Malaysian minister defends caning of prisoners as gruesome video appears on internet

Originally posted by Kacen
Actually to be honest somehow I find it hard to see which is worse 12 years of your life just gone or the caning...

Mmm...I think in the long term the 12 years would be worse.

they never serve 12 years
most are let out ealier should have said up to 12-life

most criminals are let out when they have done a fraction of their time.

by following suit these people and others would think twice about commiting such act

In Australia as it appears to be in most western systems the time - doesn't match up with the crime. Non-violent crimes appear to be given a disproportioned sentence in comparison to say murder or rape.

The death sentence isn’t a deterrent; there are still far too many people on death row. To be locked into endless rounds of appeals which were pointed out earlier sometimes go on for 20-years are just horrendous. The trauma on the individual, their families and the family of the victim must be unbearable at times. As stated previously I do not support capital punishment but corporal punishment if managed correctly might be a better alternative. I certainly wouldn’t relish being beaten with a cane.

I say bring caning to america. But that's just me talking I guess.

We def. need a more "deterrant" justice system in this country with all the repeat offenders and all.

It's pretty hard to commit a crime when your ass in a bloody mess. Not to mention that pain coming back to you everytime you decide to break the law again.

Jasn

Ok. So for those people who say bring back the cane... How about this:

Why was it taken away inthe first place?

Why was the cane stopped being used? 'm sure it was abused by people.

How about this situation: Your child arrives home from school, he's got welts all down his back from receiving the cane...

Or about this: Some guy is givnig shiotre to your child, and he responds with a fist and it becomes a fist fight. He's angry, the other kids angry, theres a pole lying on the ground. In anger the pole gets picked up and smashed against the other kids head, knocks him out, there's lots of bleeding. He dies or is severely wounded. Your child gets done for serious asault or manslaughter. Goes to court. Guilty. They've introduced the cane as a punishment. 50 strokes. (would he even be alive after that?). During this caining process they break ribs, it punctures his lungs, they take him to hospital... he dies. Or perhaps a blood clot forms and works its way up to his brain or heart and he dies.. Now there's good logic...


THINK POEPLE THINK!!!!

There's a reason it was stopped. Its inhumane. It's cruel. It's sadistic. It i am sure has caused death before.

But hey, In your world, an eye for an eye, Cast the first stone.

All i am sure of is that if anyone gave me a caining for any reason, i'd remember who done it. I'd remember their face. I'd find out who it was. Everything in my power to find out who it was. They either A. Wouldn't be alive a week later or B. Would be seriously damaged lying in hospital. Violence begets violence.

Originally posted by DaRAGE
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How about this situation: Your child arrives home from school, he's got welts all down his back from receiving the cane...

This is different from a public caning for committing a crime. When I was a kid, teachers were allowed to use straps and rules on the bottoms of kids. Guess what, you didn't have all the social ills in schools you have now. I have 4 grown kids with my youngest a senior in high school. There is a tremendous difference, for the worse IMHO, from my days in schools and todays kids. Your kid comes home will welts from school, he/she wasn't a good student and deserved the punishment. Then it's your job to give the kid some more welts for causing problems in school, not to hug the kid and contact a lawyer for a lawsuit. The child will learn proper behavior at school from this.

Or about this: Some guy is givnig shiotre to your child, and he responds with a fist and it becomes a fist fight. He's angry, the other kids angry, theres a pole lying on the ground. In anger the pole gets picked up and smashed against the other kids head, knocks him out, there's lots of bleeding. He dies or is severely wounded. Your child gets done for serious asault or manslaughter. Goes to court. Guilty. They've introduced the cane as a punishment. 50 strokes. (would he even be alive after that?). During this caining process they break ribs, it punctures his lungs, they take him to hospital... he dies. Or perhaps a blood clot forms and works its way up to his brain or heart and he dies.. Now there's good logic...

Words have never started a fist fight, in the eyes of the law. Using fists or weapons in a fight is illegal and should have the full power of the legal system enforced. If caning is allowed for these matters, then that is the punishment. In your example, you are confused in how caning actually used. The convict is beaten on his/her buttox, not rib cage. Your probably thinking of lashes from a whip which was another popular punishment at one time.

If a serious punishment, that inflicted considerable pain, onto the convict instead of just time and 3 free meals a day, you would see a drop in the casual crime rate of petty stealing and most white collar type crime.

As the system now exists, rob a bank, get caught, get a free college degree while doing your time. What punishment is there other than some freedom of movement is restricted for a couple of years at best.

In my school you either got the cane on the hand or the slipper on the behind. Though the cane hurt instantly, your bum hurt for hours after!

I had both several times and getting that punishment never caused me to become a criminal or drugdealer.

Its also a point that when I was a kid and got into mischief and got caught by the plod, you would get a whack round the ear, then dragged to your house where your dad would thank the policeman and give you another whack round the ear.

Spare the rod and spoil the child

Originally posted by DaRAGE
How about this situation: Your child arrives home from school

He / she is off their head on dope supplied to them by a repeat offender who never appears to learn the lesson despite servicing the odd few months in jail. Worse still, answer your door to find a policeman standing there to tell you your child has been found dead in the gutter due to a drug overdose.

This has nothing to do with an eye for an eye. It is about finding a deterrent that works. If caning works then surely we have an obligation to try something different. Too many of our children die as a result of drug abuse. I have witnessed and dealth the fall out of this.

If (as the Malay's did) caning this offender makes him stop dealing then I can live with that.

does anyone have a fact file for repeat offenders in malasyia? i do think it might be substantially less per capital than western countries

I don’t get it; some fool gets caned in a country where they have broken the law and almost certainly with fore knowledge of the probable outcome if they were caught, and it is an outrage against humanity. Yet, just being an innocent citizen in a country like Iraq at the wrong point in time can KILL thousands upon thousands of people who broke no laws. Forgive me for not crying out for the victim of the nasty cane but there are far worse cases of atrocity affecting far more people for no good reason at all in far to many places. This incident just seems to pale in comparison. If one is concerned with treating people in an humane way, then I’m reasonably sure one can find bigger fish to fry in many, many other locations worldwide!

Originally posted by hinky
This is different from a public caning for committing a crime. ..

And what cases and classes of crimes would be considered reasonable? acceptable? How about the low income earner who is paying 2/3rds of his income on paying off his house, and a heap of bills have come in, and has run out of money on the day before he gets payed and cant buy any food and is starving, so he steals a packet of biscuits? Or the unemployed guy hwo has just lost his job and is in the same situation, going through tough times? Or the homeless people who live on the street andare repeat offenders coz they got no job, no money, no roof over their heads? How about the clepto people out there? How about the drug addicted? Who decides who lives and who dies? who decides who gets the cain and who doesn't?

As someone who received hits on my ass repeatedly from my father at teh age of 6 because i was reading too fast and missed a few words (and then just got nervous and kept missing words and kept getting beaten until i was so nervous i threw up), i am totally against using violence as a means to an ends (sure as hell didn't help my reading, just made me really nervous while reading), that being commiting a crime, and in my case the crime of missing a word here or there while reading at a young age. who decides who cops the punishment, that the crime is bad enough to deserve a beating? NOONE has that right. It effects you physically, and mentally. Leaves you scarred emotionally. Noone deserves that.

Originally posted by hinky
When I was a kid, teachers were allowed to use straps and rules on the bottoms of kids..

And why has it stopped? THERE WERE REASONS FOR IT STOPPING!!!

Originally posted by hinky
Words have never started a fist fight, in the eyes of the law. Using fists or weapons in a fight is illegal and should have the full power of the legal system enforced.

- Obviously you havn't seen aggresive drunks. OH so using weapons in a fight is illegal and should have the full power of the law system enfroced. But it's ok if that weapon is a cane and used by the law on people..."in the name of God". Launch the crusade...

[edit on 8-8-2007 by DaRAGE]

[edit on 8-8-2007 by DaRAGE]

My solution to the growing prison population;

Worsen the conditions on prisons and shorten the time, six months of 16h forced labor days digging and filling holes should be enough to deter most people... Worse crimes you do longer and for longer days you work, simple and effective. Oh and no TV, Radio, Books, Visitors...

DaRAGE

I sense a lot of anger in your responses and perhaps you are looking at this issue too much from a personal view not so much from a criminal view.

I do not wish to offend but what happened to you as a child isn't the same as a grown up dealing drugs.

Originally posted by DaRAGE

And what cases and classes of crimes would be considered reasonable? acceptable? How about the low income earner who is paying 2/3rds of his income on paying off his house, and a heap of bills have come in, and has run out of money on the day before he gets payed and cant buy any food and is starving, so he steals a packet of biscuits? Or the unemployed guy hwo has just lost his job and is in the same situation, going through tough times? Or the homeless people who live on the street andare repeat offenders coz they got no job, no money, no roof over their heads? How about the clepto people out there? How about the drug addicted? Who decides who lives and who dies? who decides who gets the cain and who doesn't?

Let's ask the Saudis who have a system of taking people's hands for stealing. Not much of a crime spree in stealing in that backwards society. But back to your statement, if you know the punishment, then you must be willing to accept the consequences. Jail time means nothing to every repeat offender. This is why they are repeat offenders. It's time to change the punishment so that it does mean something.

Originally posted by DaRAGE
As someone who received hits on my ass repeatedly from my father at teh age of 6 because i was reading too fast and missed a few words (and then just got nervous and kept missing words and kept getting beaten until i was so nervous i threw up), i am totally against using violence as a means to an ends (sure as hell didn't help my reading, just made me really nervous while reading), that being commiting a crime, and in my case the crime of missing a word here or there while reading at a young age. who decides who cops the punishment, that the crime is bad enough to deserve a beating? NOONE has that right. It effects you physically, and mentally. Leaves you scarred emotionally. Noone deserves that.

The fact your father was an idiot is clouding your view on this subject and you are letting your emotions get involved. Your beatings had nothing to do with a criminal act except on your fathers part for child abuse.

Originally posted by hinky
When I was a kid, teachers were allowed to use straps and rules on the bottoms of kids..

Originally posted by DaRAGE And why has it stopped? THERE WERE REASONS FOR IT STOPPING!!!

It was stopped because groups like the ACLU got involved and the court system decided that it knew how to educate students better than school districts. 30 to 40 years after this fact has proven the court system wrong on so many different levels that it is hard to believe we still have a functioning society. It is dysfunctional in many regards, but that is for a different and long post.

Originally posted by hinky
Words have never started a fist fight, in the eyes of the law. Using fists or weapons in a fight is illegal and should have the full power of the legal system enforced.

Originally posted by DaRAGE - Obviously you havn't seen aggresive drunks. OH so using weapons in a fight is illegal and should have the full power of the law system enfroced. But it's ok if that weapon is a cane and used by the law on people..."in the name of God". Launch the crusade...

I have been in more fights than I could count while in my late teens and then twenties. Alcohol was legal at 18 when I was a kid. I can tell you for a fact that words do not start fights - in the eyes of the law. Your cane issue again is a false argument as you are comparing it to a weapon such as in Kendo stick fighting (which do hurt when you are hit with one, but it feels better to take it away from someone and beat the hell out of them with their own weapon) than "legal" punishment dictated by law.

You have some issues to work out with this issue as you are taking way to personal.

Originally posted by hinky
Let's ask the Saudis who have a system of taking people's hands for stealing. Not much of a crime spree in stealing in that backwards society. But back to your statement, if you know the punishment, then you must be willing to accept the consequences.

You say the saudi's havea backward society. Is that because they take your hand if you steal? It's not far off from the cane in my opinion. I'm sure in that society many people who were hungry homeless are missing a hand. I'm sure in your bring back the cane stance, many hungry people are going to be having very sore buttocks. Especially being repeat offenders and all.

I wasn't trying to gain sympathy for sharing my childhood experience. It was meant to show someones idea of justice wasn't entirely just. Humans are fallible creatures. People who dont deserve a caning will get caned. I find it sad to see you people support the idea of a caning. If anything is failing with the justice system, it's with the rehabilitation that they desperately need, and the obvious "not long enough time periods".

Violence isn't the correct answer.

The debate here reminds me about people in places such as New York city who have for years failed to call the police when they hear people screaming and bloody in the streets. On another score more recently people were walking over a bleeding lady, taking cell phone pictures in a store, and doing nothing to help or even call 911.

Now the failure of common decency, and people who go along with that failure and even advocate that failure is beyond the pale.

None of the people here wake up to the fact that the Malaysian government is just as involved with price supports for its drug industry as anywhere else in the New World Order. Their punishments only keep the prices of things high, while they push the same dirt for money. Afghanistan was fought to open up pipelines again, not all of them for oil alone.

This Malaysian minister has no defense period. The rest of us should wake up and become civilized human beings again, or the world is going down the tubes.

Originally posted by Lady of the Lake
I do not wish to offend but what happened to you as a child isn't the same as a grown up dealing drugs.

Yes but who's going to decide who receives the cane, for what crimes? How many canings? Why not a carving knife or pins? or a whip cat of nine tails with little barbs sticking out to rip skin...like in the time of Jesus... cut off a hand like the saudi's...

It's just sooo barbaric. Cant you see that it's barbaric?

Noone deserves to have that much power over another human. And yes i am against the death penalty too.

Originally posted by DaRAGE
Yes but who's going to decide who receives the cane, for what crimes? How many canings? Why not a carving knife or pins? or a whip cat of nine tails with little barbs sticking out to rip skin...like in the time of Jesus... cut off a hand like the saudi's...It's just sooo barbaric. Cant you see that it's barbaric?Noone deserves to have that much power over another human. And yes i am against the death penalty too.

Why does the debate always have to go beyond the topic? Who is suggesting the cat of nine tails; a craving knife or pins heaven forbid is acceptable? Don’t cloud the discussion it is about caning nothing more, nothing less.

As to the comment regarding power over people would you not concede that the drug dealer has enormous power over the junkie? But you appear to think this is OK, and that the dealer shouldn’t be punished even though they are exerting power over people who are not in a position to protect themselves. I fail to understand this logic…


[edit on 9/8/2007 by Lady of the Lake]

Originally posted by Lady of the Lake
Why does the debate always have to go beyond the topic? Who is suggesting the cat of nine tails; a craving knife or pins heaven forbid is acceptable? Don’t cloud the discussion it is about caning nothing more, nothing less.

It's just as barbaric in my eyes. Like how the egyptian teachers of old used to teach thier students. If they made a mistake they got the shiotre beat outta them. or was it they beat them before the lesson?

Originally posted by Lady of the Lake
As to the comment regarding power over people would you not concede that the drug dealer has enormous power over the junkie? But you appear to think this is OK, and that the dealer shouldn’t be punished even though they are exerting power over people who are not in a position to protect themselves. I fail to understand this logic…
[edit on 9/8/2007 by Lady of the Lake]

I do not think it's ok for a drug dealer to sell drugs nor have enourmous power over the junkie. They should be locked up, AND rehabilitated and taught that it is wrong to do so, and get them taught to not become a drug dealer, how to stay away from that avenue of life. That is what needs to happen. IF that system is not working it's becuase the rehabilitation system has failed and needs to be looked at again. They need to be made sure they are rehabilitated before being released back in to society. BEATING THEM is NOT the correct way. I'm sure it is a quick way of doing things and hoping it will work. And i'm sure it will work in some aspects and in some cases. But it's just not the "right" way of doing things. I am sure there will still be plenty of repeat offenders to. Next thing you'll step up the punishment becuase obviously beating them on the buttocks isn't working.... and is the cause of all of societies ills... Duh!

Originally posted by DaRAGE
They need to be made sure they are rehabilitated before being released back in to society. BEATING THEM is NOT the correct way. I'm sure it is a quick way of doing things and hoping it will work. And i'm sure it will work in some aspects and in some cases. But it's just not the "right" way of doing things. I am sure there will still be plenty of repeat offenders to. Next thing you'll step up the punishment becuase obviously beating them on the buttocks isn't working.... and is the cause of all of societies ills... Duh!

Sometimes people give up their rights to the being treated as you say 'the right way'. Each of us in life has a choice we can choose the right path or the wrong path. With each comes consequences some good and some bad. In essence most who chose the wrong path do so willingly so they take the risk just as this chap did in Malaysia. I have no symphathy for his plight - harsh - yes it is but there are so many innocent people in this world who are suffering through no flaut if their own that will get my support and attention. I guess DeRage you and should agree to disagree. We will never be on the same page.

Is it'inhumane'to punish violent offenders with violence?Im homeless right now and was recently jumped by a gang of 20 gang members at rush hour going thru the cities train/bus terminal.My jaw and nose was broken.I have numerous facial fractures which has paralyzed the right side of my face.Several teeth knocked out and more had to be broken by the doctors to have my jaw wired.Is someone really going to convince me that these cowardly little roaches would'nt deserve a punishment shown in this thread?LAUGHABLE!!Even if they were caught and punished thusly at least their wounds were deserved and would heal.My wounds will never heal and ive done nothing to deserve them.