Dear Reader, you are responsible for the oil wars

Originally posted by passenger

You can kill your own food, cook it over wood you cut, never step foot in an automobile again. Don’t ever buy anything manufactured.

You don’t NEED anything you don’t already have.

So DO IT!
Don't lecture us. Show us how it's done!

Friend, did you read the original post?

The point was that we are guilty. We all have blood on our hands, you included. I admit to my guilt, and I continue to do it. I carry the blood around with me, dripping to form a sticky puddle everywhere I go. Everything I do freshens the blood.

I don’t come on ATS and say "it's not my fault." I don’t try and wash the blood of.

So long as you continue to blame "them" nothing will change, that is the point.

Don’t be a hypocrite was the idea behind my original post. Stand up and admit what you are doing when you send men to go forth and kill on your behalf.

Don’t try to pass the buck, Pilot, you are guilty. You let it happen. I let it happen.

I don’t think anyone should go off and die trying to live in the wilderness, although the choice is yours if want to wash your hands.

If you choose to ignore or tolerate the blood, then just keep on doing what you are doing. I am.

Just don’t be a hypocrite.

Originally posted by popeye0314
Passenger - What were we talking about?

As far as I know a lot of people made it in this world for a long time with out modern petro-products. Are you saying that we should quit using oil and oil based products? Or are you saying that we can't? ... we are going through, but I am sure if I was born in pre-historic times I would hate the man eating lizards just as much.

I'm NOT saying that this world is the most perfect there could be. I'm not even saying I like it SO much myself.
What I am saying is that this IS IT. Most of these people decrying and denouncing it could not honestly survive without it. Maybe you could and maybe I could, but a lot of people wouldn't. Our society as we know it would end.
On a more trivial side: Wouldn't you miss ice-cream? The Super-Bowl? Nights out on the town? Power tools? Would you really be able to give all that up? Again, maybe you could but society can not. To say it could is delusional.

Originally posted by TruthWithin
So then by your logic, you should feel guilty every time someone gets murdered. You should feel guilty every time someone has their feelings hurt by getting flipped the bird.

This is taking guilt by association a BIT far, no?

Wow. No, you didn’t understand what I thought was plain English. Sorry, it is always the fault of the author when a literate person can’t follow along.

Let my try and clear it up, just for you.

It is not guilt be association.

You are guilty because you demand they do it.

YOU, friend, send "them" to foreign lands.

It is for YOU they shed blood.

In the same way you are responsible for the death of a cow, and for how it died, when you demand someone kill it on your behalf. We all know what would happen to any fast food franchise if we all stopped eating burgers, right?

They slap that nasty old cow over the head with a club and skin it because you ask them to, one dollar at time.

They slap that nasty old terrorist nation over the head and gut it because you ask them to, one gallon at a time.

They do it for you, friend.

For you, personally.

Not near you (guilt by association).

FOR you (plain old guilt).

Originally posted by cavscout

Stand up and admit what you are doing when you send men to go forth and kill on your behalf.

Don’t try to pass the buck, Pilot, you are guilty. You let it happen. I let it happen.

If you choose to ignore or tolerate the blood, then just keep on doing what you are doing. I am.

Just don’t be a hypocrite.

That's the point of being a hypocrite. Saying you do one thing and actually doing another.
I didn't do that (in this instance at least).
I don't celebrate people dying but I do accept the fact that my culture, and myself by extension, runs on oil. And further, that there are, as we speak, men and women of our Country (friends and relatives included) fighting to sustain that flow of our lifeblood.
The thing is: I revel in the gifts which they have bestowed upon me through their sacrifice. Like all warriors before them, they have sacrificied so that those in their homeland can sustain themselves as they are. I don't dishonor them by saying : "No blood for Oil" and then reaping then benefits of what they have bought so dearly. The people that disdain and diminish this gift are the ones that enrage me.

Passenger:

You are exactly right. There would be a lot of people that wouldn't be able to survive. Most (IMO) are the ones that can't or won't do what it takes to enjoy a simple less advanced life. I actually understand everything you are saying. I am just trying to point out that the current people with the power have kept us on the same coaster ride, and keep making up more majestic lies to appease us. Maybe I think differently than everyone else, but I don't want to live to be 120 years old and have someone else wiping my backside. I think as humans go, we have kinda taken the law of the jungle and turned it topsy turby. The folks that are telling us the way things are, are the same folks that couldn't survive without the gas, oil and technology. I think the way we can change the world is by electing a president that thinks the way we do. I would like to see a 70 year old farmer from the middle of Kansas thats done nothing but worked his whole life and has learned a thing or two about common sense, and put him in the oval office. The next best thing is Dr. Paul from Texas. So I am hoping that short of leaving the cities for the boonies, we can turn this boat around and learn how to combine the best of both worlds.

Originally posted by cavscout
Wow. No, you didn’t understand what I thought was plain English. Sorry, it is always the fault of the author when a literate person can’t follow along.

Don't confuse my not following you with calling you on your negligent, irresponsible and generalized ramblings on what I should feel guilty about. I use oil not because I demand it. I use it because I have to. Am I conservative with it? YES. Very. But that isn't the point. I do everything within MY OWN POWER to change things. I vote for those who want to try and solve this addiction we have. I give money to places that look for cleaner cheaper energy. I was AGAINST the war and never voted for it in the first place. Unfortunately, in order to try and change things, we have to use computers, phones, electricity and, GOD FORBID, cars! We need these things to change the status quo.

So get off your little high horse.

It is this Black/White attitude of absolutes that gets people into trouble. It is also your ego and vanity that serves the greater evil. Feel guilty for that.

[edit on 15-8-2007 by TruthWithin]

Originally posted by TruthWithin
Don't confuse my not following you with calling you on your negligent, irresponsible and generalized ramblings on what I should feel guilty about.

Sorry if I hit a nerve there, friend.

Or was it just close to home?

I use oil not because I demand it.

You demand it because you use it.

I use it because I have to.

Sir, if someone has been holding a gun to your head forcing you to use oil please let me know. If I can’t personally travel to your location and rid you of this thug, I can at least notify your local authorities.

If this is not the case then go back through the thread see what I said about the difference between a WANT and a NEED. I feel I made it clear and don’t need to waste anymore time explaining it to you.

I do everything within MY OWN POWER to change things.

I am sorry but I have to call that a lie. I hope we can still be friends.

So get off your little high horse.

I don’t have a high horse, pal. I have an SUV, like I said. AND, like I said, I am no better than any one else who uses oil. I just take responsibility for my actions. I do wish I had a high horse. I have a low horse and I am a big guy. I would love a large horse but I love my Mustang as well.

And just out of curiosity, is it really possible to have a "little high horse"?

I would tend to think of any high horse as being big. Of course, all things are relative. Maybe I could have have a thin high horse and you could have a fat high horse, and then I would be able to say that relative to your fat high horse I have a "little high horse"? Is that what you were trying to say?

It is also your ego and vanity that serves the greater evil. Feel guilty for that.

You do get it! Wow, didn’t take that long after all. My ego and vanity keep me driving and using electricity and thinking I am so special that I don’t need to kill my own food. And I do feel guilty for that. I am so glad you got it; I was beginning to think that my 8th grade education was starting to show.


[edit on 15-8-2007 by cavscout]

I'm sorry, that's just wrong. I am not responsible for oil wars, or any other wars, in any way. I never wanted anyone to fight over oil. Just because they generate the electricity I use with oil does not make me responsible for them going out and starting a war.

I would gladly give up everything that could not be made without petroleum products, and I doubt that would be much for long. If the oil dried up today, within a couple of years they would be making power with nuclear plants, wind, solar, etc. It wouldn't take long for petroleum-based plastics to be replaced with something new, either.
Cars would run off bio-fuels or electricity. You under-estimate the ingenuity of the human race.

The only reason we still use oil is so the oil-rich can get richer. They don't want to cut into their profits by re-tooling the entire industry to market a non-oil product. Somehow they got the idea that their profits are more important then the mess they're making.

If you want to go through life feeling guilty because of wars started for profit, feel free.
Your guilt, however, does not mean I or anyone else here should feel guilty about wars they had nothing to do with.

If a farmer sold all his crops, thus having no income next month, he would not be entitled to kill the farmer down the road and sell his crops to insure his profits. The same goes for the oil men. If they were to drain our oil supplies dry, then they go out of business, and the next guys take their turn at bat. That's business. Owning a huge company does not guarantee that you will own that company 10 years from now. The oil dries up, you diversify, and adapt to the current situation, or go bust. You don't start a war to continue enjoying your current lifestyle.

That is what I would expect if I were in the oil business, or any business.

So no, I'm not responsible for their oil wars. That's a crock.

Originally posted by subject x
You don't start a war to continue enjoying your current lifestyle.

But they did start a war to continue enjoying their current lifestyle.

And not just for their lifestyle, but yours as well.

And they would stop if you and I would just let them. Or make them. But like I said, we keep on demanding it, one gallon at a time.

So no, I'm not responsible for their oil wars. That's a crock.

No, it would be a crock if "they" used all that oil and you none.


[edit on 15-8-2007 by cavscout]

Originally posted by cavscout

Originally posted by TruthWithin
So then by your logic, you should feel guilty every time someone gets murdered. You should feel guilty every time someone has their feelings hurt by getting flipped the bird.

This is taking guilt by association a BIT far, no?

Wow. No, you didn’t understand what I thought was plain English. Sorry, it is always the fault of the author when a literate person can’t follow along.

Let my try and clear it up, just for you.

It is not guilt be association.

You are guilty because you demand they do it.

YOU, friend, send "them" to foreign lands.

It is for YOU they shed blood.

In the same way you are responsible for the death of a cow, and for how it died, when you demand someone kill it on your behalf. We all know what would happen to any fast food franchise if we all stopped eating burgers, right?

They slap that nasty old cow over the head with a club and skin it because you ask them to, one dollar at time.

They slap that nasty old terrorist nation over the head and gut it because you ask them to, one gallon at a time.

They do it for you, friend.

For you, personally.

Not near you (guilt by association).

FOR you (plain old guilt).

It is not for us they send troops for, it is for their pockets! I admit we need
oil, but we were getting along fine before this war started. So it is not us
that are sending in the troops now, it is George Bush. Did you see a sign
I was holding that said invade Iraq? was anyone else holding one?

So for you to state that soldier shed their blood on our behalf is wrong,
they were sent in for the intention of finding WMD! After that the big
corporations started sucking the energy out of once a flourishing nation.

Can you answer me this, why are we paying more for oil now than before
the invasion? Because Corporations are greedy. They get paid for the weapons they make, the tanks they make, and anything for the war. Not us
as individuals!
So do not point your finger at me and call me a murderer! It is the person
your nation funds through businesses.

Originally posted by Equinox99
It is the person your nation funds through businesses.

Hey, tell you what, bud. Seeing as I let you know (in my mini-profile) that I am from the US, and you used that info to point fingers at my nation, how about letting me know where you are from?

How rude can you be?

Don’t make fun of someone's country and hid your own.

Until I see a country in your mini-profile I don’t think it would be appropriate for me to respond further to your threads.

Originally posted by cavscout
But they did start a war to continue enjoying their current lifestyle.

Yes, they did.

And not just for their lifestyle, but yours as well.

Wrong. My lifestyle goes on no matter what they do. If they stopped selling oil, there would soon be a replacement, and my lifestyle goes on unchanged.

And they would stop if you and I would just let them. Or make them. But like I said, you keep on demanding it, one gallon at a time.

I would let them. I can't make them. I wouldn't care if the whole industry fell off the planet. Life would go on pretty much unchanged, for reasons I mentioned earlier. If they run out of oil, to bad. Go without, but starting a war over it is not an acceptable answer.

No, it would be a crock if "they" used all that oil and you none.

No, it's a crock that they won't provide options. Energy should have been diversified decades ago. I, as a consumer, can only consume what is available. As our society is an energy-driven one, of course I use energy, though much less then some. The energy providers should have had oil almost totally replaced by now, and if they go to war to correct their short-sightedness, that is not my responsibility.
If energy was derived from a non-oil-based product, that's what I'd be buying.

I carry no guilt for other people's actions.

Originally posted by subject x
Energy should have been diversified decades ago.

Right, but it wasnt beacuse you and I kept on using oil.

I, as a consumer, can only consume what is available.

Yes, but that doesn’t mean you MUST consume what is available.

I don’t consume porn. I therefore have no guilt about sponsoring it.

No supply will exist without demand.

If you didn’t want it, they wouldn’t go get it for you.

So we demand it (as in supply and demand) and they supply it.

You asked for it.

They gave it to you.

If you stop asking for it, they will stop giving it to.

Had you stopped using it once you saw what "they" were doing to get it, you would be guilt free.

But you didn’t.

I don’t know if I can put it any clearer.

I carry no guilt for other people's actions.

So someone else fills up your tank without your permission and then forces you to drive?

Didn’t think so.

Originally posted by cavscout
You asked for it.

They gave it to you.

If you stop asking for it, they will stop giving it to.

Had you stopped using it once you saw what "they" were doing to get it, you would be guilt free.

But you didn’t.

I don’t know if I can put it any clearer.

*sigh* You keep repeating this like it's some un-assailable wall of reason
Your logic, though, only works in a closed system.

You say that because I use energy, and they go to war to make more, I am responsible. That would be true if it read because I use energy, and they must go to war to make more, I am responsible. This, however, is not the case.
There are other options which they refuse to put into action. War is the last resort, not the first choice. If they had no other choice but to wage war to continue the energy supply, and I still used their product, then yes, I would be responsible. As they have many options to be exercised before turning to war, and refuse to implement them, the responsibility is not mine, as I have zero influence over what they do. Even if I lived using no oil based products, it wouldn't matter. They would still go to war. So as my actions have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they go to war, I cannot carry any responsibility or guilt for their actions.

So someone else fills up your tank without your permission and then forces you to drive?

Didn’t think so.

What tank is this of which you speak? I own zero gas powered items. No car, no SUV, no lawnmower, no weed-whacker, no model planes.

More faulty reasoning, apparently.

I get what you're saying cavscout. I'm guilty too, lol. We all support this corrupt world government/corporation soap opera, who's the enemy today BS. They're all in bed and we all give them our money while complaining about them. Oh well. Glad I don't let guilt ruin my day.

On a side note though, since we're taking over all these oil rich countries I really wish the gas prices would come down, jeez. All the blood on our hands and they can't even bring back below $2 a gallon again? Sucks.

Sorry, but you can't pull that crap on me. I don't own a car or drive/ride anywhere. I eat almost exclusively local foods, no animal products at all, and I hardly ever buy anything new. This computer I'm using was fished out of trash cans piece by piece, so i didn't demand that either. I either walk, bike, or skate everywhere i go. Sure, i do use a little bit of power to run this comp, a 40 watt bulb, an alarm clock, and a fan. Other than that i don't have TV's and appliances and all that newfangley modern whizzbang gadgetry. I've boycotted the entire corporate empire, and am careful not to make any money that could stimulate the economy. I just take as much pay as i need to buy food, even if i've earned more.

I'm also constantly minimizing. I'm also working on moving up into the hills to live primitivey, and fully abandoning all things produced by modern society. I've started constructing my hut on a ridge looking down the canyon, and have been studying many culture's primitive ways and methods All my worldly possessions can fit in a large closet with room to spare, and nothing is really of any significant value, so i'd really not be at much of a loss if i did just give away the rest of my possessions and go wander the earth.

Unfortunately i will be a bit responsible if I go commercial fishing next season in Alaska but I plan to use the proceeds to buy a few acres of pristine wilderness in a remote region with sufficient resources to sustain a small community of like minded friends who wish to hunt, gather, and subsistence farm all off the grid completely instead of being just another unit of labor to the world bank.

But, am I happy? You can bet your rectum I am. When I'm not working towards change, studying the state of the world, I'm out biking or skating. I ride street and park BMX and skateboard, and spend my free time making good use of all that unsightly concrete as i frolic and play, jumping off stairsets or wallriding something. I compete in Biketrials as well, and if things change for the better and i can travel without an excassive demand for oil, i'll ride the North America series again. That makes me pretty happy, as well as living in a small tight knit community tucked away in the mountians. A lot happier than when i was making 6 and 7 figures and living in babylon, just another battery in the matrix. Enabling whitey to genocide on brown people doesn't weigh on my mind much lately because whitey's not being empowered in the least by my lack of participation in the capitalist system. What does weigh heavy on my mind is the state of those around me who don't realize that no matter how much you chant "no blood for oil" if you don't practice what you preach, then you're wasting your breath on hypocracy. I ease my mental burden by leading by example. I often have a public audience in the parks, and i speak the gospel of change on the steps of the town center like i was Socrates with philosophies. I'm a rapper, but not one of those gold and diamond encrusted republican monkeys you see on TV yellin "shake dat ass!!!" or something equally mind numbing. I sit i the park and rap on the current state of affairs, about revolution, about change, about how after military spending we got nothing left worth defending. Every time i sit in the park and rap, i draw a crowd, some people come and spit their philosophy as well, some just come to absorb the vibe we be emitting. I take interested parties on wilderness walks and teach survival technique to like minded people who i'd entrust not to disrespect Gaia. I've got a small tight network of fellow esoteric ones who are in the know and are also tailoring their future towards the day when the oil bubble busts and it's either mad max warfare over the last pudddles of black blood, or back to the earth until the idiots are extinct and we're back to a few bands of esoterics scattered around the globe inheriting what's left of the scorched earth. If it comes down to that in my lifespan, then I'll be deep in the deepest interior of the remaining wilderness, living happily in the stone age. It's only when i see things that man has created that i'm saddened.

And for me, no, i accept no responsibility. I'm on a path called freedom seldom traveled by the masses, my back to Babylon, cause that's not where i'm headed. I'm approaching the edge of the world as the blind masses know it, standing on a precipice overlooking my destiny, the only way out is the only way i can see to truly ensure that i may live free, free of distractions of money and materials, free from being force fed the psychological virus that is sent to destroy the concept of freedom. When I saw "liberation" become occupation I stopped selling death. On a good day i'd supply 20,000 gallons of BP product to military and government clients. I quit working for the man and began the march towards freedom. As soon as I saw the kinds of atrocities i was funding, i denied resposibility for it in the form of my resignation letter.

The way I see it, once you have knowledge of how you're financially backing mass genocide, you can do one of two things, you can accept it and sell your soul to convenience, or you can deny them the funds by not producing profit for the man. If everyone who is tired of funding US state sponsored terrorism all minimized their participation in the economy to a bare minimum, things would change in a week. If everyone who is mad that their tax dollars went to salting the earth with depleted uranium all narrowed their ecomomic footprint, Dick Cheney would be be trying to hold a bake sale to buy a JDAM by now.

Originally posted by DezertSkies
The way I see it, once you have knowledge of how you're financially backing mass genocide, you can do one of two things, you can accept it and sell your soul to convenience, or you can deny them the funds by not producing profit for the man. If everyone who is tired of funding US state sponsored terrorism all minimized their participation in the economy to a bare minimum, things would change in a week.

Ok, so you get it. If you are telling the truth, you are heading down the path toward clean hands (if one thinks he can be forgiven).

But where do your bike tires come from?

And was the truck that shipped your board powered by windsail? And where did it's tires come from?

You do see where I am going, I hope.

Originally posted by 27jd
All the blood on our hands and they can't even bring back below $2 a gallon again? Sucks.

Right?

I spend over $600 a month on gas!

I think those of us who went to Iraq should get free gas for life for our troubles. That would be so wrong, on different levels, but would I turn it down? No, cant say I would, and that is the point.

Iuse Oil and im proud...

shuld you feel guilty???

i dont tthink so....

honestly.. how did we get oil before this war?

also dont we have oil in alaska?


and im sure you guys wouldnt mind maybe $6-7 a gallon if we stopped the war and just bought it from somone right???

It seems you can never please anybody... no matter what...
dont feel guilty for what the government has done.. just because you live here... there is not much you can do

Im sure they could develop alternative energies....
They could buy the oil
They could use the reserves in alaska

There are just a few simple alternatives.... but does the government EVER do anything the peacefull way?

Edit~typos

[edit on 15-8-2007 by Sad Lil Alex]

Yeah, but do you see where i'm going? During my time in society i'm reducing my footprint to an occasional set of bike tires rather than SUV tires and gas and oil, and as soon as hemp based tires hit the market i'll be sporting 'em if i'm still interfacing with society. Eventually I'll be completely independent of even that when i'm living in a hut in the wilderness, sporting a loincloth, stone axe, and atlatl on my way to "work"

Oh yeah, and I recycle tires as well as everything else. Tires are cut up and used anywhere i want to buffer from abrasion. You can also patch shoes with tires and get more mileage out of 'em. Old tubes are rubber bands and bungee cords, so they get put to use rather than in the landfill.