Jail Nation

Couple of points I'd like to make
1) there's no such thing as a victimless crime
2)do nothing wrong and you won't get arrested

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

I've posted lots of stats here about incarceration - and the fact is, everybody in prison has broken the law.

Originally posted by budski
1) there's no such thing as a victimless crime

Who exactly, not including myself (as it is an entirely voluntary action), am I hurting if I buy marijuana and smoke it? Who's the victim?

Originally posted by budski
I've posted lots of stats here about incarceration - and the fact is, everybody in prison has broken the law.

Have you never heard of miscarriages of justice, unlawful imprisonment, wrongful arrest???? The Guildford 4 and the Birmingham 6.

Why do you think they need "innocence projects" in US?

I've just had to go back to double check you weren't joking - seemingly not unless your sarcasm is too subtle to distinguish.

No victimless crimes ? Give me a break!! Thats funny!! The poster of that rare wisdom cannot give ONE real reply that could have any meaning. No way. What a statement, unreal. There are victims of the law every day all over this nation and examples of it are everywhere. Attorneys have their entire practices devoted to police misconduct, thats how common it is.

And for ' crime "s like cannabis possession, which was a political ploy from the beginning and totally immoral, who is the victim? There ARE no victims, only those who run into a cop!! Only by adding cops to peopls lives is there a problem. Bad laws deserve NO respect; thats why the penalties for simple possession are so low in all but the most redneck and backwoods places on earth, including the States that are still in the dark ages. But there are always those goody two shoes law and order types who will obey ANy law no matter how stupid and evil: If they passed a law saying that you had to bow and kiss the ring of every cop that crosses your path, no doubt that there would be those bent over and puckered up to do their part in ' upholding the law '.

Gambling, prostitution, drugs, these are all activities that have always been historically suppressed by the Curch, religious authorities, and the laws that govern them came directly from pressure from religious and business groups who had a vested interest either in the competition or the souls of the ' lost people ' who needed more than Jesus to be happy in life!! Thats what it boils down to: the religious discouragement of activities that were considered ' sinful ' melded into laws prohibiting these behaviors.

Of course everyone knew it was bound to fail and only to placate the right wingers, and that no one would obey those laws, but it makes money for the system, and gioves the politicians a way to say that they are moral also..see? Slavish obedience to every law passed by corrupt and immoral politicians is the mark of a slave and a person that is totally subservient to the masters of their destiny.

No one should obey bad laws and no one should fear standing up to injustice; the fact that stupid and immoral laws, like those that prohibit personal conduct of any type by adults as long as no physical harm is done. Why should it be the business of ANY government what we do in private and with out lives and minds and bodies? How dare any politician try and say what type of substances we can use and to what degree. The whole nature of personal conduct laws is one of repression and societal immaturity. That is why in Europe and older nations there are much less foolish laws like we have here in the land of the televangelists and Falwells spewing nonsense about the devils that inhabit our desires.

No, in mature nations, little attention is paid to matters of personal choice, and for good reason. It is beyond insulting to assume that we need the nanny state to tell us what to smoke and drink and snort and swallow; better they use their time and energy finding out how the Twin Towers turned into flour.

I will never submit to bad and insane laws and live a less full life just so I can pin a gold star on my chest and tell myself what a good mouseketeer I was today..I hope that every cop that busts someone for nonviolent ' crimes ' chokes on the evil they are supporting; every politician who is too weak to repeal senseless and stupid laws that accomplish nothing should be removed from office and made to spen the time that they would impose on peaceful and innocent people who just do not submit to stupidity in a cell wishing they could undo their corrupt past.

CHANGE the laws that are bad; never submit to them!! If you cannot get them changed, whcih is the norm due to corruption and weakness, then ignore them and live your life. Shgowing disrespect for bad laws is all the respect they deserve. Sooner or later this nation will grow up and get out of its diapers and into intelligent policy, and wil psuh the religious zaelots out of the picture when deciding what the people really want and need.

Originally posted by budski
Couple of points I'd like to make
1) there's no such thing as a victimless crime

and you're the authority??
i shall add people that think like you to the list of problems then....
no victimless crime.......sure bud

eyewitness, i am with you all the way.

i know so many people who don't smoke grass for example simply cause it is illega. my mother is one of them. she has told me before that the day it's legalized, she'll burn one with me...
i just think it's wild how some people bow down to what is written.
as of what, 1913 it has been illegal. take it off the books and it is ok again?

i think there are numerous, victimless crimes.
most of them are used to generate money for the state.
seen plenty of that

reply to post by Johnmike


And who gets hurt from me going to a prostitute? Two consenting adults who negotiate a transaction. By the way I have never visited a hooker.

Originally posted by theebdk
And who gets hurt from me going to a prostitute? Two consenting adults who negotiate a transaction. By the way I have never visited a hooker.

No one. I don't believe in prostitution - personally, I believe in monogamy and sex only after a relationship has been established - but as long as both parties are consenting and not coerced in any way, no one is a victim. No one is hurt.

[edit on 22-8-2007 by Johnmike]

Why is everyone so sure that marijuana is a victimless crime?

it's against the law, the law costs money to enforce - thats taxpayers money.
criminal gangs import marijuana, amongst other drugs, this in turn provides money for other criminal activities, which in turn costs taxpayers money.
How many people are caught up in gang violence as a direct result of gang warfare over drugs territory?

Just because a victim isn't lying in the street bleeding, doesn't make it a victimless crime.

As for prostitution being a victimless crime - I won't even dignify that with an answer - the links between prostitution/crime/drugs/violence/HIV/STD's etc etc are all well established and documented. To think otherwise shows a profound lack of knowledge of crime and social issues.

This thread isn't about changing the law to suit people who promote marijuana use, it's about the population levels of US prisons and the reasons for this.
Marijuana possession/importing/dealing is currently against the law - no matter what people think of the law, that is how it stands.
The law is not the subject of the thread.

Tell the National Park Service Park Rangers being shot at at the Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument that drugs are a "victimless crime" as 7.62mm bullets whiz past their heads on a daily basis forcing them to go on patrol with M4 carbines and assault vests and shut down whole areas of the park to the public.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
Tell the National Park Service Park Rangers being shot at at the Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument that drugs are a "victimless crime" as 7.62mm bullets whiz past their heads on a daily basis forcing them to go on patrol with M4 carbines and assault vests and shut down whole areas of the park to the public.

Are you serious? Tell me, if the laws were different, and the marijuana producers were able to grow these plants legally in their own fields, would that park ranger have been out there with his "M4 carbine" or whatever? Do you regularly see the military patrolling corn fields?

The use of any drug only affects the people using it, and maybe their families if it gets excessive, but certainly doesn't end in busting caps unless there are strictly enforced laws against it.

reply to post by Rasobasi420


Be that as it may - this is NOT a thread about the various merits of legalising drugs.

The fact is, they ARE illegal at the moment, and the use/dealing/possession/importing may contribute to the levels of incarceration in the US.
While they are illegal, criminal gangs use them and the money they make from drugs to further their own criminal enterprises.

There are plenty of other threads discussing the merits of legalising drugs
if that's what you want to discuss

reply to post by budski


I think it's a very important piece of the puzzle though. While these acts are criminal, and result in the imprisonment of otherwise innocent individuals, it does add to the prison population.

You say that this thread isn't about changing laws to suit individual agendas, but most of the laws in place today are there to suit the agenda of one lobby or another.

Simply put, if marijuana, coc aine, heroin and other drugs were legalized the prison population would not as high as it is today based solely on arrests made from possession. That's not even touching on the number of arrests made from violent crime associated with the illegal trafficking of the product.

reply to post by budski


This thread is about the massive disparity between the US's jail population and, well, the rest of the planet's. One major contributor to this is the asinine "War on Drugs" and it's absurdly enthusiastic enforcement. Thus discussion of our modern-day Prohibition Redux is appropriate for this thread.

Originally posted by budski
Why is everyone so sure that marijuana is a victimless crime?


^^^cause it is.......

it's against the law, the law costs money to enforce - thats taxpayers money.

^^^^it's still a victimless crime..


criminal gangs import marijuana,

^^^^i agree, that does happen but that is not the only source....say my neighbor grows a few plants, say 4 at a time for his personal use....who is the victim? it is a victimless crime....the violence and all that started when it was made illegal

Marijuana possession/importing/dealing is currently against the law - no matter what people think of the law, that is how it stands.
The law is not the subject of the thread.

the law has to be part of the topic when you have a thread titled 'jail nation'..it is part of the subject to talk about why people are in jail.

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by Rasobasi420

 

Be that as it may - this is NOT a thread about the various merits of legalising drugs.

The fact is, they ARE illegal at the moment,

lots of things are illegal at the moment..that does not mean the laws are just. does not mean that is how it has always been or always be..

let me ask you, are you the type that is against something, anything just cause it is illegal?
for example, if they did legalize grass tomorrow and let every offender in for posession out of jail, would you all of a sudden be cool with it?

also, you seem to have a real attitude whenever someone brings this up.
you can't talk about a huge portion of th epopulation being in jail without discussing reasons why they are there, the laws, etc.

please answer my question

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
The use of any drug only affects the people using it, and maybe their families if it gets excessive, but certainly doesn't end in busting caps unless there are strictly enforced laws against it.

agreed. the propoganda will have us belive one thing....i still see them. if you smoke a joint, then you are promoting violence, blah blah...
utter hogwash...it is not that simple across the board.

there are many a recreational smoker/grower that in no way commits any acts of violence and there is NO victim....yet, if the cops get a whiff, that person is in jail..

sorry but this is a SERIOUS problem and a HUGE part of why so many people are in jail in the US today...
absolutely

Originally posted by xmotex
[ Thus discussion of our modern-day Prohibition Redux is appropriate for this thread.

hell, i would say it is ESSENTIAL to this thread.....
some don't agree i guess.

Actually boondock, I'm pro legalisation - but that doesn't alter the fact that it's illegal - and if I get caught, I'll have to take my lumps like a man - because I know it's illegal, and I know the consequences of getting caught.

Opinion doesn't alter any of the facts about legality - and it doesn't mean we should be discussing the subject - I've already posted stats showing that drug possession is a minor contributor to the jail population.

Originally posted by budski
I've already posted stats showing that drug possession is a minor contributor to the jail population.

possession, maybe, but drug related crime, like drug turf war violence, or robberies are also related to the war on drugs. If drugs were legalized we'd have to remove those percentages too. The WoD is a big percentage of the prison population budski.