I have a question for you christians

Originally posted by janasstar
I just came across some stunning revelation knowledge. I posted it on another forum, but felt it needed repeating. Many Christians have asked, "Why do the atheists persecute the Christians and not the other religions?" I figured it out! It's because we have the "turn the other cheek" teaching. So, people feel relatively safe.
One thing that should be kept in mind; a person only has two cheeks, after that, it's every man for himself. :-))

Why are you crossposting so much? Typically if you have a post that fits in multiple threads, then it has a better fitting as the beginning of a new thread.

Originally posted by plagueThe end result is not the same. not even close... my dads side of the family are mainly farmers and Ive helped out quite abit over the years on there farms and I can honestly say that your over exagerating about the amount of accidental deaths that happen. But what about the slaughterhouse thats built for the soul porpuse to kill and package animals for food. Even if you think im wrong about meat=murder or god forbidding it you have to see that there is a big difference and as I said before you my freind are just grapsing.

You still can't accept that your vegetables are stained with blood can you? You are right about my exaggerating though, I stated that thousand of animals die in harvest but yearly it's more like millions. The below link shows at least one scientist questioning the morality of someone who says it's okay to kill mice/snakes/rabbits yet says ''hell no'' to chickens and cows being killed. I don't see a difference between a cow being killed in a factory and a mouse being killed in a field, sometimes the field animals take hours to die bleeding to death, surely they suffer as much as the cows? Why do you discriminate? Meat is murder AND veg is murder too.

web.archive.org...://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html


(tried to fix this link a few times hence the number of edits on this post---copy the second http part then click on the hyperlink, then paste the second part onto the end of the web addy, it'll work)

[edit on 12-8-2007 by Corum]

[edit on 12-8-2007 by Corum]

[edit on 12-8-2007 by Corum]

[edit on 12-8-2007 by Corum]

I don't comment often, but this thread made me smile.

Trying to decide whether or not we should eat animals (or plants) based on an interpretable (thus arguable) dogma, rather than a true sense of spirituality, seems itself morally debased. An appreciation of the value of life would tell us that indiscriminately extinguishing life of any kind should be avoided. We don't need the Bible, Torrah, Koran or any other book to tell us that.

However, we live inside a materialistic system that makes it only too easy to abuse and devalue life, whether we buy a pound of meat at the corner store or send our children off to be killed in war. The problem is systemic and would require a societal reboot to change. Our government officials do not place importance on anything spiritual, so the question of killing living things are down the list of importance - far behind the economy and political power.

As long as there's an easy button, we'll continue to push it. And no, I'm not a vegetarian and neither were any of my ancestors that I am aware of.

Originally posted by Corum

Originally posted by plagueThe end result is not the same. not even close... my dads side of the family are mainly farmers and Ive helped out quite abit over the years on there farms and I can honestly say that your over exagerating about the amount of accidental deaths that happen. But what about the slaughterhouse thats built for the soul porpuse to kill and package animals for food. Even if you think im wrong about meat=murder or god forbidding it you have to see that there is a big difference and as I said before you my freind are just grapsing.

You still can't accept that your vegetables are stained with blood can you? You are right about my exaggerating though, I stated that thousand of animals die in harvest but yearly it's more like millions. The below link shows at least one scientist questioning the morality of someone who says it's okay to kill mice/snakes/rabbits yet says ''hell no'' to chickens and cows being killed. I don't see a difference between a cow being killed in a factory and a mouse being killed in a field, sometimes the field animals take hours to die bleeding to death, surely they suffer as much as the cows? Why do you discriminate? Meat is murder AND veg is murder too.

web.archive.org...://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html


(tried to fix this link a few times hence the number of edits on this post---copy the second http part then click on the hyperlink, then paste the second part onto the end of the web addy, it'll work)

[edit on 12-8-2007 by Corum]

[edit on 12-8-2007 by Corum]

[edit on 12-8-2007 by Corum]

[edit on 12-8-2007 by Corum]

Well Corum since you are all wise ...tell me what am I too do? I mean most of my vegetables come from a market whos owned by an organic farmer who doesnt have all the huge machines that the non organic farms do. I mean I dont shop at or support big non organic chain food stores.
Yes Ill agree that some animals give there life from time to time (not as many as you claim.... maybe on big money profit farms but not the local farms here) so that I may eat a Murder free diet. BUT IM STILL NOT MURDERING THE ANIMALS FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF EATING THEM.
Again I ask what to do?

Originally posted by Maxpageant
I don't comment often, but this thread made me smile.

Trying to decide whether or not we should eat animals (or plants) based on an interpretable (thus arguable) dogma, rather than a true sense of spirituality, seems itself morally debased. An appreciation of the value of life would tell us that indiscriminately extinguishing life of any kind should be avoided. We don't need the Bible, Torrah, Koran or any other book to tell us that.

However, we live inside a materialistic system that makes it only too easy to abuse and devalue life, whether we buy a pound of meat at the corner store or send our children off to be killed in war. The problem is systemic and would require a societal reboot to change. Our government officials do not place importance on anything spiritual, so the question of killing living things are down the list of importance - far behind the economy and political power.

As long as there's an easy button, we'll continue to push it. And no, I'm not a vegetarian and neither were any of my ancestors that I am aware of.

Thank you this is an awsome post. My descision to become a vegetarian was not because of religion but my religious beliefs have helped me to maintain.

Originally posted by Maxpageant
I don't comment often, but this thread made me smile.

Trying to decide whether or not we should eat animals (or plants) based on an interpretable (thus arguable) dogma, rather than a true sense of spirituality, seems itself morally debased.

To be honest, although I have posted from both directions on this thread, I think you have captured a huge piece of the ministry of Jesus right there. I'm not trying to advocate Christianity by any means, but when I look at the stories of Jesus, I see someone saying...

"Wake up folks! How can we really use a systematic plan to determine whats right and wrong about a situation... Let the books say what they say, but above all else Look in your hearts!"


Thanks for an awesome post.



[edit on 12-8-2007 by Quazga]

Originally posted by Quazga

Originally posted by janasstar
I just came across some stunning revelation knowledge. I posted it on another forum, but felt it needed repeating. Many Christians have asked, "Why do the atheists persecute the Christians and not the other religions?" I figured it out! It's because we have the "turn the other cheek" teaching. So, people feel relatively safe.
One thing that should be kept in mind; a person only has two cheeks, after that, it's every man for himself. :-))

Why are you crossposting so much? Typically if you have a post that fits in multiple threads, then it has a better fitting as the beginning of a new thread.

It's a joke!!!! SMILE!!!

Originally posted by plagueWell Corum since you are all wise ...tell me what am I too do? I mean most of my vegetables come from a market whos owned by an organic farmer who doesnt have all the huge machines that the non organic farms do. I mean I dont shop at or support big non organic chain food stores.
Yes Ill agree that some animals give there life from time to time (not as many as you claim.... maybe on big money profit farms but not the local farms here) so that I may eat a Murder free diet. BUT IM STILL NOT MURDERING THE ANIMALS FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF EATING THEM.
Again I ask what to do?

All wise am I? Your sarcasm is duly noted.

Anyways, you buy from organic farmers who don't use blades to cut the ground up? if that's so then you do all you can do, although you do say ''most'' as in ''not all'' of your vegetables I see. I presume you don't wear leather and use only organic glue e.c.t? My hypocricy post was intended towards only the vegetarians who get on their high horses about us meat eaters, as stated in the post itself. I love meat but I make sure I buy only from places that I know have a good record for treating the animals humanely. I have no qualms with an animal dying for my meat but I insist that the animal suffers as little as is possible for it.

CORUM

All wise am I? Your sarcasm is duly noted.

Anyways, you buy from organic farmers who don't use blades to cut the ground up? if that's so then you do all you can do, although you do say ''most'' as in ''not all'' of your vegetables I see. I presume you don't wear leather and use only organic glue e.c.t? My hypocricy post was intended towards only the vegetarians who get on their high horses about us meat eaters, as stated in the post itself. I love meat but I make sure I buy only from places that I know have a good record for treating the animals humanely. I have no qualms with an animal dying for my meat but I insist that the animal suffers as little as is possible for it.

Im sorry about the sarcasm... could not help.
well I guess we kinda see some what from the same horizon. Im not downing people for eating meat. Yes I think its wrong but I usually keep that to myself.
But Im tired of seeing "Christians" bashing athiest and non Christians on this site when most dont understand or follow there choosen scriptures or understand there own saviour. So I though id point out there obvious flaw
not to be a jerk but to make them think. Ill be happy if 1 out 20 people who read this thread actually decide to think about there choosen religion and saviour and what he truly meant and taught and realise they might not get it. I mean no disrespect im just trying to help on all fronts.

as far as the organic farmers.. They obviouslly have to use rotortillers to till the land but when it comes to harvest they are out there with machetes and other hand tools. As and we try to by vegetables that have been grown on eco villages if we cant get it from the local farmer. my son and his mother are both vegetarians and we try to buy everything eco friendly and stuff like that. Hell no we dont wear leather or suede.

[edit on 13-8-2007 by plague]

Originally posted by plague
CORUM

All wise am I? Your sarcasm is duly noted.

Anyways, you buy from organic farmers who don't use blades to cut the ground up? if that's so then you do all you can do, although you do say ''most'' as in ''not all'' of your vegetables I see. I presume you don't wear leather and use only organic glue e.c.t? My hypocricy post was intended towards only the vegetarians who get on their high horses about us meat eaters, as stated in the post itself. I love meat but I make sure I buy only from places that I know have a good record for treating the animals humanely. I have no qualms with an animal dying for my meat but I insist that the animal suffers as little as is possible for it.

Im sorry about the sarcasm... could not help.
well I guess we kinda see some what from the same horizon. Im not downing people for eating meat. Yes I think its wrong but I usually keep that to myself.
But Im tired of seeing "Christians" bashing athiest and non Christians on this site when most dont understand or follow there choosen scriptures or understand there own saviour. So I though id point out there obvious flaw
not to be a jerk but to make them think. Ill be happy if 1 out 20 people who read this thread actually decide to think about there choosen religion and saviour and what he truly meant and taught and realise they might not get it. I mean no disrespect im just trying to help on all fronts.

as far as the organic farmers.. They obviouslly have to use rotortillers to till the land but when it comes to harvest they are out there with machetes and other hand tools. As and we try to by vegetables that have been grown on eco villages if we cant get it from the local farmer. my son and his mother are both vegetarians and we try to buy everything eco friendly and stuff like that. Hell no we dont wear leather or suede.

[edit on 13-8-2007 by plague]

Again I say, "Is anyone aware that God slew the first animal, to make clothes for Adam and Eve, when He saw that they were wearing fig leaves to hide their nakedness?"

It is interesting to note that the Bible also says Cain slew Abel in envy over the acceptability of their relative sacrifices to God, Abel's "firstlings of his flock" preferred to Cain's "fruit of the ground."

Genesis 4

1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?

What are we supposed to make of that?



[edit on 14-8-2007 by Icarus Rising]

Originally posted by plague
... But Im tired of seeing "Christians" bashing athiest and non Christians on this site when most dont understand or follow there choosen scriptures or understand there own saviour.

Jesus was a vegetarian? I highly, highly doubt that. You assume that Jesus Christ did not eat meat because it never directly refers to him consuming meat, but that's an Argument From Silence. It holds no weight and non-evidence does not count as evidence.

If Jesus Christ really did condemn the consumption of meat and murder of animals, why didn't he just come out and say it? Surely its a big enough problem for him to have at least address it, almost every person on Earth eats meat. And yet, we see Jesus producing fish and bread to feed thousands, fill fishermen's nets with hundreds of pounds of fish, and ride a donkey through Jerusalem. Okay, so the donkey thing doesn't count as meat-consumption but its still demeaning to animals right?

Jesus wasn't a vegetarian, dude. But nice thread anyways.

I hear that steak calling my name late at night, yes, it calls for me from the grill on my porch..Ha!!


I believe the question was directed at us Christians... so without futher beating around the bush concerning whether meat is off limits, the position that we Christians are not bound by the old testament has already been submitted, and it's true we are not, BUT WHY?? you ask, Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death through his shed blood, the lamb that was slain is now the lion who reins.

True that he said that not one jot or tittle would pass away from the law untill all was fullfilled, because the law points the way to Jesus, he is our sacraficial lamb, the law of the spirit of life in christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death, with that I point you to the scripture of Acts 10:10 He became hungry and desired to eat, but while they were preparing, he fell into a trance.

He saw heaven opened and a certain container descending to him, like a great sheet let down by four corners on the earth, in which were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild animals, reptiles, and birds of the sky.


A voice came to him, "Rise, Peter, kill and eat!" But Peter said, "Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean." A voice came to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed, you must not call unclean."


This was done three times, and immediately the vessel was received up into heaven.


Now this was done by the lord himself, would the lord tempt peter with something that would damn him??? I think not.

This was done so that peter would know that salvation through Jesus was also meant for the gentiles, the scripture is clear concerning this issue, for in another scripture jesus himself serves the meat, remember the miracle of the loaves and the fishes, fish is meat, is it not???

There are other scriptures I could bring up, but I'm not going to do all of your Bible study for you, get in there and read it for yourself.

Originally posted by janasstar

Originally posted by plague
CORUM

All wise am I? Your sarcasm is duly noted.

Anyways, you buy from organic farmers who don't use blades to cut the ground up? if that's so then you do all you can do, although you do say ''most'' as in ''not all'' of your vegetables I see. I presume you don't wear leather and use only organic glue e.c.t? My hypocricy post was intended towards only the vegetarians who get on their high horses about us meat eaters, as stated in the post itself. I love meat but I make sure I buy only from places that I know have a good record for treating the animals humanely. I have no qualms with an animal dying for my meat but I insist that the animal suffers as little as is possible for it.

Im sorry about the sarcasm... could not help.
well I guess we kinda see some what from the same horizon. Im not downing people for eating meat. Yes I think its wrong but I usually keep that to myself.
But Im tired of seeing "Christians" bashing athiest and non Christians on this site when most dont understand or follow there choosen scriptures or understand there own saviour. So I though id point out there obvious flaw
not to be a jerk but to make them think. Ill be happy if 1 out 20 people who read this thread actually decide to think about there choosen religion and saviour and what he truly meant and taught and realise they might not get it. I mean no disrespect im just trying to help on all fronts.

as far as the organic farmers.. They obviouslly have to use rotortillers to till the land but when it comes to harvest they are out there with machetes and other hand tools. As and we try to by vegetables that have been grown on eco villages if we cant get it from the local farmer. my son and his mother are both vegetarians and we try to buy everything eco friendly and stuff like that. Hell no we dont wear leather or suede.

[edit on 13-8-2007 by plague]

Again I say, "Is anyone aware that God slew the first animal, to make clothes for Adam and Eve, when He saw that they were wearing fig leaves to hide their nakedness?"

I hate to point this out, but im not god your not god and everyone else here there not god. look around you everything you see god owns it. so if god wants to slaughter all the freakin animals in the world then who are we to say different but since there not our property then we need to keep off. wow this is what happens when the inmates run the asylum. god gives you dominion over HIS LAND and you crap all over it. taking what you want and not giving back ia damb thin in exchange.

Originally posted by the_sentinal
I hear that steak calling my name late at night, yes, it calls for me from the grill on my porch..Ha!!


I believe the question was directed at us Christians... so without futher beating around the bush concerning whether meat is off limits, the position that we Christians are not bound by the old testament has already been submitted, and it's true we are not, BUT WHY?? you ask, Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death through his shed blood, the lamb that was slain is now the lion who reins.

True that he said that not one jot or tittle would pass away from the law untill all was fullfilled, because the law points the way to Jesus, he is our sacraficial lamb, the law of the spirit of life in christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death, with that I point you to the scripture of Acts 10:10 He became hungry and desired to eat, but while they were preparing, he fell into a trance.

He saw heaven opened and a certain container descending to him, like a great sheet let down by four corners on the earth, in which were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild animals, reptiles, and birds of the sky.


A voice came to him, "Rise, Peter, kill and eat!" But Peter said, "Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean." A voice came to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed, you must not call unclean."


This was done three times, and immediately the vessel was received up into heaven.


Now this was done by the lord himself, would the lord tempt peter with something that would damn him??? I think not.

This was done so that peter would know that salvation through Jesus was also meant for the gentiles, the scripture is clear concerning this issue, for in another scripture jesus himself serves the meat, remember the miracle of the loaves and the fishes, fish is meat, is it not???

There are other scriptures I could bring up, but I'm not going to do all of your Bible study for you, get in there and read it for yourself.

First off if you think that you are not bound by the OT Law then you are not christian, you my friend are practicing pualianity and that is a fact. Paul was not a disciple of Jesus never met him and argued with the other 12 apostles about what Jesus taught. Jesus stated many time that you must keep his comandments and his fathers. Why would god not tempt peter or anyone. remember he told abraham to kill his son just to test his faith. As far as the loaves of pfhish Jesus served Ive already touched on it.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
It is interesting to note that the Bible also says Cain slew Abel in envy over the acceptability of their relative sacrifices to God, Abel's "firstlings of his flock" preferred to Cain's "fruit of the ground."

Genesis 4

1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?

What are we supposed to make of that?



[edit on 14-8-2007 by Icarus Rising]

Ok explain how it makes it ok to eat meat? did they eat the meat?

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier

Originally posted by plague
... But Im tired of seeing "Christians" bashing athiest and non Christians on this site when most dont understand or follow there choosen scriptures or understand there own saviour.

Jesus was a vegetarian? I highly, highly doubt that. You assume that Jesus Christ did not eat meat because it never directly refers to him consuming meat, but that's an Argument From Silence. It holds no weight and non-evidence does not count as evidence.

If Jesus Christ really did condemn the consumption of meat and murder of animals, why didn't he just come out and say it? Surely its a big enough problem for him to have at least address it, almost every person on Earth eats meat. And yet, we see Jesus producing fish and bread to feed thousands, fill fishermen's nets with hundreds of pounds of fish, and ride a donkey through Jerusalem. Okay, so the donkey thing doesn't count as meat-consumption but its still demeaning to animals right?

Jesus wasn't a vegetarian, dude. But nice thread anyways.

I do not assume ...if you look at my earlier post you would see numerous references to Jesus being a vegetarian.

Ok explain how it makes it ok to eat meat? did they eat the meat?

Well, if God prefers meat to veggies, and we are made in His image, and called to emulate Him through His Son, then it follows directly that I should prefer meat to veggies, too. Doesn't it? I'm sure you can't fault the logical progression of my thought process, though you may claim a faulty basis.

I actually don't prefer meat to veggies, I like a balanced diet. I don't eat too much fruit, though. I do start to yearn for a good juicy steak if I haven't had one in a while, and I enjoy seafood, poultry, and "the other white meat" as well. I love animals because they taste so good.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising

Ok explain how it makes it ok to eat meat? did they eat the meat?

Well, if God prefers meat to veggies, and we are made in His image, and called to emulate Him through His Son, then it follows directly that I should prefer meat to veggies, too. Doesn't it? I'm sure you can't fault the logical progression of my thought process, though you may claim a faulty basis.

I have to say your logic makes sense, but what if it wasnt the offering itself but they way it was offered or maybe being god he new what was in Cains heart to begin with and thats why he rejected the offering.


I actually don't prefer meat to veggies, I like a balanced diet. I don't eat too much fruit, though. I do start to yearn for a good juicy steak if I haven't had one in a while, and I enjoy seafood, poultry, and "the other white meat" as well. I love animals because they taste so good.


You had my full attention until that last line.....

You know I'm just playing around a little bit. So that one fell flat. I agree there is a little wiggle room on the focus of God's acceptance, be it the offer or the offerer, due to verse 7.

The other aspect of the Cain/Abel conflict I find intriguing is the animosity of the veggie offerer toward the meat offerer. Is there a common theme here? Do meat eaters need to watch their backs around vegans? What gives?