How can you honestly believe in God.

The wrong questions are being asked here. In the United States roughly 85% of the population professes Christianity and only about 5 or 6% claim to be Atheists.

I don't see Christians trying to constantly force their beliefs upon Atheists, so why are Atheist almost militant about trying to force their lack of faith on those who believe. This board is absolutely full of attacks on people of faith. Even the Moderators ignore these attacks and allow them for some reason. Why is that? Why is it so important to Atheists that they engage in unending persecution of people who choose to believe? Why not just accept that we believe differently and leave it at that?

If I were to place a Religious Symbol like a Cross in my front yard, I would be immediately attacked by an Atheist demanding I take it down. As if it could somehow harm them or the simple act of viewing it could harm them. Think for a moment how ludicrous that really is! It is in fact ridiculous! Even so, it happens all the time in this country.

Is it fear that makes Atheists act this way? Is it that in the back of their minds simply viewing a symbol sets off a negative emotion that powerful? Guilt, fear, what is it exactly? Or is it even worse than that? Hate!!! The same hate that drive Bigots and Racists? Of course it is. That same mindless, senseless hatred that makes humans persecute and harass anyone who is different.

The irony in this case is that it is a tiny minority that hates a huge majority when it is usually the other way around. In fact it is so insidious that even our Government and Laws allow it to go on unchecked. Attack someone because of their Race or Ancestry and that is a hate crime. Attack someone because they are Christian and that is OK fine. The people doing it are so blinded by this hate they can't even see that it is the same thing.

What will happen next is that someone who hates Christians will attack me and blame all the worlds Ill's upon me and my kind. Why? Because they think Christians are responsible for the actions of a few monsters who held positions of power and falsely claimed to be Christians. To be Christian you have to live Christian. That means you have to treat others the way you want to be treated and set an example by not doing bad things to others. I could blame all Atheist for the horrors done on this earth by Atheist throughout history, but that would be wrong. It would make me a Bigot in fact. Those Atheist were no more representative of all Atheist than the fake Christians who committed atrocities are representative of Practicing Christians. We have only two real rules to live by; Love God and Love our Fellow Man. Too bad so many find this threatening?

No, I'm saying that there have been well documented experiments done under scientific conditions, which illustrate that thought can directly affect objects and the environment.

Like what type of experiments?

Why do you care so much that someone else believes in something that you don’t? So what if Joe believes in his religion without conviction. How is it damaging you? How is it damaging that he believes it? How are you being hurt by the fact that there is no proof for his belief but so much proof for yours? Why are you so angry that he believes this way and not yours?

Originally posted by Blaine91555
The wrong questions are being asked here. In the United States roughly 85% of the population professes Christianity and only about 5 or 6% claim to be Atheists.

I don't see Christians trying to constantly force their beliefs upon Atheists, so why are Atheist almost militant about trying to force their lack of faith on those who believe. This board is absolutely full of attacks on people of faith. Even the Moderators ignore these attacks and allow them for some reason. Why is that? Why is it so important to Atheists that they engage in unending persecution of people who choose to believe? Why not just accept that we believe differently and leave it at that?

If I were to place a Religious Symbol like a Cross in my front yard, I would be immediately attacked by an Atheist demanding I take it down. As if it could somehow harm them or the simple act of viewing it could harm them. Think for a moment how ludicrous that really is! It is in fact ridiculous! Even so, it happens all the time in this country.

Is it fear that makes Atheists act this way? Is it that in the back of their minds simply viewing a symbol sets off a negative emotion that powerful? Guilt, fear, what is it exactly? Or is it even worse than that? Hate!!! The same hate that drive Bigots and Racists? Of course it is. That same mindless, senseless hatred that makes humans persecute and harass anyone who is different.

The irony in this case is that it is a tiny minority that hates a huge majority when it is usually the other way around. In fact it is so insidious that even our Government and Laws allow it to go on unchecked. Attack someone because of their Race or Ancestry and that is a hate crime. Attack someone because they are Christian and that is OK fine. The people doing it are so blinded by this hate they can't even see that it is the same thing.

What will happen next is that someone who hates Christians will attack me and blame all the worlds Ill's upon me and my kind. Why? Because they think Christians are responsible for the actions of a few monsters who held positions of power and falsely claimed to be Christians. To be Christian you have to live Christian. That means you have to treat others the way you want to be treated and set an example by not doing bad things to others. I could blame all Atheist for the horrors done on this earth by Atheist throughout history, but that would be wrong. It would make me a Bigot in fact. Those Atheist were no more representative of all Atheist than the fake Christians who committed atrocities are representative of Practicing Christians. We have only two real rules to live by; Love God and Love our Fellow Man. Too bad so many find this threatening?

I agree with all of that, except replace christian with atheist and vice versa. Atheists are the one's being "persecuted". I'm not an atheist, myself, but I've seen far too many incidents of atheists being victimized and being treated as if they're somehow inferior for choosing science over religion.

Originally posted by ghostryder21
Why do you care so much that someone else believes in something that you don’t? So what if Joe believes in his religion without conviction. How is it damaging you? How is it damaging that he believes it? How are you being hurt by the fact that there is no proof for his belief but so much proof for yours? Why are you so angry that he believes this way and not yours?

Exactly, well said

LOOK, existence itself is a paradox. According to our knowledge, nothing should exist because WHATEVER it may be that created us, has to have a creator, and so on. Whether you believe it to be the big-bang or god, each of those must have a predecessor ACCORDING TO HUMAN UNDERSTANDING.
It's ironic that the way most atheists act towards religion is the same way a 14th century priest would act towards science. It's not the religions that are bad, it's their fake leaders. And the same goes with science. Science is a good thing, but when someone says their ideas are right and everybody else's are wrong (Richard Dawkins) and we're simply not intellectual enough if we don't believe it, something is seriously wrong. Richard Dawkins would have you think he has all of the answers based on science, but even scientists don't agree with each other all of the time. Some scientists believe that they can prove the existence of God through science.
You only become truly ignorant when you let someone else decide for you where science stops, and where it begins.

Originally posted by 11 11
I have proven that without magnetism, nothing would exist. Not even God. So God MUST be magnetism.

What have you proven exactly?

That it is your opinion that 'magnetism is god' - fine, it's your opinion.

That science has accepted that - Never heard anything about it and would like to see some concrete evidence pointing to that.

You show and link no evidence to what you are claiming and then shout 'I have proven this and that' and 'if you don't agree it is because you are ignorant'.


I know for a fact that there's a pink elephant orbiting the sun. I have proven this. If you don't agree then you don't know what you're talking about. Research, research and research.

Here you go from dictionary.com

belief:

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.


Truth:

1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9. agreement with a standard or original.
10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.


I don't think the question has merit.

You can't prove beliefs

And truth is truth

Originally posted by Hexidecimal
Why do you, those that do, believe in God?

You cannot prove he exists. I know there's going to be people that say, "Well, you can't prove he dosn't either". So? I guess then I'll worship Bigfoot, The Easter Bunny, The Loch Ness monster, or any other mythical beast. You can't prove they dont exist either. "Theres no proof it does or doesn't, so it exists." I guess Wizards, Giants, heck, even Lygars exist.

Perhap's we live in a Simulated Universe. It's highly possible. With the way technology is advancing, Perhaps the real year is the year 3000, and technology is so advanced, that we cannot tell it's virtual, and we beleive we are in the year 2007. You can't tell me I'm wrong, and I can't say im right. There's no evidence for either.

As with my discussion on Shelley yates, I'm going to state the same point. Religion Sells. Someone, perhaps not even 100's of years ago, wrote the bible. They sold it to make money, as it was a good story, and people, either intentional or not, took it as a religion. There is no proof it was written when it says it was. The Bible says it was written then, but that dosn't make it right. "Scriptures written back then say it was written then." So someone primitive wrote down some ideas, and someone later in time make a book out of them. Doesn't mean it was.

Prove to me, your god. Why do you believe.

Originally posted by keeb333
LOL, this whole discussion just highlights how ridiculous faith actually is!

You people out there who are "believers" are actually OK with this?

If you can accept the idea of god, with nothing more to offer than "I know he exists, and I don't need proof," then go ahead, live in ingorance and by all means, don't seek out any answers.

Me, I crave knowledge. Not just any knowledge, but empirically testable knowledge, with results that can be repeated by anyone who desires.

While I can respect that some people require this "faith" in order to function in their daily lives, I feel sorry for them. What is it like to live your life thinking you know something to be true, when it is obvious to anyone who cares to do a little digging that it is false?

Well Keeb when you find out how this universe got here come tell me,
please! I want to know the history behind the universe too. And don't
give me a well the big bang theory. It's just a theory, as a Christian
I don't believe the universe was actually made in 7 days.
If you take the genesis seriously, then that is your problem.
I take it as a story, and that is what it is a story. But Religious teachings
keep many people from running around and destroying themselves,
and each other.
When I was a kid I used to run around with a bad crowd, but when
the time came to do something drastic, I used to think what would
the outcome be?
I used to think about the 10 commandments more then the government
laws. Just because those lies applied after you are dead and not before.

This does not go out to all of you but to the select few who have been dragging the wrong subject on. Some of you had some very great counterpoints and a great discussion.

From everything that I have posted on this discussion everyone still goes back to the same argument of “mines better than yours”. Which is ok but I for one am now going to withdraw myself from it. If all your counter points are going to be “mines better yours suck” then I’m sorry I am not going to dispute this discussion further. I was actually hoping for a deeper debate about this. Unfortunately that did not happen. None of the points that I have stated have been addressed or rebutted or proven false. So what is your argument now?

Yes believe what you want to believe I will believe what I want to believe but unfortunately you will never know what I believe because not once have I stated or brought my own beliefs in this discussion. We have discussed it but I have never stated “this is what I believe and why” because it would have been irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Have a good night. I’m off to play some World of Warcraft.

~Ghost~

This board is absolutely full of attacks on people of faith. Even the Moderators ignore these attacks and allow them for some reason. Why is that?

We ignore attacks on ideas, religion, etc., as such debates are of course the very purpose of such boards. Now, when attacks get personal, that's different, and the T&C begins to be violated. However, we're not omniscient, so if you see such personal attacks, by all means, use the tools available, or U2U a mod.

Why is it so important to Atheists that they engage in unending persecution of people who choose to believe? Why not just accept that we believe differently and leave it at that?

I think most Atheists see it as attacking what they perceive to be "ignorance", so indeed, it infuriates them a bit. Likewise though, there are plenty of Christians who do indeed try to force Christianity upon them as well. This battle is far from one-sided....and that's in respect to ANY evangelical religion (i.e. one that seeks more and more followers through active recruitment). However, to each his own, as far as beliefs go. I've run the gambit, from being raised as a Southern Baptist, to embracing Atheism, learning about Eastern religions, and finally settling on the idea that we simply don't know jack about it all (i.e. Agnostic, hehe...)....

Your statistics are a bit off though...

Christian (of some sect or another, including Catholic) = 76.5%
Others (Jewish, Islam, Buddha, Wiccan, etc.) = 3.7%
No Religion (Agnostics, Atheists, others) = 14.1%

www.teachingaboutreligion.org...


[edit on 1-8-2007 by Gazrok]

I live in a universe, or multiverse for the more scientifically-inclined among you, which is governed by matter, energy, and information. None of it can be destroyed, yet it has been created in quantities so vast it boggles the mind.

I live in a universe governed by quarks, and atoms. Things which, if properties were only so slightly inclined, or charges barely effected, would not even form matter beyond their individual components.

The fact that everything works, and in such a complex manner that we cannot begin to conceive of it, is evidence something exists.

Or, for the more scientific among you:
Where did 'Information' come from? It is acknowledged by everyone from Hawking to a High School physics professor that it is the third part of the triangle in the matter-energy dance.
So what is information?
By definition, it dictates intelligence.

Originally posted by Equinox99
I don't believe the universe was actually made in 7 days. If you take the genesis seriously, then that is your problem. I take it as a story, and that is what it is a story. But Religious teachings keep many people from running around and destroying themselves, and each other.

I'm concerned about the people that don't think that it's just a bunch of stories or metaphors.

Even though I'm sure there's a lot of positive teachings in religion(s), there's also incredibly violent, racist, homophobic, misogynistic 'stories' in there as well.

You say religious teachings keep many people from running around and destroying each other.. well, I'm happy that it worked out nicely for you, but it's not working that great for the world in general.

How many conflicts, persecutions, wars have been done in name of (a particular) religion or (a particular) god?

Originally posted by ghostryder21
Why do you care so much that someone else believes in something that you don’t? So what if Joe believes in his religion without conviction. How is it damaging you? How is it damaging that he believes it? How are you being hurt by the fact that there is no proof for his belief but so much proof for yours? Why are you so angry that he believes this way and not yours?

I think everyone is free to believe whatever they want, but when someone's beliefs/faith/religion starts having a negative effect on my life and my world, I'm not gonna be happy about it.

And you know that religion has a lot of influence over many decisions and policies that are made in name of everyone, not only 'believers'.

'cuz of paleocontact.

Damn, that was easy.

Secondly, just because we can't understand something, it doesnt means it was created by a higher being. There are a lot of things humans dont understand, and probably never will

Now why does that not make any sense?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The fact that it is here, created by someone or something, and you/we don't understand it, makes the creation process or being a "Higher" one by default.


Your very statement opposes your OP...

Sweet

Semper

The void is no mere emptiness, but is real, free and existing. It is the source from which all things arise and return. It cannot be seen, touched or known, yet it exists and is freely used. It has no shape, size, colour or form, and yet all that we see, hear, feel and touch is "it". It is beyond intellectual knowing and cannot be grasped by the ordinary mind. When we suddenly awake to the realization that there is no barrier, and has never been seen, one realizes that one is all things, mountains, rivers, grasses, trees, sun, moon, stars, universe are all oneself. There is no longer a division or barrier between myself and others, no longer any feeling of alienation or fear. Realizing this, results in true compassion. Other people and things are not seen as apart from oneself, on the contrary, as one's own body

- Bruce Lee
www.ashidakim.com...
www.rider.edu...

I understand, however the people who made those wars happen,
or people who attack other religions they are evil.
We were put onto this Earth to have free will, and I will keep
my free will until the day I die.
Let me also tell you something bad about science, science
made guns, nuclear power and other junk we kill each other with.
So if you look at it my way, is that there is good and bad in
every matter, particle and everything out there. Positive/negative,
Good/Evil, Yin/Yang.
It's not only Religious people who cause wars, if we had no weapons,
never found oil, gold, silver, and technology, we probably would
not be killing each other as bad as we kill today.

But science is also good because they have found cures for countless of
diseases, and gave us an easier life.
So it does not matter how you see it, there will always be someone there
to see the negative to every positive.

I believe in GOD, i believe in GOD because i look around me and i see him, i my self have changed immensely through him, when one looks at creation, when one sees the beauty, when one feels the love, when one sees that things in this world are happening and are heading in a certain direction, if you take the time to see that which is clear to see.

No one is trying to take away your free will. At least I know I'm not and I don't think I said anything to the contrary. I have no problems with you believing in god or whatever you want to believe in.

I understand and agree with you Equinox99.

Of course it's not only religious people who causes war, but religion shouldn't fuel the fire and unfortunately that's what I've been seeing.

I hope you understand my point of view.

Originally posted by danx
No one is trying to take away your free will. At least I know I'm not and I don't think I said anything to the contrary. I have no problems with you believing in god or whatever you want to believe in.

I understand and agree with you Equinox99.

Of course it's not only religious people who causes war, but religion shouldn't fuel the fire and unfortunately that's what I've been seeing.

I hope you understand my point of view.

Of course I understand and I %100 agree with you about fueling the
war. That is exactly why I don't support churches now, or purchase a bible.
If I want to donate money I would donate it right to a homeless person,
or a person in need.