the freedom of choice, etc...all of which would have been there to hate whether the US had been involved in the ME.

I honestly can't say that without the U.S interaction with the rest of the world that these, in my opinion, very wicked people would have acted as they did. No, I can't say that they would have. I am not in the "Let's all blame America camp" either. As a matter of fact, I'm in the opposite camp. I say, "You know what, a large segment of the world wants us to back out of the world affairs... By all means, let's do it!!! Then we will see what's what." I guess some would say that I am patriotic to the extent that the rest of the world could be going to hell in a handbasket, and as long as America rested in its own isolationist haven, unharmed, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. The rest of the world will do as it will do, regardless.

[edit on 22-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 22-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Some will look at my previous post and say, "Wow, you're pretty heartless!!" No, I'm just tired of my nation getting the blunt of the blame for every wrong thing in this world.

Honestly, for anyone to think that America will ever be viewed in a positive light as long as it tries to be a power player in the world are only fooling themself. It matters not whether America does something positive or negative, America will always be critiqued.. Any positive we do or have ever done has always been, and will always be, viewed by others as being done with "ulterior motives."

I'm just tired of it.. So are an increasing number of other Americans.

[edit on 22-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth



Trust me, I'm most definitely not in that camp either...I think America's place, rightly or wrongly, is out in the world.

Originally posted by seagull

...I think America's place, rightly or wrongly, is out in the world.

Well, apparently that still is the opinion of the majority.. However, I have to wonder how much longer that is going to be the case. The isolationist viewpoint is ever growing in the U.S...

[edit on 22-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

I think, really, that we are living in a world where it is going to be a very dangerous game if America does much more than trade with other nations. That, being the case, any assertion that America can continue to play its hand and live in peace is a pipedream...



[edit on 22-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Some will look at my previous post and say, "Wow, you're pretty heartless!!" No, I'm just tired of my nation getting the blunt of the blame for every wrong thing in this world.

Don't let it get to you so much. You know that every bad thing in the world isn't America's fault. After all, the hardest person to blame is yourself... the US is an easy and convenient target for many. It's a shame that people aren't more grateful, but so what? Rise above it - the Americans are a generous and kind-hearted people as a whole (that is my experience of them anyway) and I hope that spirit shows in American policies towards the rest of the world in the coming decades.

US foreign policy isn't perfect. There have been many mistakes, squandered opportunities and poor decisions. But find me a nation whose foreign policy hasn't got those elements! The US is a huge force for good in the world and I for one think the world would be a poorer place if America turned to isolationism. I think all that would do would mean that the next generation would have to face the problems instead of us... and by that time, they could have grown much, much worse.

Ste, I wish more felt as you do.. Of course, I'll be the first one to admit that I think the media here in the states blows the "anti-Americanism" bit a little out of proportion...

I don't really think that people around the world "hate" Americans, as a matter of fact, I have been told by many who have travelled abroad that they couldn't have been better treated.

However, I suppose that my biggest fear is that America is going to get itself into a situation that it cannot get out of; the only solution to that,as far as I can tell, is isolationism.


[edit on 22-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


show me EVIDENCE that it drains the system dry, you're the one asserting that it does.

and why aren't you going to address the second point i made? people from all over the world come to malta and other european nations and benefit from the social services here, yet you repeated the falsehood that they couldn't in the name of making a point.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
[show me EVIDENCE that it drains the system dry, you're the one asserting that it does.

At that time, the illegal alien population was estimated to be about five million persons. The estimated fiscal cost of those illegal aliens to the federal, state and local governments was about $33 billion. This impact was partially offset by an estimated $12.6 billion in taxes paid to the federal, state and local governments, resulting in a net cost to the American taxpayer of about $20 billion every year. This estimate did not include indirect costs that result from unemployment payments to Americans who lost their jobs to illegal aliens willing to work for lower wages. Nor did it include lost tax collections from those American workers who became unemployed. The study estimated those indirect costs from illegal immigration at an additional $4.3 billion annually.

Source


Oh, and, uh, there's plenty more from whence that cometh...

[edit on 22-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


i'm sorry, but this study doesn't take into account the economic advantages of illegal immigration... that whole "working for lower wages thing"
and i've yet to see any evidence of an illegal immigrant actually taking a job that an american would want..

also, i am going to argue bias, do you have evidence that supports this from an agenda-free source?