Who Here Will Accept A Real ID Card???

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
My country doesn't give me the rights from birth, but it doesn't interfere with them, even though it has the power to do so.

If you ok with that, thats your business, Government doesn't give me my rights, it insures them.

No, thats the dillusion people have about democracy. Even in Ancient Athens people didnt realise that the representatives ARE rulers, no matter what happens.

You have to give your government power, if it has no power, then it is useless.

No dillusion, My country isn't a Democracy, its a Republic, and my Government doesn't have power to rule is has power to protect, The Government is the people.

Thats your right as an individual, however if myself or others wish to transfer currency with something physical, then that is ours. and we should not be hindered this right as its the only system of true wealth.

True 'wealth' isnt money, but that philosophical debate isnt for here.

Look, im going to use alot of terms you arnt going to like, its inherent.

But here we go.

An entire electrified monetary system is better in EVERY way, to a physical one.

Money can be more easily controlled and monitered within the system, meaning illegal exchanges such as bribery and drug deals will be MUCH more difficult.

Money is always on the person, you never end up being somewhere with no cash on you.

there are many other reasons, but i see your 'freedom babble' has made it impossible for you to see a good idea, just because it limits some 'freedoms'

Thats your opinion.

No, your getting watched. Whos on the other side of the camera? Noone thats who.

is this your justification for such systems?

Let me explain one pet hate of mine. Your gun freedoms. They were created at a time where a gun takes about a minute to reload, was horribly innacurate and incredibly innefficient.

Now, we have guns who can put around 15-50 accurate rounds into a man within a few seconds, and then reload within 10 seconds.

so now, your right to freedom of arms should have been changed to reflect this. But, of course, it wasnt because your 'freedoms will be violated'

sorry, i dont buy it.

That may be so, but the guns back then were the guns of the military, and the guns of the military were the guns any free man could own, our founders gave us the ability to resist the government if the need arises, and that we be equipped to do so, guess what our military has changed, so our need for new types of equipment evolved, just like the times right?

But none the less, my right to bear arms doesn't concern you so I fail to see why you get worked up over something which has no effect on you what soever.

You and other non Americans seem to have the mentality, that because you guys don't or aren't allowed to have the same things we have, that we don't need them..

Sorry, that thing said by Lincoln or whoever it is means nothing. Especially since your actually giving up no real freedoms or liberties for REAL security.

Really?

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
So would they?

Think, if you want half the population watched, you will only be able to do it with the other half of the population.

Its unrealistic to believe that all people can be watched.

Criminals, though. They can be watched.

Again your justification for it being ok is simply because they cant focus on us all?
Also in this country you are legally innocent until proven guilty, until that day comes, you have all the rights insured by the constitution, including privacy.

No, im thinking. "I dont mind if someone looks in my file one day, but i know each peek at mine is 10 criminals off the streets."

If thats ok with you then thats your business, but because its ok with you, doesn't mean its ok with us.

They only invade if you have something to hide. if you have something to hide you are doing something illegal. So therefore, you should be watched.

Are you being serious?

The constitution is both.

The constitution is a piece of paper, nothing more. A list of laws which were written a long time ago.

No your simply wrong, the constitution, is not about government but about the people, The constitution, insures that no man, no government, and no majority can deprive any free man from being free.

The constitution isn't a piece of paper, its the most important insurance claim any human being has.

I don't agree with anything you've said, but i don't and have not once insulted you or your country, but, you continue to cleverly insult myself and the others responding to you as if we are stupid because we cherish freedom, and that we don't live our lives the way you think we should, or that we don't bend over for government, your opinions are your right, as are ours, show respect or get out of this thread.

and complaining about it.

Who's complaining about what, I wasn't aware wanting to be left alone and free to do that which I want so long as I'm not hurting anyone was such a bad thing, but I guess you right and we are wrong, oh superior thinking one.

wait, the roots of Democracy? Do you learn about ancient Athens?

Wait the roots of the Republic, ever read about America?

I read that at school. I liked it. But it actually got our class discussing the merits of communism if a restriction was put onto power.

This pretty much tells explains a lot

If you believe so, you have to do what you think is right.

Theres nothing to believe, its fact,

With that said, I'm done with you, I've spent lots of time debating many people on this board, some of which i strongly disagreed with, but these people showed respect towards the varying opinions and never once, degraded or put others down through snide comments or remarks because of these varying opinions, your arrogance and attitude, is unacceptable and immature for this board.


[edit on 25-8-2007 by C0le]

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Let me explain one pet hate of mine. Your gun freedoms. They were created at a time where a gun takes about a minute to reload, was horribly innacurate and incredibly innefficient.
......
so now, your right to freedom of arms should have been changed to reflect this. But, of course, it wasnt because your 'freedoms will be violated'

I'm sorry you don't buy it, however, it is obvious that you don't understand it.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Well how is it limiting your freedom? Your carrying the cards and info anyway, this way is easier. The only freedoms lost are the ones people 'think' the cards will be used for.

You were discussing credit cards. The National ID is something of a different creature. The National ID card is meant as a means to "prove" that you are in fact an American Citizen... which just so happens to be an issue that we're free from enduring. The credit cards, driver's licenses, etc, are all optional. You're not given an option with the National ID.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Ive attempted to get you to consider more viewpoints than your own.

But ive failed, it seems.

Was I that obvious?

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
A mere prison?! please. Get off your high horse. Australia has come higher and further than most countries from where it started.

oooo k

I was going with your description.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
And those who dont trust their government deserve a bad one.

Sorry, that thing said by Lincoln or whoever it is means nothing. Especially since your actually giving up no real freedoms or liberties for REAL security.

Those that don't trust their Government... when their Government has given no other reason to distrust them... keeps their Government in check.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Im sorry, but you elect rulers. Why do you think the president is the man with the most power in the world? (grrr)

Because America is the greatest Nation in the world. The President is not a dictator, ruler, supreme being, etc... he is a representative to foreign nations to his/her people.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
A drivers license is only optional if your not going to drive.

What is this furthered purpose? Where is your source?

You catch on quick.

It's furthered purpose is simply as I've already stated... having to prove that you're an American citizen... something that we're free from enduring. God Bless the USA. With the National ID, which is not optional... you lose out on all access to Federal buildings, educational grants, medicare, etc. etc. That takes away all the services guaranteed to the American populous, after each of us have paid for them with our tax money.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Westpac? there was a sodding up and my pay came through 3 days late once...apart from that ive heard no 'evil'

:shk: Research the Federal Reserve... see for yourself how they are in fact part of a larger conglomeration of banks... which just might surprise you to find out that one of them branch off to eventually form a bank that you use. The information is readily available online and I implore you to search it out.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
No, people need to realise the boundry isnt as scary as they thought.

I guess you still don't get it. There's a big difference between having a credit card and a National ID. But I can see where you wouldn't understand since you're not an American citizen having this issue thrust down your throat.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Im not saying that America isnt money hungry, but im saying that unless you remove private buisness and create government control over all products *Winks at Nowayreally* (you know what im talking about

) Your government will need more than just taxes to create profit and remain powerful and able to protect your freedoms.

I did say that America (the Federal Government, not the people) have become a money hungry institution.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
So would they?

Think, if you want half the population watched, you will only be able to do it with the other half of the population.

Its unrealistic to believe that all people can be watched.

Criminals, though. They can be watched.

Given the opportunity and the turn of a blind eye, absolutely. With the technology today, you bet everyone can be tracked, spied upon, watched, etc.... The criminals should be.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
No, im thinking. "I dont mind if someone looks in my file one day, but i know each peek at mine is 10 criminals off the streets."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you strike me as a very untrustworthy individual. The, "I'll turn in my family, friends, and neighbors if it would keep me out of trouble.", kinda of person.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
They only invade if you have something to hide. if you have something to hide you are doing something illegal. So therefore, you should be watched.

I have nothing to hide. I do not break any laws. I will not allow my right to privacy to be invaded by any dictatorial nut case.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
The constitution is both.

The constitution is a piece of paper, nothing more. A list of laws which were written a long time ago.

No, the constitution limits the Federal Government... any power not enumerated by the Constitution is left to the people. I think that kind of contradicts what you're trying to prove.

If the Constitution is but only a piece of paper (that always makes me laugh), then exactly how do you expect me to believe that any law written is anything more than just a piece of paper? I'd pay good money to see you get away with that one in a court of law here in the United States of America.




[edit on 8/25/2007 by Infoholic]

Octavious Maximus
Well...its true. But its not just that.

its the fault of the humans because they can be corrupted.

its the fault of the system because it allows corruption

Its the fault of the people because they elected a corruptible person.

There is no 1 thing wrong with America. But the whole system is wrong and needs to go

Have to re-post this again- This is the bottom line, my friend-

Hey guys, there is a point to this. We, as Americans have allowed this to happen to us, in some way shape or form we are all to blame for accepting the steps that have led us to this point.

Correct me if Im wrong, but that is the whole problem, in essence. I think its difficult for other people (aahhhem ) to understand that by being on these boards and by sharing our opinions, resources and knowledge is in some way, our part, as Americans, to starting some kind of movement towards a rejection of these principles that are being violated.

We are not 'complaining', nor are those asserting this wrong either. Again, like I said, one must come to the table with both experience and education on the matter at hand.

'Our society' has led us to the point in which our government is allowed to strip us of these freedoms; this much is correct. BUT, it is our duty to defend our beliefs and our innate self conceptions as American citizens. Bring on the debate!!! Noone can take away our perceptual belief system in the foundation and roots of our origin - noone but ourselves. OM is picking our brains, not crucifying us- Ive enjoyed reading this thread, and enjoyed the visions and ethics of all posts and postees

On the 22nd of september there shall be a worldwide demonstration against the new world order and RFID chips. The time to say no more has finally arrived. cities already taking part are leeds, amsterdam, berlin, viena, sydney, lisbon, etc...Get your groups involved, make shirts, banners, call your local media and get them to cover it, tell the world sat at home infront of their TVs what is really happening. Spread the word, get the world involved.

nope crazy isnt are govt already like big brother cameras wacthing us were ever we go id card is pointless and waste it makes me feel smaller needing a id card.

I will refuse the Real ID. And I will accept the consequences that will result. It wont be easy, I work in the Life safety industry and I must be licensed and certified by the state to work. If the state says I need this ID, I will be forced in considering changing professions.

my .02

No dillusion, My country isn't a Democracy, its a Republic, and my Government doesn't have power to rule is has power to protect, The Government is the people.

Your power doesnt have the power to rule?

Uuuuhhh...if you think this i cant even try to convince you.

Thats your opinion.

Luckily your smart enough to refute my points instead of just saying something and ignoring them.


Oh wait...you did.

is this your justification for such systems?

Why yes, it is. Researching these systems shows that we already have entirely machine operated and monitered cameras. So is it shifty if your watched by a machine who only looks for illegal activities and criminals?

of course not.

But none the less, my right to bear arms doesn't concern you so I fail to see why you get worked up over something which has no effect on you what soever.

It has a Snip global effect. Your right to bear arms means that you have to keep production of guns up high, meaning those pointless deathdealers keep on getting made when any intelligent population would have scrapped them long ago.

Well...they would if they had any honour at all.

You and other non Americans seem to have the mentality, that because you guys don't or aren't allowed to have the same things we have, that we don't need them..

No, its the other way round. That because the world doesnt have something, that Americans need to have it.

Its called arrogance, and it Snip people off.

Really?

Yes, its completly true. Deal with it.

Also in this country you are legally innocent until proven guilty, until that day comes, you have all the rights insured by the constitution, including privacy.

Thats why so many criminals and crimes go unnoticed, you need to be PROVED guilty. These cameras provide PROOF.

If thats ok with you then thats your business, but because its ok with you, doesn't mean its ok with us.

Since you prefer having criminals on the streets?

Are you being serious?

yes, thats why i posted it.

The constitution isn't a piece of paper, its the most important insurance claim any human being has.

www.voanews.com...

Looks like paper to me...

Well i live rather well without the American constitution...ive never been unjustly treated by my government.

I don't agree with anything you've said, but i don't and have not once insulted you or your country, but, you continue to cleverly insult myself and the others responding to you as if we are stupid because we cherish freedom

Well...your not accepting a good idea when it comes because it would be 'unconstitutional'. Standing up for rights against the common good. Sounds like you havnt thought the causality through.

and complaining about it.
Who's complaining about what, I wasn't aware wanting to be left alone and free to do that which I want so long as I'm not hurting anyone was such a bad thing, but I guess you right and we are wrong, oh superior thinking one.

FINALLY, someone gets the right idea

Wait the roots of the Republic, ever read about America?

The word Republic comes from the latin Re Publica, meaning 'for the people'. It was created as a name for THE ROMAN REPUBLIC.

America wasnt the first, you should know that.

This pretty much tells explains a lot

Because your American i guess you wont see the merits of communism. But if you put one brain cell to work you may realise that you can have a free communist society. The problem lies with corruption.

Theres nothing to believe, its fact,

A few hundred years ago, the fact was that the universe orbited around the world.

Woops.

Not all 'facts' are true.

I'm sorry you don't buy it, however, it is obvious that you don't understand it.

oh, very well written arguement...

where did you put it again?

You were discussing credit cards.

I was discussing all cards as a whole, please dont put words in my mouth.

National ID card is meant as a means to "prove" that you are in fact an American Citizen...

Something required since you keep letting in Illegal immigrants. They work harder for less. If they institute this perhaps there could be a law to put preference to actual American citizens?

oh well, its 'unconstitutional' so lets not talk about it and its possible merits, la la la.

Was I that obvious?

Like charcoal

I was going with your description.

No you were picking 3 words from my description.

Those that don't trust their Government... when their Government has given no other reason to distrust them... keeps their Government in check.

Yet another reason why i should be put in charge.

*ahem* Well the problem lays in a few places, just look at what Nowayreally quoted, she knows whats going on

Because America is the greatest Nation in the world.

I once came across and American who was stupid enough to say this loudly (well..normal volume for him) in an Australian bar.

That didnt end pretty.

Dont you dare say you are the greatest nation in the world. You call me arrogant? look at that bull#

The President is not a dictator, ruler, supreme being, etc... he is a representative to foreign nations to his/her people.

In an Australian newspaper yesterday it had a biiiiig image of the amount of personell is in george bushes entourage, the vehicles and all the costs.

He pays MORE than most dictators on this.

God Bless the USA

being an Atheist i just have to say, 'this is what happens when you base your country on faith in god.' its like relying on luck.

With the National ID, which is not optional... you lose out on all access to Federal buildings, educational grants, medicare, etc. etc. That takes away all the services guaranteed to the American populous, after each of us have paid for them with our tax money.

Where does it say that?

Oh, and Medicare? hehehe go watch Sicko.






[Mod Edit: Please read the T&C's 1b). Thank you - Jak]

[edit on 6/9/07 by JAK]

Research the Federal Reserve... see for yourself how they are in fact part of a larger conglomeration of banks... which just might surprise you to find out that one of them branch off to eventually form a bank that you use. The information is readily available online and I implore you to search it out.

No, i will not. I will go with the information i know. From the newspapers (which my sister is working in) and from the evidence where i go into a bank.

No evil, Westpac moved some of its telemarketing to India, thats the only thing ive seen which is nasty.

But I can see where you wouldn't understand since you're not an American citizen having this issue thrust down your throat.

Well why dont you protest instead of just posting it on the internet?

If my government did anything to upset me on the scale ive seen people upset in this thread. I would march straight to Canberra and demand to talk with someone.

Unlike my typing, my speeches are very convincing.

Given the opportunity and the turn of a blind eye, absolutely. With the technology today, you bet everyone can be tracked, spied upon, watched, etc.... The criminals should be.

Criminals are normal people who have done illegal things. To catch all criminals, you have to watch all the people. Thats a fact.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you strike me as a very untrustworthy individual. The, "I'll turn in my family, friends, and neighbors if it would keep me out of trouble.", kinda of person.

Correct you?!

if you mentioned this to my face the only thing that would prevent me from tearing out your jugular would be a nuclear weapon of some kind.

I would always, and have done so in the past, put myself in jeopardy to protect a friend, a family member, a person on the street even.

So dont you dare come here and spout that kind of [b ]snip? Alright?

Though all ive seen of you is someone who will blame anyone but himself. Go and protest if your so [snip] off. If you dont want to do anything of use, shut the hell up.

I have nothing to hide. I do not break any laws. I will not allow my right to privacy to be invaded by any dictatorial nut case.

Then you leave hundreds of criminals on the streets....go you and your stubbornness.

No, the constitution limits the Federal Government... any power not enumerated by the Constitution is left to the people. I think that kind of contradicts what you're trying to prove.

uhhh, governments are made up of people, who are protected by the same constitutional laws as you are.

Although you ignore peoples right to privacy, and innocent until proven guilty on this site every day, accusing people of being part of the NWO, or being an Alien, or anything else, with only the scraps of badly sources, badly interpreted evidence.

If the Constitution is but only a piece of paper (that always makes me laugh)

Check the image i posted, its paper

then exactly how do you expect me to believe that any law written is anything more than just a piece of paper? I'd pay good money to see you get away with that one in a court of law here in the United States of America.

Yeah, but i wouldnt trust a court of law over there anyway. The law means nothing when in a court, it seems. He with the better paid lawyer wins, you mays well choose innocent or guilty on a coin flip.

Have to re-post this again- This is the bottom line, my friend-

Thanks, darling, its always good to see my posts quoted

So i will reiterate, the problem lies with ALL. You have 2 choices, you can protest, or you can get out.

but dont try and come to any other country and push your laws and beliefs on us. Not like you did the Iraqies.

That Saddam Hussain trial was a shamble, and was arranged by Americans.

The reason why America doesnt work, is because of those laws and beliefs.

Hey guys, there is a point to this. We, as Americans have allowed this to happen to us, in some way shape or form we are all to blame for accepting the steps that have led us to this point.

I knew making you my friend was a good idea. Your intelligence grows every time i see you, it seems.

Correct me if Im wrong, but that is the whole problem, in essence. I think its difficult for other people (aahhhem ) to understand that by being on these boards and by sharing our opinions, resources and knowledge is in some way, our part, as Americans, to starting some kind of movement towards a rejection of these principles that are being violated.

Well the principles and beliefs you have had violated are drummed into you from birth. I, as an Australian, have grown up with the only belief being that any law is mutable. Anything which doesnt work is replaced, and the thing which limits the government is concience, and the word of the people.

Having a set of laws to base all of your laws around (the constitution) doesnt make sense to me, especially when the constitution laws need to be changed sometimes.

OM is picking our brains, not crucifying us- Ive enjoyed reading this thread, and enjoyed the visions and ethics of all posts and postees

Hooray

Im just trying to understand why Americans believe the constitution is immutable. In a search for a 'free' society it creates a sort of arms race.

One person gets gun, so everyone else needs to get it because of self defence AND because of your constitutional right.

etc, etc.

On the 22nd of september there shall be a worldwide demonstration against the new world order and RFID chips.

Against Chips?!

What the hell are you doing?!

If the government actually listens to you it means we will never evolve our monetary and Identification system!

grrrrr. Protesting about things you cannot understand the merits for.

Octavivs.Maximvs.Re.Pvblica








[Mod Edit: Please read the T&C's 1b). Also see General ATS discussion etiquette Thank you - Jak]

[edit on 6/9/07 by JAK]

Not accepting at all. My license should be damn good enough. Law enformance has fits when you forget yours already. Can't do much these days without a proper ID anyway, not fair to make it harder, which in turn this new card takes all of our privacy. Just as bad as a chip in the wrist? Since it has to be on us at all times?!

[edit on 26-8-2007 by dreamingawake]

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
where did you put it again?

The 2nd Amendment was to provide the people a means to defend themselves against all enemies, foreign and domestic... as was made perfectly clear in the Declaration of Independence. Here's I'll cite it for you...

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
source

In order for the people to abolish such a corrupt Government, it's obvious with a little common sense, that "weapons" would be a must. Therefore, the Framers knew in order to provide the people the ability to be the last line of defense of our rights, freedoms, and liberties... they must ensure our right to keep and bear arms.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
I was discussing all cards as a whole, please dont put words in my mouth.

Let me show you the statements you made, which brought us to the above quote...

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
So how many credit cards did thomas Jefferson own?source

Of which was made in reference to this post. As I mentioned here, a credit card and a National ID are two totally different things. Again, here, you've made the distinct correlation between the National ID and a credit card by saying...

Then why do other countries without the federal reserve have credit cards then?

.... right in the middle of "debating" the National ID and a credit card... of which I stated clearly that the two issues are completely different.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Something required since you keep letting in Illegal immigrants. They work harder for less. If they institute this perhaps there could be a law to put preference to actual American citizens?

Requiring identification of illegal immigrants into this nation is one thing. Forcing each and every free American citizen into a situation identical with Gestapo-style tactics of government already lived through by people of the old Nazi Germany. It makes sense to you that free people should give up being free in their own nation... just to prevent outsourcing of jobs? Ludicrous.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
oh well, its 'unconstitutional' so lets not talk about it and its possible merits, la la la.

We don't and won't give up our rights, freedoms, and liberties in the pursuit of security. That defeats the whole purpose. There are multitudes of ways the current Administration could ensure our borders, taking control of immigration... all the while, leaving our freedoms in tact... as is a requirement of the Federal Government.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
No you were picking 3 words from my description.

Here is what I picked from...

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
YOUR founders may be big on Freedom, Mine saw a big land full of resources and a place to keep Convicts.

Go them, i say. It makes how far we have come all the more glorious.

I still fail to see how Australia has become so glorious... by your definition.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Yet another reason why i should be put in charge.

In America, that would require a vote. And I assure you, thus far you've done nothing to warrant my vote.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
*ahem* Well the problem lays in a few places, just look at what Nowayreally quoted, she knows whats going on

I'm assuming that you're referring to this post? If so, I disagree. You've put the blame of a few hundred (and I say hundred, due to including past and present) corrupt people. Politics is a very risky game. People can be ill informed and persuaded either way with a little bit of manipulation.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
I once came across and American who was stupid enough to say this loudly (well..normal volume for him) in an Australian bar.

That didnt end pretty.

Dont you dare say you are the greatest nation in the world. You call me arrogant? look at that bull#

Bah....

I did say it, and I'll say it again. America is the Greatest Nation in the World!
I am not that "stupid" American in the bar. I am not being arrogant. I am being truthful. I completely understand that there are still "bugs in the system" that need worked out, but again, this Nation as a "principle" is by far the best in the world. If it wasn't... why do you think that there have been so many attempts to bring the US of A to it's knees? The people of this Nation do not deserve to be put on the same "hot seat" as those that have tried with their last dying breath to bring it to an end.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
In an Australian newspaper yesterday it had a biiiiig image of the amount of personell is in george bushes entourage, the vehicles and all the costs.

He pays MORE than most dictators on this.

I fail to see your point. Ahh... misuse of American's hard earned tax dollars? We are but prioritizing. There's much bigger fish to fry that to worry about a dollar bill that carries less value than the paper on which it was printed.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
being an Atheist i just have to say, 'this is what happens when you base your country on faith in god.' its like relying on luck.

I will not resort to attacking your religion, or lack thereof.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Where does it say that?

Must I do all the leg work for you?

(3) OFFICIAL PURPOSE.—The term ‘‘official purpose’’ includes
but is not limited to accessing Federal facilities, boarding federally
regulated commercial aircraft, entering nuclear power
plants, and any other purposes that the Secretary shall determine.
source - begins on the bottom of page 82

I think you're capable of researching into that further.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Oh, and Medicare? hehehe go watch Sicko.

I'm not a Michael Moore fan, sorry. Anywho... If this country would repeal the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, I am certain that our Nation's health care system could be formed to be, and would be amazingly beneficial to every U.S. citizen.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
No, i will not. I will go with the information i know. From the newspapers (which my sister is working in) and from the evidence where i go into a bank.

oooook. I can see where this is going.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
No evil, Westpac moved some of its telemarketing to India, thats the only thing ive seen which is nasty.

Dig a little bit deeper. You might be surprised as to what you find.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Well why dont you protest instead of just posting it on the internet?

Already did that, and I'll gladly do it more. I've protested, met with Congressional Representatives, sent letters to Congress, made a website, formed a petition, printed and handed out flyers, emails, online forums, etc. etc... I've done more that just sit here idly and bitch.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
If my government did anything to upset me on the scale ive seen people upset in this thread. I would march straight to Canberra and demand to talk with someone.

Unlike my typing, my speeches are very convincing.

We have done just that. However, we continue to do more and more every day. You shouldn't sit there with that smug attitude thinking no one does anything.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Criminals are normal people who have done illegal things. To catch all criminals, you have to watch all the people. Thats a fact.

That's a crock. You don't punish the entire populous for the wrongdoings of some.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Correct you?!

if you mentioned this to my face the only thing that would prevent me from tearing out your jugular would be a nuclear weapon of some kind.

I would always, and have done so in the past, put myself in jeopardy to protect a friend, a family member, a person on the street even.

So dont you dare come here and spout that kind of #? Alright?

Though all ive seen of you is someone who will blame anyone but himself. Go and protest if your so pissed off. If you dont want to do anything of use, shut the hell up.

Sorry if I don't give you the reaction you were looking for, but my skin is a bit thicker than that. You made the comment that 10 criminals would be taken off the street by the Government looking into your file... which is interpreted as "I'll rat anyone out." Again, you're very untrustworthy by that standard, and hypocritical by stating the following...

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
I would always, and have done so in the past, put myself in jeopardy to protect a friend, a family member, a person on the street even.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Then you leave hundreds of criminals on the streets....go you and your stubbornness.

How is my demanding that my rights remain un-infringed leaving criminals on the street? Isn't that what police work is for? Investigate known crimes?

Again, here in America, we are innocent until proven guilty by a fair trial.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
uhhh, governments are made up of people, who are protected by the same constitutional laws as you are.

Very true... however, the Federal Government, nor the State's Governments are entrusted to any power that makes them above the law. In order to change the rights we have, that would require a vote. I'm very skeptical that there would be a majority vote to give up any of our rights... without major civil unrest, at the least.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Although you ignore peoples right to privacy, and innocent until proven guilty on this site every day, accusing people of being part of the NWO, or being an Alien, or anything else, with only the scraps of badly sources, badly interpreted evidence.

How so? Could you site a few sources for such ridiculous claims?

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Check the image i posted, its paper.

It's documentation of the Supreme Law of Our Land. Check your facts.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Yeah, but i wouldnt trust a court of law over there anyway. The law means nothing when in a court, it seems. He with the better paid lawyer wins, you mays well choose innocent or guilty on a coin flip.

As is the same for everything you've done in this thread so far... chance by persuasion. Don't feel lucky? It's not the better paid lawyer... it's the most knowledgeable.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
.....but dont try and come to any other country and push your laws and beliefs on us.....

Or as you have through this thread?


I haven't the patience to "pick apart" the rest of your last post. Maybe I'll do that tomorrow after I get some rest, if you'd like.



Info.

[edit on 8/27/2007 by Infoholic]

In order for the people to abolish such a corrupt Government, it's obvious with a little common sense, that "weapons" would be a must.

Yes. Weapons over speech and intelligence.

Perhaps you can talk to them and defeat them with your words rather than reaching for your guns?

Let me show you the statements you made

Oh im so sorry i didnt clarify when i said credit cards i usually just meant all cards such as Eftpos cards, medicare cards, Credit cards, Student Id, Student union, etc.

Forcing each and every free American citizen into a situation identical with Gestapo-style tactics of government already lived through by people of the old Nazi Germany

yep, bring up Germany.

You know the guards had guns! That means because i can bring up some tenuous link between Nazi Germany and present day America, America must be like Nazi Germany in every way.

Sorry mate, you dont make sense.

It makes sense to you that free people should give up being free in their own nation... just to prevent outsourcing of jobs? Ludicrous.

No, they give up a certain freedom, one which is difficult to enforce (how do you know your not always being watched?) for a myriad of reasons. One of which is to prevent illegal immigration.

We don't and won't give up our rights, freedoms, and liberties in the pursuit of security.

Then why do you keep on bitching about things like terrorists? They will attack you because your the softest target, and they have been doing so.

That defeats the whole purpose.

No, it doesnt. It gives you a safe base to work from. Not an untrusting system.

I still fail to see how Australia has become so glorious... by your definition.

Then you fail to see the obvious.

In America, that would require a vote. And I assure you, thus far you've done nothing to warrant my vote.

Pfff, being Emperor doesnt mean im voted in. Anyway, i know i could leada country better than Mr shrub is now. At least i could consider my people.

People can be ill informed and persuaded either way with a little bit of manipulation.

Like you have been, with your belief that the constitution is infallible, and others.

I did say it, and I'll say it again. America is the Greatest Nation in the World!

Here is more American loving bull#.

Luckily while im here in Australia we dont need to shout out how good we are, we know that just pisses people off.

we just know that we are the lucky sunburnt country.

I am not being arrogant. I am being truthful.

Your being embarrassing.

this Nation as a "principle" is by far the best in the world

Too bad your nation doesnt actually embody your principles in ANY way.

Thats why i have so many people wanting to either leave, or change the system...because its wrong.

If it wasn't... why do you think that there have been so many attempts to bring the US of A to it's knees?

Because its so funny to see a person fall in the mud because his nose is so high in the air.

also, cause your an easier target.

The people of this Nation do not deserve to be put on the same "hot seat" as those that have tried with their last dying breath to bring it to an end.

Just a thought...why not?

Consider, a person who is a suicide bomber has to do the hardest thing in the world. He knows he is right, he knows you are wrong. He will bring you to an end, and himself with it.

In principle, it sounds inspiring, a man ready to kill himself for his beliefs.

Ahh... misuse of American's hard earned tax dollars?

No, misuse of power and wealth. Not just American.

I will not resort to attacking your religion, or lack thereof.

Awsome, ive got nothing stopping me from debating religions.

Must I do all the leg work for you?

Hope so, i love people doing things for me

wait...your saying that all these evil things will happen, but you have no source saying that other than "and any other purposes that the Secretary shall determine" ?

well...hard to argue with that logic...oh wait, no it isnt.

Innocent until proven guilty.

There is no evidence to prove this 'evil', so you must accept it on the information you know.

You cannot condemn a criminal saying "but he may do crime in the future", same way you cannot condemn this card saying "it may be used to my detriment"

I'm not a Michael Moore fan, sorry.

Typical, one of the only Americans capable of questioning the system...and everyone hates him.

Anywho... If this country would repeal the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, I am certain that our Nation's health care system could be formed to be, and would be amazingly beneficial to every U.S. citizen.

yeah, but it wont.

Health insurance companies pay the officials too much.

Even Hillary Clinton, thats unfortunate...i liked her.

Dig a little bit deeper. You might be surprised as to what you find.

The further you dig, the simpler the cogs become, until you cannot see the machine as a whole.

You shouldn't sit there with that smug attitude thinking no one does anything.

Im not smug, actually. Im watching a documentary on Pompeii, seeing a couple of my friends there in the background. Looks like they were doing some reevaluation work on the villa of the Mysteries.

That's a crock. You don't punish the entire populous for the wrongdoings of some.

Its not a punishment, its a deterrent. You are unable to see the difference.

Sorry if I don't give you the reaction you were looking for, but my skin is a bit thicker than that.

the only reaction i wanted was an apology.

Apparently you dont even respect your common man to realise you've attacked their core.

You made the comment that 10 criminals would be taken off the street by the Government looking into your file

You read wrong.

I said, for every time they peek into my file to see if i had done a wrongdoing, which i havnt, they will find the files of 10 criminals and take them off the streets.

Goddamn it!

This bloody stupid annoying piece of crap ate my post.

Alright... The gist of it was, your stubborn enough to ignore all of my ideas and all good ideas anyone puts forward.

So i will say what i like, since you will disagree without seeing merit.

actually..theres an idea.

I would like you to tell me the merits of having a population with a chip.

tell me your own personal ideas of the merit of such a plan

oh...also, im happy that Nowayreally agrees with me in at least one way

hope to see you soon, darling

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Perhaps you can talk to them and defeat them with your words rather than reaching for your guns?

You see, this is where you fail to understand. The "speech" idea is a right protected by the Constitution as well. It's actually the first means that our people can and will use. We protest peacefully, and the weapons issue is but a last resort.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Oh im so sorry i didnt clarify when i said credit cards i usually just meant all cards such as Eftpos cards, medicare cards, Credit cards, Student Id, Student union, etc.

Sooo... since you weren't able to convince me that the National ID and credit cards were one of the same, now you want to convince me that credit cards are like Student ID's and/or medicare cards? You obviously don't understand what you're trying to argue.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
You know the guards had guns! That means because i can bring up some tenuous link between Nazi Germany and present day America, America must be like Nazi Germany in every way.

I'm man enough to admit, after I said the US was the greatest Nation in the world, there are still issues within our Government that would make it resemble Nazi Germany. And this particular issue, the National ID, is a prime example. It's just un-American.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
No, they give up a certain freedom, one which is difficult to enforce (how do you know your not always being watched?) for a myriad of reasons. One of which is to prevent illegal immigration.

Because something is hard to enforce, is not a justifiable reason to have the people give up a freedom for. You don't give up liberties in order to provide for security. You might feel comfortable doing so, but I sure don't. I'm willing to fight for my freedoms.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Then why do you keep on bitching about things like terrorists? They will attack you because your the softest target, and they have been doing so.

Where was I bitching about terrorists?

Those terrorist attacks that you speak of, were carried out with either prior knowledge, or assistance of our corrupt Government... in a means to bring us to where the USA is today... with people like you determined to strip the American people of their rights.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
No, it doesnt. It gives you a safe base to work from. Not an untrusting system.

No, it doesn't. Trust is earned... not given. If this Government is going to lay out historical reasons for me not to trust them... I'm definitely not going to turn a blind eye to the Government in order for them to provide my safety. That's like giving a masked man a gun, and trusting that he won't shoot me to take my money.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Then you fail to see the obvious.

All I've seen is immature and ill informed rantings from an overzealous pompass Australian that believes he's the answer to America's ills, when that person doesn't even comprehend the root of the debate before partaking in it.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Pfff, being Emperor doesnt mean im voted in. Anyway, i know i could leada country better than Mr shrub is now. At least i could consider my people.

Good thing we don't have Emperors here in the United States. I'm sure you could, but that doesn't say much.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Like you have been, with your belief that the constitution is infallible, and others.

I never stated the Constitution was infallible. If there wasn't an Amendment process included into the Constitution, I would. There's the catch of protection, as well the flaw, in our Constitutionally provided Government. The USA is a Republic... not a Democracy, as many would contest. The problem with a Democratic Republic is that 51% of the population can vote away our rights.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Here is more American loving bull#.

On a thread that deals with America, and being an American citizen, I voiced my opinion... and that bothers you? That makes it America loving bull#?

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Your being embarrassing.

Like I stated before... I've got thicker skin than that. Personal attacks don't bother me.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Too bad your nation doesnt actually embody your principles in ANY way.

Oh, it does. I was here peaceably protesting long before you showed up and I'll be here peaceably protesting long after your gone. People leave this country for many different reasons. And of course, there are some that don't like it here. But that's why we are here today, to make change. I'm glad that you could be part of it.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
also, cause your an easier target.

Or is it because we're a better target?

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Consider, a person who is a suicide bomber has to do the hardest thing in the world. He knows he is right, he knows you are wrong. He will bring you to an end, and himself with it.

In principle, it sounds inspiring, a man ready to kill himself for his beliefs.

A principle and/or person like that has no place in our society. I'm shocked that you would even hold them on a pedestal like that.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
No, misuse of power and wealth.

Where do you think those items come from?

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Awsome, ive got nothing stopping me from debating religions.

Except the proper thread.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
well...hard to argue with that logic...oh wait, no it isnt.

Well then... I'm waiting.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
There is no evidence to prove this 'evil', so you must accept it on the information you know.

Except for history itself. You have a dog bite your hand ten times, are you going to not question it happening the eleventh time? If you do, you deserve it.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
You cannot condemn a criminal saying "but he may do crime in the future", same way you cannot condemn this card saying "it may be used to my detriment"

If that person has committed crimes repeatedly... sure you can.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Typical, one of the only Americans capable of questioning the system...and everyone hates him.

It's ok for us to have opposing views of Michael Moore, and I'm fine with that.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
yeah, but it wont.

Possible, yes. Probable, no.


(continued......)

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
The further you dig, the simpler the cogs become, until you cannot see the machine as a whole.

Exactly... examine every nut and bolt.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Im not smug, actually. Im watching a documentary on Pompeii, seeing a couple of my friends there in the background. Looks like they were doing some reevaluation work on the villa of the Mysteries.

You are avoiding what I said. You accuse me of sitting here not doing anything, and I cited many examples. How am I sitting here not doing anything to protect my liberties? How am I sitting here allowing my childrens' futures to be stripped of their own happiness?

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Its not a punishment, its a deterrent. You are unable to see the difference.

A deterrent is shown by punishing one for their wrong doings... so that the rest of the people know not to do it... Taking away everyone's rights because a few did something wrong..... absurd.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
the only reaction i wanted was an apology.

Won't happen. I wasn't in the wrong for what I said.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Apparently you dont even respect your common man to realise you've attacked their core.

I attacked your core by taking part in a discussion about an American issue, or by citing your own words? How?

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
You read wrong.

Typical.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
I said, for every time they peek into my file to see if i had done a wrongdoing, which i havnt, they will find the files of 10 criminals and take them off the streets.

So now your saying that those 10 criminal files will be held inside of your file?

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
This bloody stupid annoying piece of crap ate my post.

That's too bad. I get a kick out of what you write.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Alright... The gist of it was, your stubborn enough to ignore all of my ideas and all good ideas anyone puts forward.

Absolutely. I'm stubborn enough not to give up my rights, freedoms, and liberties... especially when someone that lives in another nations suggests it to suit their own agenda.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
I would like you to tell me the merits of having a population with a chip.

tell me your own personal ideas of the merit of such a plan.

In my honest opinion... there isn't any merit to that type of plan. Besides... this thread is about the National ID card... not getting chipped. Let's stay on topic.

*removed irrelevant part of post*

[edit on 8/27/2007 by Infoholic]

The "speech" idea is a right protected by the Constitution as well.

In Australia im not sure if we have any piece of paper saying we get free speech, but im sure we have it already.

What about the Sheik who repeatedly assailed womens position in society and that rapists were in the right because of revealing clothing?

The Australian people called for him to be deported, the government stepped in and asked him, he said no. So we left it to his superiors, who removed him of his titles.

And yet...we have no free speech.

since you weren't able to convince me that the National ID and credit cards were one of the same, now you want to convince me that credit cards are like Student ID's and/or medicare cards? You obviously don't understand what you're trying to argue.

No, i just dont type arguements well. I prefer speech.

Im saying that a card given to every legal citizen could be created which will assimilate every known card into itself.

I'm man enough to admit, after I said the US was the greatest Nation in the world, there are still issues within our Government that would make it resemble Nazi Germany

Theres the thing though, you say Nazi Germany as if EVERY aspect of it was evil. Alot of its basic ideas were sound, but it was put to bad use attacking Jews, gypsies, political prisoners, etc.

And this particular issue, the National ID, is a prime example. It's just un-American.

Its un-American because it makes sense. What is typically American is it being rejected.

Because something is hard to enforce

Total criminal protection? Try Impossible to enforce.

is not a justifiable reason to have the people give up a freedom for.

What? the freedom to lie about your identity?

The freedom to walk through a street and not be looked at (which is, of course, impossible)

You are saying the card is unconstitutional because it destroys your freedom to withhold your identity from the government.

Plain paranoia. you should stand up for who you are and Proclaim it loud, if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear.

Where was I bitching about terrorists?

When i say 'you' i usually mean Americans in general.

Those terrorist attacks that you speak of, were carried out with either prior knowledge, or assistance of our corrupt Government

yes yes, dont lose your aluminium hat.

Paranoia.

No, it doesn't. Trust is earned... not given.

to me that sounds wrong, trust is given until it is lost.

If this Government is going to lay out historical reasons for me not to trust them... I'm definitely not going to turn a blind eye to the Government in order for them to provide my safety. That's like giving a masked man a gun, and trusting that he won't shoot me to take my money.

Thats what happens when you get 'freedom'. it allows Anything to happen, including the bad.

All I've seen is immature and ill informed rantings from an overzealous pompass Australian that believes he's the answer to America's ills

Oh no, of course not.

Im the answer to the worlds ills

when that person doesn't even comprehend the root of the debate before partaking in it.

your freedom says im allowed to, no matter what i say you have to accept my viewpoint.

Good thing we don't have Emperors here in the United States. I'm sure you could, but that doesn't say much.

IMPERATOR.OCTAVIVS.MAXIMVS

aww man, that would be so cool

I never stated the Constitution was infallible.

But you protect it, anyway.

On a thread that deals with America, and being an American citizen, I voiced my opinion... and that bothers you? That makes it America loving bull#?

yes it does, filling the thread with more bias than it already has.

Like I stated before... I've got thicker skin than that. Personal attacks don't bother me.

I just got back from martial arts, luckily i worked out all my aggression.

But that's why we are here today, to make change. I'm glad that you could be part of it.

Hell, i dont. I dont want to be part of cleaning up after Americas [snip]. Its like Iraq.

Or is it because we're a better target?

Ha! Thats like nerds saying they get bullied because of Jealousy.

Of course it isnt, its because your soft and easy to hit.

Ive been through American customs before, i know how simple it is to get something past them.

A principle and/or person like that has no place in our society. I'm shocked that you would even hold them on a pedestal like that.

Well you believe that a person who is willing to die for his beliefs is a hero, right?

And you also say that all beliefs are allowed, right?

So...the only reason you dont like the suicide bomber is because he is against you...right?

You have to be conscious of other viewpoints.

Where do you think those items come from?

Well a long long time ago, people began to replace the bartering and trading system with a monetary system.

Except the proper thread.

Damn, this is why i dont like talking on forums, no tangents allowed.

Except for history itself. You have a dog bite your hand ten times, are you going to not question it happening the eleventh time? If you do, you deserve it.

Well then, wheres your evidence for saying the banks are evil?

Your making the allegations, so you should provide evidence.

If that person has committed crimes repeatedly... sure you can.

This is why you would make a bad Emperor. You believe a person cannot change.

Exactly... examine every nut and bolt.

No, dont you see though? Examining every nut and bolt gives you a false impression of the machine as a whole, simply because a machine in motion is something completely different from its parts.

You are avoiding what I said.

no, im just bored. So you protest, hooray. i have no way of telling if you are talking bull# or not. Your untrusting so you wouldnt believe me if i said it. But i am trusting, so i will take your word for it.

But you obviously havnt done very well since...well...the plan is still there, is it not?





[Mod Edit: Please read the T&C's 1b). Thank you - Jak]


[edit on 6/9/07 by JAK]

Taking away everyone's rights because a few did something wrong..... absurd.

They have a right to protection, do they not?

They look to their leader to protect them from the enemy within.

If they want protection, they must be willing to sacrifice some of their own freedoms.

When the country has learned to operate without crime, then they will gain these freedoms. Until then the liar, the thief and the murderer must be punished.

Won't happen. I wasn't in the wrong for what I said.

Unfortunatly i cannot teach you how wrong you are, simply because you are a bad student. You have no concept of learning new points of view.

Also, you havnt learnt that respect should be given.

I dont care about your viewpoint anymore, simply because a person who says that to me is worth less than the dust under my shoe.

I attacked your core by taking part in a discussion about an American issue, or by citing your own words? How?

you say that i would be a rat? That i would sell out my friends and family?

I have a scars on my body, all places from where i have defended others but putting myself in harms way.

You wont believe me, of course. Your to untrusting.

especially when someone that lives in another nations suggests it to suit their own agenda.

my 'agenda' is the advancement of humankind into a new age of learning, respect and enlightenment.

But because it attacks your "freedoms" in the slightest way, you will oppose it.

That is illogical.

In my honest opinion... there isn't any merit to that type of plan. Besides... this thread is about the National ID card... not getting chipped. Let's stay on topic.

No, i wont. This thread is dead already.

A chip based system allows for hundreds of advantages.

Firstly, all monetary matters are placed into one system, making tax done automatically, and as simple as possible

second, the elimination of physical money will reduce wasted resources which could be used on something else.

thirdly, the chip could have an alarm, perhaps even a GPS, so if the individual is injured or attacked, it can bring help.

etc, etc

ive already written up essays and such on the subject. The merits outweigh the demerits by far. If a person is intelligent enough to realise that a chip is simply 'better', then they will benefit.

If they are stubborn enough to live how they are, they can watch as the world steams ahead into a new age, leaving them behind.

So, you see no merit?

none at all?



[Mod Edit: Personal insult removed. Please read T&C's section 2). Thank you - Jak]

[edit on 6/9/07 by JAK]

reply to post by Octavius Maximus

In Australia im not sure if we have any piece of paper saying we get free speech, but im sure we have it already.

You're not sure? Don't you think it would be wise to find out? Australia is a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary system of government. Which means, your Government grants you the right to speak your mind, however, they can take it away at any given moment that suits them. Here in the U.S., the Government does not grant us the right, we grant that right to ourselves, and the Government cannot take it away.

What about the Sheik who repeatedly assailed womens position in society and that rapists were in the right because of revealing clothing?

The Australian people called for him to be deported, the government stepped in and asked him, he said no. So we left it to his superiors, who removed him of his titles.

I don't know what you're talking about, nor what that has to do with the U.S.

And yet...we have no free speech.

I don't know, and according to your first statement, neither do you.

No, i just dont type arguements well. I prefer speech.

You've provided nothing to your argument, whether or not spoken, to back it up... other than the "cause my sister, that works for the newspaper, said so".

Im saying that a card given to every legal citizen could be created which will assimilate every known card into itself.

Not here in the United States. We're protected against an intrusive Government, unlike Australia.

but it was put to bad use attacking Jews, gypsies, political prisoners, etc.

And you expect me to believe that it wouldn't happen again?

Its un-American because it makes sense. What is typically American is it being rejected.

It's un-American because it allows the Government to be intrusive, which we just so happen to be free from enduring.

Total criminal protection? Try Impossible to enforce.

Difficult yes, impossible no. Doable without infringing our rights and liberties as free American citizens... absolutely. Can they do it without infringing our rights? Sure. Will they... not unless everyone willingly gives up those rights.

What? the freedom to lie about your identity?

How is my demanding that the Government stay out of my personal life, lying about my identity?

The freedom to walk through a street and not be looked at (which is, of course, impossible)

You're comparing apples to oranges.

You are saying the card is unconstitutional because it destroys your freedom to withhold your identity from the government.

Nope. They already know who I am through various forms of identification. There's not justifiable reason why I should now prove myself an American citizen, as means for them to intrude on my privacy, in order for me to take advantage of Federal benefits (across the board).

Plain paranoia. you should stand up for who you are and Proclaim it loud, if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear.

And what do you think I'm doing, or not doing for that matter? I thought we've been over this already.

When i say 'you' i usually mean Americans in general.

"Generally", Americans know they don't have to give up liberties to obtain a false sense of security.

yes yes, dont lose your aluminium hat.

Paranoia.

Historical facts.

to me that sounds wrong, trust is given until it is lost.

That's your prerogative, and is mine.

Thats what happens when you get 'freedom'. it allows Anything to happen, including the bad.

By "anything" happening, is it so wrong of me to hold my elected representatives accountable for their wrongdoings?

Oh no, of course not.

Im the answer to the worlds ills

I rest my case.

your freedom says im allowed to, no matter what i say you have to accept my viewpoint.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

But you protect it, anyway.

Because, it's the supreme law that protects me.

yes it does, filling the thread with more bias than it already has.

Then start a thread about Australians getting a National ID card.

I just got back from martial arts, luckily i worked out all my aggression.

You ever heard the expression, "Never bring a knife to a gunfight."?

Hell, i dont. I dont want to be part of cleaning up after Americas #. Its like Iraq.

Then, please explain to me why you continue to rant in this thread?

Ha! Thats like nerds saying they get bullied because of Jealousy.

Of course it isnt, its because your soft and easy to hit.

Struck a nerve there, didn't I? Historically proven... the only way anyone has been able to make "terrorist attacks" on American soil, is by someone in the Government *allowing* it to happen. I think that contradicts your point.

Well you believe that a person who is willing to die for his beliefs is a hero, right?

We were talking about criminals... you bring up suicide bombers... that makes him/her a terrorist... a criminal. A criminal is not acting according to morals/ethics.

And you also say that all beliefs are allowed, right?

Sure.

So...the only reason you dont like the suicide bomber is because he is against you...right?

Not in the context that we began the discussion.

You have to be conscious of other viewpoints.

You have to be conscious of how you use other viewpoints.

Well a long long time ago, people began to replace the bartering and trading system with a monetary system.

I'm well aware of American history. Now that we're on the same page, with the monetary system in place... answer my question.

Damn, this is why i dont like talking on forums, no tangents allowed.

Just trying to be respectful of the OP and the Terms and Conditions, and to stay on topic.

Well then, wheres your evidence for saying the banks are evil?

Your making the allegations, so you should provide evidence.

Here you go with the "do my work for me". Look it up.

This is why you would make a bad Emperor. You believe a person cannot change.

That person gave me no reason to believe he would change. Trust is earned, remember.

No, dont you see though? Examining every nut and bolt gives you a false impression of the machine as a whole, simply because a machine in motion is something completely different from its parts.

Examining each nut and bolt allow you to see the entire picture... everything that goes into making that "machine" and how it makes it work.

no, im just bored.

Still avoiding me.

So you protest, hooray. i have no way of telling if you are talking bull# or not.

Research it. Make that conclusion on your own.

Your untrusting so you wouldnt believe me if i said it.

You're catching on.

But i am trusting, so i will take your word for it.

So be it.

But you obviously havnt done very well since...well...the plan is still there, is it not?

We're working on that each and every day. Change takes time. Nothing (within reason) happens overnight.

reply to post by Octavius Maximus

They have a right to protection, do they not?

In America, when you're proven to be unfit to live in our society, you lose those rights. Hey, that's the way the laws work.

They look to their leader to protect them from the enemy within.

Protect them from themselves? That's called insanity. We've got help for that, too.

If they want protection, they must be willing to sacrifice some of their own freedoms.

Criminal - they lose those rights.
Non-criminal - absolutely not.

When the country has learned to operate without crime, then they will gain these freedoms.

Keep on track... the criminals lose their rights... not the innocent.

Until then the liar, the thief and the murderer must be punished.

Almost something we could agree on. Those will be punished regardless of what the innocent are doing.

Unfortunatly i cannot teach you how wrong you are, simply because you are a bad student. You have no concept of learning new points of view.

Also, you havnt learnt that respect should be given.

I dont care about your viewpoint anymore, simply because a person who says that to me is worth less than the dust under my shoe.

Personal attacks aren't going to sway me.

You are even stupid enough not to realise what you are saying.

you say that i would be a rat? That i would sell out my friends and family?

I have a scars on my body, all places from where i have defended others but putting myself in harms way.

I said you would rat people out, by the terms you put forth in your statement.

You wont believe me, of course. Your to untrusting.

You've given me no reason to trust you.

my 'agenda' is the advancement of humankind into a new age of learning, respect and enlightenment.

A new age of learning, respect, and enlightenment that doesn't incorporate human rights/freedoms? You've advocated a lack of, or a loss of, freedoms through each of your posts.

But because it attacks your "freedoms" in the slightest way, you will oppose it.

That is illogical.

It's illogical to protect what is mine?

No, i wont. This thread is dead already.

Then I'll gladly take your resignation.

A chip based system allows for hundreds of advantages.

Firstly, all monetary matters are placed into one system, making tax done automatically, and as simple as possible

second, the elimination of physical money will reduce wasted resources which could be used on something else.

thirdly, the chip could have an alarm, perhaps even a GPS, so if the individual is injured or attacked, it can bring help.

etc, etc

Each example you have given are of good will... however, you've missed the biggest picture. Each and every single human being has rights, freedoms, and liberties... whether or not their Nation guarantees them. With that being said, there are issues that must be dealt with in order to obtain the goals that you have set forth. Give me a plan on how you propose that is to be accomplished, and we can work towards that.

ive already written up essays and such on the subject. The merits outweigh the demerits by far. If a person is intelligent enough to realise that a chip is simply 'better', then they will benefit.

Post those essays. By what I've read from you already, this should be rather entertaining. I hope you've done a better job convincing people in your essay, than what you've done here with me.

If they are stubborn enough to live how they are, they can watch as the world steams ahead into a new age, leaving them behind.

They will probably be watching the new age leaving them behind to enjoy their rights, freedoms, and liberties... without a computer chip or a National ID Card... and they will be just as happy, but with one minor difference....


They are still free.

[edit on 8/27/2007 by Infoholic]