For what purpose is Mahmoud Ahmadinejad purposely provoking Israel and America?

I was reading an article in the China Post today which states that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has described Israel as "The Flag of Satan".

Clearly the provocative comment was unnecessary and is intended only to further agitate Israel, the United States and their allies whom already have mounting concerns regarding an Ahmadinejad lead Iran.

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Iran's refusal to cease it's nuclear program despite increased U.N. sanctions this year as well as avid protests by the Bush administration, is in itself a seemingly purposeful antagonization.

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Iran's most deliberate provocation is in that it has trained, funded and armed insurgents in Iraq to attack American, Iraqi and coalition forces. One article regarding this can be found here.

Maybe he's sick of the provocations from Israel and the United States.

Or, maybe he's just the type of "enemy" the Jews and Americans aren't use to. Maybe he's actually fed up and willing to do something other than talk.

Or, maybe he's just trying to open the world's eyes to the hypocrisy and evil ways of the Zionists?


just maybe.


Jasn

EDIT: If the citizens of the next state over from you were being unlawfully attacked and having war waged upon them, and you knew your family and your state was next.....wouldn't you try to help those neighbors in an attempt to prevent those aggressors that shouldn't be there in the first place from getting your people next?

[edit on 19-8-2007 by SimiusDei]

Thank you for your opinions SimiusDei, perhaps if you aren't too busy you could back them up with relevant links and documentation.

no problem, but while I'm gathering that for you, perhaps you could browse around ATS a bit and you should find plenty of references to back up my statements.

I'll bring you some references in a few.


Jasn

The correct word is "react", not "provoke".

Today`s story is a reaction to the absurd statements two days ago re: designating 150,000 legal members of the Iranian military as terrorists. It`s all over the breaking news page, if you want to see the timeline.

Originally posted by SimiusDei
perhaps you could browse around ATS a bit and you should find plenty of references to back up my statements.

Certainly I could do that... but that would release you from the burden of providing something substantial to validate your comments, which thus far are only stated in the context of opinion .

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By the way, I noticed your current mood as stated under your avatar... why so depressed? Cheer up buddy.

Provocation of Iran?

Former Bush Officials Accuse White House of Trying to Provoke Iran

Bush Pressures Iran

U.S. Labels Iranian Guards "Terrorists"

Israeli Takeover --- Hmm wonder who is next?

The Zionist Agenda

Those "oh so loving" Jews


I'll dig you up some more later on.

I'm not saying that Iran is in the "right" in this situation. However we, The United States, are definitely in the wrong. If Israel wants to complete it's goal of cleansing the other Arabs from the Earth, that's their issue and they should be left to fight that battle on their own. Israel is already stocked to the gills with enough nukes to wipe Iran off the map forever and the Iranians know it and they also know that Israel is going to be coming for them soon.

You know what they say....the best defense is a good offense.

The United States has NO RIGHT to be the dogs that Israel sends in first to help them achieve their agenda. As Ron Paul says, we SHOULD NOT be here to police the world.

If the Zionists and the Iranians want to turn each other's land to glass. Let them do it without our help or "defense".

Let them fight their battle and let's fix the things that need to be fixed in OUR country.


Jasn

Originally posted by seeingevil


Certainly I could do that... but that would release you from the burden of providing something substantial to validate your comments, which thus far are only stated in the context of opinion

.

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By the way, I noticed your current mood as stated under your avatar... why so depressed? Cheer up buddy.

I was just offering you a suggestion while I gathered a few links for you. Perhaps you just didn't want to burden yourself to look for opinions and/or facts that don't support your own beliefs?

HaHa, I haven't changed that in awhile, no longer depressed hahah...thanx for pointing it out. I need to go change that now.


Jasn

All of these links you've provided do nothing to validate your point that America is the provocateur of Iran, rather than vice versa...

The first link you've provided, Provocation of Iran? , is in regards to Bush's efforts to interrupt the flow of support from Iran and Syria that are providing advanced weaponry and training to our enemies in Iraq. Hardly provocative, merely justifiable defensive measures to protect American forces in Iraq.

The second link you've provided, Former Bush Officials Accuse White House of Trying to Provoke Iran, is in regards to speculation by a former security council director that Bush would like justification for "limited strikes" against Iran's nuclear and military infrastructures. Ya think? Ahmadinejad's nuclear program is operating in violation of the U.N. and is deemed a direct threat to Israel.

The third link you've provided, Bush Pressures Iran, is in regards to the Bush administration's desire to escalate pressure on Iran. Again we come to the issue of Ahmadinejad's nuclear program which is in violation of the U.N.

America wants to do something about the problem and eliminate Iran's ability to wage nuclear warfare against Israel or others, which is widely believed to be the real intention of their nuclear program.

The fourth link you've provided, U.S. Labels Iranian Guards "Terrorists", is regarding the United States naming Iran's Revolutionary Guards as terrorists. This is responsive, not provocative. The Guards are continuing their support for extremists throughout Iraq and the middle east which are responsible for American and coalition deaths there.

The fifth link you've provided, Israeli Takeover --- Hmm wonder who is next?, is nothing more than a graphical image and not deserving of an in depth response.

The sixth link you've provided, The Zionist Agenda, is merely a reprint of a propaganda article by an internet columnist which approaches the issues with conjecture and excluding relevant links to validate his viewpoints; I need say no more.

The seventh link you've provided, Those "oh so loving" Jews, is regarding the anti-Israel statements of Abu Muhammed which isn't even the person's real name but an alias. Hardly a credible source of news worthy information in all but the opinion of those who will seek out any reason to believe Israel is evil.

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I respect your right to have an opinion SimiusDei, the links you've provided however do nothing to elevate your opinions as more than... opinions. (In my opinion...

)

As an aside, it's good to know you're no longer depressed.

*Sigh* no point in trying to discuss with those who already have their mind made up.

Each of those links provide INSTANCES of United States/Israeli provocation of Israel. No, the whole articles aren't one long diatribe of U.S./Israeli provocations but I provided them because they contain examples of the United States/Israeli provocation of Iran which you asked me to provide.

I guess what really matters is where you are looking at the whole ordeal from.

The Israeli heads of state (past and present) have made it very evident that they would like nothing more than to rid the world of the Arabs and create a majority of Jews on their lands. Quotes

While I do not support Iran for the simple fact that I absolutely HATE their ideals and religious zealotry (in some instances), I am even more so opposed to Israel and their Imperialist aspirations.

As far as the Nuclear weapons programs go, Iran has every right to develop them so long as the United States and Israel possess them. For the United States and Israel to say that Iran is violating "law" by manufacturing nuclear grade weapons is nothing more than hypocrisy as the U.S. and Israel both have and manufacture them.

The United Nations is a joke. That's all I have to say about them.

My main problem with this whole ordeal is, we (meaning the United States) have NO BUSINESS in Iran or Iraq. We need to leave Israel and Iran to fight the battles they start and deal with our problems we face at home. We have so many issues in this country that need to be addressed (The Federal Reserve, our border policies, etc), yet we are out fighting wars that need not be fought by us and sending OUR citizens to die for a WHAT? I've yet to figure out even ONE valid reason we are in Iraq. And there is DEFINITELY no reason we should be going into Iran, though we will most likely end up there.

Maybe the best thing for everyone would be to just let Iran and Israel go toe to toe and see who can create the most glass in the shortest amount of time.


Jasn


EDIT: Maybe you should pull up that link you posted in your opening post of this thread. Then pull up the few I posted for you and compare them. They are both THE SAME with the exception of the fact that they are from differing viewpoints. You say that calling Israel the "Flag of Satan" is "clearly" meant to provoke the United States and Isreal...YET, calling the Iranian National Guard "terrorists" is justified and retaliatory. BAH! If what Iranians called the Isrealis is "provocation" then so is what The United States and Israel have labeled the Iranian armed forces. However, in this particular instance, the U.S. / Israelis threw the first blow.....therefore, if you are going to label either "retaliatory", it must, by default, by the Iranian comments.


Hey kettle, this is pot you black bastard.

But, you already have your mind made up and are obviously not really wanting to discuss anything but your views on the subject (I say this because of your weak "debunking" of the links I posted...I don't generally worry myself with trying to discuss with someone who uses the "Nuh UH!!!" approach to a debate.). So, I take my leave. Have fun amigo and make sure you are at the head of the line when we go invading them evil arabs in Iran.

Personally, I'm hoping for a nice bright fireworks show over there in the near future....Maybe they'll both wipe each other off the face of the earth, then they can both be happy and we can quit discussing them.

I don't know about you, but I don't like paying my taxes dollars so we can be Israels own personal militia.

[edit on 19-8-2007 by SimiusDei]

So come on then seeingevil, provide the links and the evidence that Iran is the aggressor here to back up your assertions.
Aside from rhetoric, assumptions, allegations and innuendo, the US has not been able to show any evidence of direct Iranian involvement in Iraq.
Bush has branded Iran a destabilising factor in the region, yet in Afghanistan they are thanked for their efforts and help in fighting terrorism - now that's gotta hurt GWB
The US and Israel have been arming, funding and training insurgent groups to attack Iran for quite some time yet the compliant mainstream press ignores this issue of aggression. In fact, it's state sponsored terrorism, something old Bunnypants has vowed to stamp out, but I guess it's ok when we are doing it

Originally posted by seeingevil
All of these links you've provided do nothing to validate your point that America is the provocateur of Iran, rather than vice versa...

I guess you must be right then. It was Iran that attacked and occupied our neighboring countries and has spent the last four years building huge military bases and positioning naval flotillas that could be used to stage an attack on us. They have a huge arsenal of nuclear weapons while complaining all the time to the UN that the US and Israel might have 10lbs of low grade uranium and a big bottle rocket sometime in the next 10 years, and constitute a threat to the entire world that justifies our immediate destruction. We're just reacting to their threats and provocations. Boy, I hope somebody comes along to save our asses from the Iranians.

Originally posted by SimiusDei
*Sigh* no point in trying to discuss with those who already have their mind made up.

Haha my thoughts exactly SimiusDei, my thoughts exactly... .

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Thanks for the comment in my profile, I tend to agree with you somewhat in that cats are evil. I'll always remember this Siamese mix I once had that seemed one day to just completely lose it's mind, go all wild eyed and run out of the room as if in stark terror whenever I entered. Maybe the Devil was lurking behind me or something, who knows... In any case that cat didn't remain a member of my household for very long after that point .

If you look at the political structure of Iran it should become immediately clear that the president is essentially powerless, the true source of political and military power resides with the grand ayatollah. In short Ahmadinejad is just like the president of Israel and the presidents (or the queen in the case of England, or the emperor in the case of Japan) in a lot of parlamentary systems, a figurehead and nothing more.

All his bluster and threats are hollow then, are for internal consumption. The Iranian government is very unpopular and two ways of drumming up support are to pronounce a threat (remember the lead up to the Iraqi invasion? same sort of bull hooey) or to threaten. That is what his job is then, to be the national cheer leader and to serve as a distraction from the real sources of power there.

If you really want to know what Iran is up to or planning listen to the grand Ayatollah and ignore the blowhard.

Kinda like listening to Cheney and ignoring bush minor. Not much difference, not much at all.

Originally posted by grover
If you really want to know what Iran is up to or planning listen to the grand Ayatollah and ignore the blowhard.

Isn't that the same thing as saying Bush isn't really in charge of the United States, but rather the Bankers and Illuminati are?

Originally posted by grover
If you look at the political structure of Iran it should become immediately clear that the president is essentially powerless, the true source of political and military power resides with the grand ayatollah.

All his bluster and threats are hollow then, are for internal consumption. The Iranian government is very unpopular and two ways of drumming up support are to pronounce a threat (remember the lead up to the Iraqi invasion? same sort of bull hooey) or to threaten. That is what his job is then, to be the national cheer leader and to serve as a distraction from the real sources of power there.

good analysis grover,

i see Ahmadinejad's utterings as stuff to keep their enemy, imperialist & great-satan America and the little-satan Zionist Israel, foremost on the minds of all Muslims, Arabs, Persians...

his general goal is to imbed negativity, become the populist voice of sound-bytes, which demonizes Zionism, Imperialism, occupatrion of the
Arabian peninsula by western forces & U.S. hegemony...
his rhetoric may intice many to become active in opposition to the western
world, perhaps as zealots, perhaps as insurgents, perhaps as more members of the claimed 40,000 vest-bomb martyrs ready to be missioned.


Ahmadinejad, is not working from a vacuum- - his brand of propaganda
is a direct response to ours and Israels propaganda.

reply to post by St Udio


Thanks.

What people forget is all those thousands who attend the rallies chanting death to America the great Satan...

(Satan in Islamic mythology is nothing like our version, yes he is evil, but he is more of a bumbling buffoon and a fool than anything else... hence in calling America the great Satan they are essentially calling us a great bumbling fool)

...are not there because they want to be. Generally speaking, they are enlisted, rounded up and otherwise volunteered or required to be there... kind of like the thousands who stand patiently during one of Castro's 4 hour speeches or any of the other obligatory mobs seen at rallies and protests in other totalitarian states. As such are not indicative of actual popular sentiments... if the reports are to be believed, America and American culture are very popular there.

It is the same way throughout the world as well... it is not so much America that is hated, rather it is the policies of the American government and the corporations for which it stands that they despise.

Of course tell Washington that.

With due respect to my friend SimiusDei as well as those with no desire to be my friend, I must concede that my attempt to "deny ignorance" with this thread has fallen only on biased ears.

This thread was created and intended to discuss Ahmadinejad's clearly provocative acts toward Israel and America, and what his ultimate motives may be... instead as with this other thread here, it was derailed entirely by those with anti-Bush agendas.

I regret that what could have been and should have been an above par SkunkWorks topic, was merely used as a sounding board for those indulging in their never ending smear campaign against Bush.

Respectfully,
see

You obviously have no desire to hear other opinions than your own.

Nothing happens in a vacuum especially the real politik between countries.

Given the simple fact that the United States has invaded two of its immediate neighbors and given the fact that we have issues some not so veiled threats against Iran, and given the fact that this administration' seeming inability to talk to the rest of the world, much less its precieved enemies on equal terms (Even Nixon talked to Russia and China) is it any wonder Iran sees a threat?

As for Ahmadnejad and the position of the Iranian president. I have already given a good working analysis of his office in Iran.

What more do you want; everyone to agree Iran evil bush good?

Originally posted by grover
is it any wonder Iran sees a threat?

It's not a wonder to me at all grover. If I poke a stick at a hornets nest repeatedly then I'd see quite a threat too...

Consider some of what Ahmadinejad has done to antagonize America:

Ahmadinejad has refused to back down from his nuclear program despite increased U.N. sanctions and strong American protest, he refers to one of America's most valued friends as the "Flag of Satan", and he's funding - training - and arming Iraqi insurgents that are attacking U.S. and coalition forces.

Is that not a willful little child poking a stick at the hornets nest and creating a threatening situation for himself?

[edit on 20-8-2007 by seeingevil]