Why Is Jesus Real?

Originally posted by Jesus-Is-Real
Thank you all, but I'm looking for Scriptural input.

Personally, I don't even understand the where this is going. I've read books on plenty of people and I could probably make an argument that Peter Pan was real too.

There's a reason that faith is required.



Oh, The Flying Spagetti Monster is definately real though. I ate him last night with some garlic bread. He was delicious.

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
Oh, The Flying Spagetti Monster is definately real though. I ate him last night with some garlic bread. He was delicious.

I knew it!!! I knew it!!! I knew it!!!! I gotta ask though, was it tomato or meat sauce?

I'm a bit in agreement here. If you don't believe in Christ, and think He's a fictional character created in a book, how would using that book (solely) support His existence? That would be like saying, "Prove Harry Potter existed using only the Harry Potter novels." I don't believe in Harry, and I believe the novels to be fiction, so anything you told me about the novels as proof of Harry Potter would be summarily dismissed.

If, on the other hand, you were to approach the issue by using, say, archeology corroborated by scripture, thereby using a science that many accept as being legitimate to point to the historical accuracy of scripture in every testable scenario, well, you have the core of apologetics, and you have a foundation by which to grow confidence in the accuracy of scripture.

If, on the other hand, you're looking to see who Jesus Christ was, when He was, and what His role is, I would point to John 1:1-18 as my personal favorite proof of Him as the Son of God, God, uncreated, and our redeemer. John 1:5 even explains why it is that the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing:

The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it

Holy Scripture input:

1. By runetang:
John 1:15-34

2. By junglejake:
John 1:1-18
John 1:5


[edit on 8/13/2007 by Jesus-Is-Real]

That's odd...

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
Oh, The Flying Spagetti Monster is definately real though. I ate him last night with some garlic bread. He was delicious.

I dined on the FSM's evil twin the Swimming Linguine Monster... The "El Diablo" of the Pastafarian faith was delicious... As were the sausage minions that accompanied "Old Noodle."

Zedd... Your stomach will burn in the eternal sea of marinara for misspelling "spaghetti," the FSM being a harsh and unforgiving entree...

Now that I've discussed last night's dinner, I'd like to take a moment for a PSA... Threads are a fluid and evolving endeavour, and while it is important to keep things "on topic" to try and make the scope so narrow that no peripheral commentary is allowed is neither feasible, nor desired.

Some light reading:

Mod Note: Post On Topic – Please Review This Link.

Chianti Monkeys, not just for pizza anymore...

Slippery slope here if you wish to use scripture to prove who or what jesus is. You cannot simply cherry pick that which is holy eh? If the book does prove existance then how do you explain Jesus wandering off the reservation here:

Jesus advocates child abuse:

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7

Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9

Jesus advocates murder and death:

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20

Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. (The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15

The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Revelations 19:20-21

www.evilbible.com...

This kind of behavior would get Jesus a visit from CPS and the police. As a matter of fact, I am a mandated reporter of such abuse in my state. Hmmmmm how to go about reporting it.

[edit on 8/13/07 by FredT]

Back on Topic. Thank you and Good day.

[edit on 8/14/2007 by Jesus-Is-Real]

Originally posted by FredT
Slippery slope here if you wish to use scripture to prove who or what jesus is. You cannot simply cherry pick that which is holy eh?

I agree completely, though find the source and points made by the source quoted to be doing exactly that. Let's take a look at some of these times He "wanders off the reservation".

Jesus advocates child abuse:

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7

The text referred to:

For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

First, there is no commandment to kill your kids if they curse father or mother (see Exodus 20). Rather that was a state rule in the mosaic civil law that was quoted by Evil Bible and in what Christ said. Besides that, He was not saying kill the kids, but rather calling the Pharisees hypocrites, calling them out for cherry picking the laws to enforce and those which they did not want to, all to bring glory to themselves.

Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. (The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15

Again, the text in question:

He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

This is a little more convoluted, as it is the Apostle John relating a vision he had. The problem with a literal interpretation of what is written in here is that it ignores the fact that it was a vision, and that throughout scripture God typically speaks symbolically in visions. The blood referred to as having the robe dipped in is most likely the redemptive blood spilled by Jesus Christ. He was the ultimate sacrifice, and in that sacrifice was He given authority. The robe depicts royalty, so having a robe dipped in blood is showing that He is the king, He has authority, and that authority came from the blood that He spilled. The Word of God element is spoken of in John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God", so they got that part right. The sword is almost always reference to scripture. We can see this best demonstrated in Ephesians 6:17: "Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Though Christ does use it to talk about division as well (See Matthew 10:34, which I'm sure Evil Bible has taken out of context as well). As He strikes down the nations, He does so with Truth. Yes, the Bible states there is an absolute truth, unlike our culture today, and that Truth will cause an end to the nations as we know them. The armies are in pure white because the saints have been washed clean not by any action of their own, but through the sacrifice of Christ.

Revelation depicts the time when the world is redeemed completely, when God's original purpose for man is fulfilled yet again, and those who choose to fight Him to the death will do so. He wasn't lying when He said that the Father desired every one of us to come to Him, but we do not choose to do so for whatever reason.

So I agree completely with your original statement, FredT, that you cannot simply cherry pick scripture to get the full picture. There are responses for the rest of it as well, were one to put them in context. Some, like the first I talked about, are easy in that simply seeing the text shows the bias in the summary, whereas the second requires a larger knowledge of scripture as a whole to understand what is being spoken of. Christianity does not cherry pick bits and pieces of scripture to create a God of its own design, though some Christians do. God is consistent through scripture as the same, though in some cases it can appear otherwise when taken out of context. I encourage you to go through a couple of other items mentioned in that web page on your own and see if you can find explanations for them. You might be surprised to find how deep the rabbit hole goes

Let's not forget that None of the Gospels can acutally be attributed to the writers namesake that they carry. The first bing written anywhere from 50-70 years after supposed events took place. That would be like writing an acurated description of Lincoln's life and death 50 years later, would anyone question the validity of it? I won't even get into his supposed birth. Who was there writing all that stuff down to know that that Jesus was actually laid in a manger? No one ever takes credit for actually being there, seeing it or writing about it. Somehow it just got documented. I guess this is why faith was invented, although I doubt that type of historical documentation would hold any water in any of today's worst school systems.

While it's true the gospel accounts are generally understood to have been written between 30 and 50 years after (with the gospel of John actually suspected of being written about 60 years later), their authorship is generally held to be genuine in the four gospel accounts that are Canon. The only exception to that would be the Gospel of John, where the question is not did John write it, but which John wrote it, John the Apostle or John the Elder. Unfortunately I cannot corroborate that at this time, but will hopefully be able to do so tonight if I have time and remember.

The other point, though, regarding the accuracy of what was written due to the time elapsed after Christ had been here physically on Earth, I can address. I can actually do this with links to four other posts (couldn't find the other one and unfortunately I never finished writing/posting these...Though I think I have at least part 6 written somewhere...)

When The Bible Was Written – Part 1 of 6 Posts Establishing Biblical Authenticity
Literary Evidence – Part 2 of 6 Posts Establishing Biblical Authenticity

Luke the Historian – Part 3 of 7 Posts Establishing Biblical Authenticity
Geographic Evidence – Part 4 of 7 Posts Establishing Biblical Authenticity

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander

Originally posted by Jesus-Is-Real
Thank you all, but I'm looking for Scriptural input.

There's a reason that faith is required.

ZeddicusZulZorander,

Hey there,...or 'how there!'

You do make a good point about "Faith in God" being required ; Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. Mark 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague. Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Peace doesn't get entered into until Faith in God is shown. Because Jesus stands at the door as Real and Living. Until then there is confusion and strife and back-biting which stems back to the demonic not man. We don't wrestle against people, never. They were created to 'be loved'.

Let us not forget that 'faith' without 'works' is dead, being alone. That's why I am asking for an input of Holy Scripture, it's a good work due to 'Faith in God'.

Though these truly are the Days of Sorrow as Jesus told us about.

Just a short Message of thanks to the Site-Admin:
But thank you Zedd-- for being a decent Site-Admin. You make my new arrival here seem like I matter. Thank You for personally showing toward me that Faith in God mixed in with Love is still very much Alive around here. I can understand why you are the Site-Admin though it can't be put under a microscope to view, but the welcome you give is very much received.


If we had some more freshly grown tomatoes from our garden, I'ld mail you some right now!


Strengthening the Brethren in listing how Jesus Is Real,
Connie

[edit on 8/14/2007 by Jesus-Is-Real]

Since you made an excellent point Zedd about having 'Faith' you caused me to consider this in showing, also, Why Jesus Is Real. Faith in Jesus without His Own 'good works' is dead not to mention others Faith.

Adding to the input and the reasons behind it all:

1: Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Jesus was shown to be Real, in God's Word, when Jesus saw a realness in these peoples Faith toward God and what came out of it all was that the sick of the palsy's sins were forgiven. I'm sure this man felt as if a huge bolder was rolled from his shoulders.


2: Mark 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Jesus showned Himself Real, and the Messiah, when this lady's Faith was acknowledged by God standing right there in front of her by making her whole of her plague. Her story only builds more Faith in me about the Realness of Who Jesus Is. And He has healed me also of many things in my own life. Even Jesus' Faith, in knowing who His Was and Is and Is to Come, was working out in the good works that He did.


3. Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus and His own Faith through Prayer to His Father that worked for good for Peter shows also in 'works' that Jesus Is Real.

Here's the completed input list, so far:

1. By runetang: John 1:15-34
2. By junglejake: John 1:1-18 John 1:5
3. By Jesus-Is-Real: Mark 2:5 Mark 5:34 Luke 22:32

[edit on 8/14/2007 by Jesus-Is-Real]

Just remember that discussions are fluid. There will be many opinions and views because of the diversity of this board. A simple question can inspire thought and opinions that may not have been asked by the thread author but are still within the spirit of the thread.

Blessings friend...

Base on the Bible?? I just don't know. I think the answer is in the question. The question being What Is Real? I am not disputing anyones religion, I wouldn't do that.
I question the fact of are any of us real? Is this all a illusion. If Jesus was real, and I just happen to think he is, the bible says he is, he is and or was as real as the rest of us. If you read closely to what he says, he is telling us all of this is temporary and life is what we make of it.
There is no solid proof of Jesus's existance, but then where is Cleopatra's bones, or any other person that we have heard of down in history, let's say 500 or 5000 years ago. We can only know for sure by the evidence that is given. The evidence of Jesus is in the bible. They haven't found his body and I think it is highly unlikely they will.

Z out :bnghd:

Originally posted by Jesus-Is-Real
Just a short Message of thanks to the Site-Admin:
But thank you Zedd-- for being a decent Site-Admin.

You make my new arrival here seem like I matter. Thank You for personally showing toward me that Faith in God mixed in with Love is still very much Alive around here. I can understand why you are the Site-Admin though it can't be put under a microscope to view, but the welcome you give is very much received.

I should hope you feel like you matter, because input and perspective from ALL people matter.

I have been able to learn from people of all ages and backgrounds while being here at ATS. Just remember that anyone can contribute to a "discussion" and that sometimes pondering on such comments will usually lead to greater revelation for yourself.

I've seen you comment that certain posts are not what you want to get here, but part of being open is accepting all comments from others. The strength of your spirit should sustain, because if it doesn't...then your faith is not that strong, is it?

You also need to realize that there are people who believe, don't believe, or that believe in a different God completely. There is no way to "prove" who is correct and in fact, trying to prove who's God is right has led to conflict and war since the beginning of man.

All you have is your personal faith and other people have theirs. When one faith tries to push itself on another, then you have discort, suspect, and a break in harmony. Nobody should force their views on another. Just learn, share, and grow as a person.

Even Jesus wouldn't want people to blindly follow, right?

I'm pretty sure that Jesus would rather have us sitting around singing his praise rather than arguing about this.

There is no way to "prove" who is correct

Zedd,


Creation did - God's Word come in the flesh.
And of course there is proof, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Seen afterward by over 500 people. Most were still alive after Paul began His Ministry.

I"m asking for input to show Holy Scripture in the Bible.
Most Christian's believe (since this is a Faith....forum) that if it's in the Bible they will take it to heart as instruction.

God knows full well, that 'off topic' comments doesn't weaken my Faith nor my spirit-man. It's everywhere we go even when we turn on the T.V.

Things are only getting way off topic here when no one is addressing the OP. It only seems like it's accepted to come against others. Is it? What about the 'friendly' policy I read in the Mod's Warnings. Where is that being upheld here? I see this same happenings in other forums, I was hoping this would be different. I was mistaken.

Is "off topic" permissible in this forum - continually off topic comments?
Because I'm open if it is.

Is "bashing" allowed here, because if it is, I'm closing down my account because a servant of the Lord must not srive. And I won't. Which is a way to Praising Jesus in walking away from what does not profit the Body of Christ nor anyone else for that matter. Above poster is correct.

Aquainted with grief,
Connie


[edit on 8/14/2007 by Jesus-Is-Real]

[edit on 8/14/2007 by Jesus-Is-Real]

Originally posted by Jesus-Is-Real
Sure there is proof, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Seen afterward by over 500 people. Most were still alive after Paul began His Ministry.

I understand what you're saying, but more then that number have seen bigfoot, alien spacecraft, or even leprechauns. If you are taking witness testamony as "proof" then you must believe in all of those things I just mentioned. If you're not, then your acceptance of what is and isn't 'proof" makes you biased.

I think you're confusing faith and proof in this case.

I"m asking for input to show Holy Scripture in the Bible.
Most Christian's believe (since this is a Faith....forum) that if it's in the Bible they will take it to heart as instruction.

It's a forum to discuss faith, yes. What you are doing however is asking for quotes of scripture with no thought or interpretation behind them. You have been deciding what is allow in this thread and what isn't. People interpret things diferently and only by discussing those thoughts can they come to an understanding of the meaning of those words.

After all, the Bible of 400 CE and the Bible today differ by dozens of chapters and thousands of sections. If Bible is the word of God and why does man edit it?

It only seems like it's accepted to come against others. Is it? What about the 'friendly' policy I read in the Mod's Warnings. Where is that being upheld here? I see this same happenings in other forums, I was hoping this would be different. I was mistaken.

Coming against others as in having a discussion or a disagreement? Certainly that's allowed, right? I don't understand why someone can't discuss alternate views without it constantly being referred to as off topic or unfriendly. After all, look at this great discussion we're having.

Even if you had to deal with some unfriendly people in order to save one soul and bring them to the light of Jesus, wouldn't thqat be worth it?

Is "bashing" allowed here, because if it is, I'm closing down my account because a servant of the Lord must not srive. And I won't. Which is a way to Praising Jesus in walking away from what does not profit the Body of Christ nor anyone else for that matter.

It seems you're not following Matthew 5:44, which says "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," and so on. I have no problem with those that throw stones for like others, they know not what they do.

I am not being persecuted here as I see it. I have been persecuted for Righteousness Sake (Jesus) and this is not it.

I have prayed for this forum so since you don't know please don't presume upon me. I love you all here, being in flesh and blood myself, I just wanted a sure footing of what is expected over here. Whether 'off topic' is permitted or not. Appearantely it is. At least in this thread. Is the Topic that threatening to you Zebb?

So be it.

But you know,.....your right,.....others don't know what they are doing and we must forgive and I do. But I wanted to clearly know what this forum knew and wanted to remain: like "off topic" posts or no. Thank you for answering this for me.

So,.....just so you know quit clearly,.....I'm not trying to 'soul win' but to Edify the Body of Christ by asking for Scriptural input. I know the jest of this crowd, they are like the other internet forums (full strife and confusion) so there is no use in trying to 'soul win' when this is going on. But I was hoping that in this 'Faith,.....forum" that others who are Christian's might give Scriptural Input in what God has taught them that the Body of Believers in Christ might be edified together as One. It's a very simple vision, but you seem to think I'm confused in opening this thread. Sir, because Christ lives I am not confused for it's of the demonic.

by Zedd:
I understand what you're saying, but more then that number have seen bigfoot, alien spacecraft, or even leprechauns. If you are taking witness testamony as "proof" then you must believe in all of those things I just mentioned.

No I don't have to believe your conclusions. Please, stop presuming upon me, it's not a love to me but an afront. Chuckle if you wish or keep that straight face it makes no difference to me. But please, in love, keep it to yourself.

I thanked you for your kindness to me, please call upon that again.

And still,.....what a muck of a thread this has become, I have never seen such a mess. And it's now caused me to mess into it as well. For that forgive me. I will walk away now and you can go on doing what ever you believe you are doing. And will also with repentance that much more upon my being, without regret. But just not around here. I do thank all of you you for not hiding under a bush, but you hide nothing so that decisions could be made in a short time.

In all sincerely, I do thank you all for that.

I will keep working out Matt, as I had before you quoted it and I trust you will as well for the next person who seems to feel worthy to enter in. I will also pray for them inadvanced that they will just 'walk on by' as the greatest Love they could ever show.

The threads, no matter who brings it to bear, is still of the owner and the Mod's who run it. You have taught me this very Spiritual matter, thank you. I was hoping for this tread to be a friendly experience, I was wrong. Please forgive me for presumming upon this forum.

God bless you real good for He Is Good (Gen. 1:1 - Revelation 22:21)
Connie

[edit on 8/14/2007 by Jesus-Is-Real]

Well, thanks for the feedback.

It's a shame you couldn't educate others during your travels, but I understand. Keep in mind that many people are not as advanced as you. Just know that by asking for such specific feedback and rebuking others...you'll probably not get very much interaction.


I think there is something you should be made aware of about your postings (since you think I presume). You believe there is an unspoken agreement between you as writer and the reader in which you assume everyone understands each other. This is not true.

I also believe in good in people over bad and I believe that eveyone has something to contribute. It seems that you're dismissing me too so I will remove myself from participating and leave you with this:

"If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:31-32).

"He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him" (John 14:21).