Couple flies flag upside down.

reply to post by eyewitness86


All power to ya citizen!

I was stopped under the UK's S.U.S (stop under suspicion law ) by the police recently for wearing my hood up. The officers asked me my name, address, and where i'd come from and going to which I politely refused to give.

It was only when I pulled a pen and paper out of my pocket and went to the front of the patrol car to take down the licence-plate and then ask the officers for their names, ranks, and address of their HQ (as required to be given when asked of by the public per 'Butterworth's Police Law'), stating that I would take the matter up with my MP that they suddenly drove off and left me alone

...just NEVER use profanity and NEVER call them 'pigs' within their earshot!

Originally posted by MrWendal
To touch on something else you said.... you blasted eyewitness about his daughter and what he would do if anything happened to her. Of course any reasonable person would expect him to call the police and ask for help...after all that is what a public servant is there for. So what? He is not supposed to expect a police officer to actually do his job because he feels that a fair amount may be incompetent and clueless? The whole argument that police are here to help does not give any officer the right to act as they please. I will be very suspicious of any officer because I HAVE TO. Cases of police misconduct, brutality, etc etc stretches VERY far back. Before you even put on your badge. Of course not all police are bad guys, but they are all not good guys either. ESPECIALLY police officers who really do not know the laws that are are sworn to uphold and officers like that have no place in LAW ENFORCEMENT. After all, it is tough to enforce laws when you do not know them.

Maybe you just mistyped but I didn't blast eyewitness about his daughter. I blasted him for sounding like someone I am glad I do not know. What I DID say about his daughter was that his disgust, mistrust, and hate for police has to be wearing off on his daughter. SOOOO if something bad (again wish nothing bad on anyone) does happen to her or with her, where will she turn. Will she be afraid to contact the police? Will she report something that may have happened to her? Will her fathers idiotic behavior keep her from making a good choice in a terrifying time? Thats my question.

What eyewitness does in his time of need is up to him. But from all he has posted my guess is police NEVER do any good, never serve the public, and never help their fellow man. I guess in his town he responds to the robberies, the shootings, the fights, the break ins, the rapes, the child abuse cases, etc... I even bet he will be the first one to run over and give CPR and first aid when somone is in need...never having to dial 911. But I agree, even for someone who acts the way he does I would respond and help him if he were in need. You see at the end of the day when i go to bed, I go to bed proud of what I did that day, and I wake up ready to do it all again. I guess some people go to bed with a chip on their shoulder, and no matter what...life to me is way to short to live like that!

And as I stated before, I agree certain officers/deputies do not deserve to wear a badge...I am right there with you...but to be in such fear, makes me wonder what kind of lives some people live.

Originally posted by rcwj75...Will her fathers idiotic behavior keep her from making a good choice in a terrifying time? Thats my question.

With increasing frequency, "calling the cops" doesn't end up being the "good" choice, your argument assumes it's always the best thing to do.

Originally posted by rcwj75
What eyewitness does in his time of need is up to him.

As is the raising of his child.

Originally posted by rcwj75
...but to be in such fear, makes me wonder what kind of lives some people live.

...or what experiences they've had with law enforcement in the past, for whatever reason. There are plenty of real life scenarios, that if you were ever involved in, you'd never trust a badge again either. Your attacks on this paradigm assume that everyone else has been exposed to the exact same life-experiences as you, no more, no less. This is a pretty short-sighted perspective in my opinion.

Originally posted by Unit541
With increasing frequency, "calling the cops" doesn't end up being the "good" choice, your argument assumes it's always the best thing to do.

Ok fair enough, but when it becomes something you cannot handle or are not equipt to handle and that causes someone to get hurt or die, don't blame the police, don't blame anyone but yourself. If it something that CAN be handled without out intervention then so be it...more power to you, just make sure your using your head and not your brass balls..lol..And I dont say that to be an a$$...but i see it a lot....people thinking they can take on a situation..to realize to late that they were in over their heads.

As is the raising of his child.

I agree...raise her how he sees fit, but don't exclude the point I am trying to make by thinking I am trying to tell him what to do. To see my point shouldn't be to hard. If shes in fear or has hate like her dad, you can see where that could become a problem if we as police are ever truly needed by her.

...or what experiences they've had with law enforcement in the past, for whatever reason. There are plenty of real life scenarios, that if you were ever involved in, you'd never trust a badge again either. Your attacks on this paradigm assume that everyone else has been exposed to the exact same life-experiences as you, no more, no less. This is a pretty short-sighted perspective in my opinion.

Ok I'll give you that one....noones life is the same.

I only read the first few postings of this before I lost interest to a degree, but something always strikes me when I read these things. In the original story, it was a posting about a cop harrassing some couple (well, beating and arresting I think it was) for fling the flag upside down, and pinning messages to it. Many repsonded in outrage at the cop's actions, and rightly so.

But the whole issue with the flag as a means of protest bothers me. Now I'm not an ultra-patriotic flag waving loon. I didn't jump on the bandwagon and start fling the old stars and stripes after 9/11. But I am patriotic, and old fashioned in a sense. Yes, the Iraq war is crap and our Constitutional rights seem to mean little these days - and it's something we shoud all rise up about. But there is a right way and a wrong way for protest and political expression.

I've read that the flag is 'just a rag'. Maybe, but it's a 'rag' that a lot of folks have given their lives trying to defend the principles behind it. So why not make a protest sign, or speak out about your beliefs? Why disrespect the symbolism of what the flag should represent? I don't mean that in a corny, redneck sort of way. But it's sort of like the hippies of the 1960's spitting on GI's. Likely 90% or more that got this 'greeting' did nothing but the duty they were called upon to do - which was a hell of a lot more that the spitter. Just because you get nothing but bills in the mail, you don't beat up the postman. Okay, maybe a bad analogy.

Flags do - or at least should - mean something. It's not the colorful scrap of cloth itself, but rather the original meaning and all of the sacrifice behind it. Maybe this type of sentiment is old fashioned now, but that's okay becuase as the world goes to crap the old fashioned aspects just might prove the most noble.

that would be flying the flag - my finger seems incapable of typing the Y

i was avolunteer fireman for years - up to lt- and so i have had many interactions with the police. some were friends before they became cops and some were because of this. as civil servants we are programmed to HELP people and not just abuse our power. i would give my life to save someone from a burning building before seeing them die. cops do to in a different way. imo the bad cops are usually the local ones who let that power go to their head.
when i was on a fire scene IAM IN CHARGE NOT THE POLICE but some didn't understand that and as such would give me a hard time or just leave.
example we had a fire at our only high rise in town which is for elderly and handicapped persons and when the local cops showed up i wanted traffic/crowd control and they basically said fu- but i had 2 staties show up and come right to me and ask what they wanted me to have them do- i told them the same thing and they said np and went and helped out greatly without guestion
with the exception of a few rotten eggs i love cops- and believe me things i could get minor citations for i see them or know they did the same thing. been with some when it has happened lol cops are just human after all. but there is a line. give them a f***** break
don't do anything illegal and you won't/shouldn't have a problem with them.
but as for this case the cop clearly was emotional and overstepped the rights of that indivual without court consent. if i had done that i would be in jail for god knows how long. just because you have a badge doesn't mean you can do what you feel like. period.
and to rcw and all the good cops out there

Originally posted by rcwj75
Ok fair enough, but when it becomes something you cannot handle or are not equipt to handle and that causes someone to get hurt or die, don't blame the police, don't blame anyone but yourself.

Because the police have never been to blame for the injury or death of innocent civilians... Sure...

reply to post by Flyingswordsman

Maybe if you'd read the whole thread before becoming disinterested, you'd understand that the topic of whether or not flying the flag upside down, specifically in this instance, is most assuredly NOT a sign of disrespect in any way shape or form. In fact, the bulk of this thread covers exactly this point.

reply to post by Flyingswordsman


ty flyingswordsman you hit the nail on the head.
flying the flag upside down is not disrespectul it is for distress- how someone interprets that is their opinion
and i 2 finger type so i have np hitting that y key lmao

[edit on 25-2-2008 by bigfoot1212]

Originally posted by Unit541
Because the police have never been to blame for the injury or death of innocent civilians... Sure...

Not what I said! Nor did I imply that. We have done things that have cost people their lives. And it will happen again unfortunatly. What I AM saying is when you deal with high stress dangerous situations on a daily basis you have the best chance at settling it without anyone getting hurt/killed. Does it always pan out that way...no...if it did WOW would life be so much better for everyone.

Its like your house catching fire...you hate fireman so you try to outten it with two 16oz cups, running back and forth to the sink. OR, you call the FD and they come with huge trucks, hoses, and access to a load of water to get the job done quicker and more efficiently. Does that mean they will always be able to save your house from complete distruction...NOPE...but they will come and try their best for you! Thats my point...

I guess what it boils down to is as you stated earlier...if you have nothing but bad experiance with cops then your mistrust is warranted, but as bigfoot stated...in my experiance...the only people who have had complete negative contact with us are those who DID deserve to be behind bars or needed to face justice for doing something against the law.

i'm a very law abiding citizen with the exception of a few minor things i occasionally do- and have always been let go because the cop determined it wasn't worth the aggravation. if he wanted to push it he could have. but after determining i'm not a menace or threat i was on my way. had to watch my back but hey understood. some cops have nothing better to do than look for some stupid obscure law and using it to arrest someone.
what i have learned about cops( even when they are my friends)
a) be polite- address them as yes sir/ yes maam
b) don't in anyway get confrontational with them
c) stand your ground according to the law but never show any disrespect to them- they will more than likely back down and send you off with just a ticket
your thoughts rcw?

Originally posted by bigfoot1212
a) be polite- address them as yes sir/ yes maam
b) don't in anyway get confrontational with them
c) stand your ground according to the law but never show any disrespect to them- they will more than likely back down and send you off with just a ticket
your thoughts rcw?

A: Correct...I will be nice to all I come across and yes cop haters I do demand the same in return. We may not like each other on the scene..you may think I am a pig, I may think your a scumbag...but you will be called MR or MRS/MS ??? so I expect the same treatment.

B & C: True! (They sort of go hand and hand) I will agree with eyewitness on one thing...if you think we did something wrong or falsly ticketed you take it to court. Fighting/Arguing about it on the street is not the way to approach it. If you KNOW your in the right and we are not, its ok to say so, but do it in a mature manner. I have had someone question my ticket before...she did it VERY nicely, no trouble....and because of that i took a few extra minutes to go back to my patrol car and look up the code section, rather then deal with it in court. Low and behold she was correct, and it was on me. I walked up, told her to have a nice day and thanked her for catching me up on the law..! No need to get upset, I make mistakes, forget stuff, etc....so its no biggy.

Where the problem starts are guys who don't know how to keep their cool and have that CHIP on their sholder. They get loud, they get pushy, they start to demand and sometimes they make overt actions....and thats where it goes downhill!!!

reply to post by bigfoot1212


Just so RCW understands my point of view, I agree completely with your post. I myself have had mixed experiences with law enforcement. Some negative, but mostly positive. The issue I believe, is that the "bad apples" are becoming increasingly common. As an example from my own personal experience, I called the police several months ago due to a disturbance outside my home several months ago, late at night. When the police arrived, they demanded to search my home. No warrant, no probable cause, and I was the one who called them. When asked what they were looking for, they responded that they needed to search for drugs. Long story short, I was arrested, in front of my 8 and 10 year old daughters, for "impeding an investigation". Apparently they were "investigating" a "report" of a disturbance in the neighborhood. Nobody cared that the "disturbance" was reported by ME. Now, I would have been oblivious to the situation, as it was my two young daughters who were awoken by the commotion outside, and in turn, woke me. So, they're frightened out of bed, and ran to dad for protection. Dad then called the police, who then proceeded to arrest dad for refusing to allow them to illegally search the home. By the way, this is an upper middle class neighborhood that's quiet and safe for the most part, there's nothing shady about the house, the neighborhood, or me. I invited the officers in, and even offered them coffee. Things only got complicated when I opposed their desires to search areas of my home that were not in "plain view" to them.

Now, how do you think my daughters feel about the police.

Would all police officers have handled this in the same way? Undoubtedly not, but the fact is that incidents such as this are occurring with increasing frequency. I'd still call the cops if needed, because more often than not, they'll render the aid needed, and cause no harm. However, without massive reform, it won't be long before the common sentiment is that calling the cops makes things worse for everyone.

reply to post by Unit541


With the situation you described...and if thats exactly what happened then the officers acted unlike any I have worked with, thank god. And I would not have handled it in that manner. As I stated before, and maybe this is where some are trying to get...these days officers are to eager to be supercop and make the big bust, etc. And when they do that they want to search homes, vehicles, etc.....why...I have no idea. There is plenty to keep me busy...if I need to enter a persons home it is for GOOD reason....and will be done right. If I'm going as far as wanting to search your house, I already have enough on you...now I'm making sure to close the case, not harass you.

reply to post by Unit541


that is a bit excessive- you may have a lawsuit there- find a good jew lawyer lmao (no offense to the jews)
police can only search and obtain a warrant for what they believe may be there unless they have probable cause ?
if they ask you say no (and no does mean an admission of guilt or grounds on probable cause) and no matter how irrate they get they are not legally allowed to search- they may threaten and such but stand your ground and if need be call your lawyer to come over.
also if they search your house or whatever they are only allowed to search for what is on the warrant. i.e. they come to your house searching for guns but find coke in an aspirin bottle they can't use that as evidence because it was found in a place that couldn't harbor a gun- so hence an illegal search
at least in pa. it is anyway

thats true everywhere bigfoot. Thats the scope of the search, falls under the 4th amendmant. Like you said, if a search warrant says we are looking for guns..what type? If its a pistol, I can look anywhere a pistol could be hidden...not an asprin bottle..lol, but anywhere COMMON SENSE dictates. If it's rifles, that limits me even more because they can only be stored in limited spots...etc...

reply to post by rcwj75


exactly my point ty
and if i ever figure out how to use this site i would like to add you as a friend!
but an example my work van broke down along side of a major highway
not more than 5 minutes after a cop pulled up and of course asked me for the usual papers
i told him i have a loaded 45 in my briefcase on the seat and he didn't act alarmed at all just asked if i had a permit for it and i showed him and he ran all my papers thru and made sure i was getting a tow truck and said have a good day
every 15 min a cop would drive by slowly to make sure i was oki would wave and they would wave back and take off
that is what my taxes pay for -cops should be level headed and compassionate people and not the monsters everyone wants to think they are or make them out to be- some are some aren't period. same can be said about any group of people

The cop is lucky to be alive.

Had this been my home, and he broke in and assaulted me, he would probably have a bullet in his forehead.

reply to post by Double Eights


As would you, and your legacy would be that of a loony home-grown terrorist who lured a peace officer to his demise to further the anti-american agenda. I too am glad it wasn't you, as you would have provided additional justification for the repeal of the second amendment.

reply to post by Unit541


From what I gathered about the incident, a cop was pressured by his buddies to go to some innocent couples home and threaten them.

The couple closed the door on him [cop], and then the cop broke their door down and assaulted the man in his own home.

No warrant. No reason for the assault. No justification. No threat from the homeowner.

If a guy breaks into my house, whether he be a police officer or not, and ASSAULTS me with no provocation, I will kill him. I have the right to protect my person and my property, no one, NO ONE, can take that away from me.

Edit: spelling error.

[edit on 25-2-2008 by Double Eights]

[edit on 25-2-2008 by Double Eights]