Why violent revolution is a TERRIBLE idea

It is in my oppinion that violent uprisings are easier to dismiss as criminal activity by the government. In order to accomplish anything in so far as changing the government, the people's support must be won. A civil war is never entirely embraced. I think the greatest example of a succesful change in government is the transition undergone in india by ghandi. His messege was clear and relevant to everyone he wished to help him. Apart from that his tactics were spotless, using a countries legal code for purposeful opposition, is the greatest tool against corrupt leaders. Even if all is dismissed due to interferance in the due process of criminal activity, public support sky rockets from the mere fact that the issue was adressed in the first place. Think back to when clinton got that blow job, though trivial, the public screached and roared over it. Had it been another watergate level type scandal and not a simple act of felaciao,the profesional community would have mustered up the limited real justice we are actually capable of. Beleive it or not there are some good apples in the governmental bunch, you just have to get at them before they turn bad, get ousted, or regret holding their stance.

Originally posted by graphicsman1977
the fallacy of the argument regarding the rich paying lower taxes is widely believed and distributed amongst those of us not making millions. That's quite sad, because it shows an innate biase towards those who succeed, and an unwillingness to digest proper fact.

1. The rich pay more taxes than anyone in this country, accounting for 52% of the total tax burden, while comprising a mere 2-5% of the population.

Which level of richness do you quote? Those that lay in the top brackets of the US often go uncounted, while the upper-middle (accounting for 52% of the taxes) pay a high price for their lives. I give you this article : The Super Rich Are Out Of Site

Originally posted by Voxel
BTW, I kind of agree, the ultimate goal of our revolution should be to have nonviolent change.

This was the entire purpose of all of the Citizens' Rights listed in the Bill of Rights; Particularly the 1st Amendment which provides the tools needed for the peaceful revolution...The 2nd Amendment Rights are to be used only as a last resort, when the Government has gotten violent on the Poeple.
There are quite a lot of People out there now, working with our 1st Amendment Rights to make the crooks in Government stand up & be held accountable; The internet has been a big help for allowing People to get news outside of the mainstream media circles. More & more People every day are waking up to the truth & using the peaceful side of revolution...And making some success with it too!
The main problem is that there's now so much corruption that Congress has been letting the Executive Branch grab more Powers & hide itself behind a facade that's degraded the Constitutional "checks & balances" system. The fact that Bush stacked the Judicial Branch in his favor is merely one more way that he's degraded the Checks & Balances.

This is why the People need to tell the "powers that be" that we're sick & tired of only being offered candidates that serve corporate interests...We need more people, like Ron Paul for example, who take their Constitutional Oath seriously. First, We The People have to get the crooks out of the Government & replace them with Constitutionally-minded people who will correct the damage that's been done in Government for the past 100 years or so.

I still believe that it can be done peacefully, as long as there's still time before the White House decides to cut the string holding Damocles' Sword...Day by day, I see continually increasing progress being made peacefully. However, there's been a lot of built-up damage done over a long period of time; Rome wasn't built in a day, but it only took Nero about that much time to burn it down.

Originally posted by Project_Silo
I honestly do not see anyway around it anymore.If a major "terrorist" attack does happen and they implament a police state....it's on.If i get a knock on the door you can bet your rear end I'm not going any where and they are not coming in.

That's the spirit! Hope for the best but prepare for the worst!
Speaking of being prepared for the worst...

Originally posted by Focused_Life
Hey if a snowball at boston can start a revolution why can't a thread on a website? We should all take a march down to washington storm into congress and demand to remove bush..

Hey, I've already suggested in other threads an idea that could work & still be peaceful...Get a couple of million poeple together & march into Washington D.C. to hold a massive Citizens' Arrest! What are they going to do? Gas a couple of million People, all on TV news? If the actual Citizens' Arrest doesn't work out as planned, there's still 298 million-plus People in the country who'll see the broadcast...And get really honked off!

Originally posted by Zenspider
I do not mean to demean anyone here - but....without some major military support you guys are not taking anything back soon.

Source: US Constitution; Bill of Rights--2nd Amendment

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Besides having more than 30% of 300 million regular "Joe Sixpack" Citizens already legally armed, there's still all of these State Militias to help out...The State Militias are legally allowed to stock "military-grade" weaponry. Plus, The People & the Militias are a lot more "in tune" with the lay of the land than the regular military returning from overseas...Which Bush refuses to withdraw because that would really mess up his interests. Besides that, were you aware that, in a nation with a population over 300 million, the regular Armed Forces represent about 2% of that...Talk about having some serious numbers on our side!
This is the main reason why the "powers that be" wanted to make us lazy & apathetic through deception & quasi/non-legal authority...They're afraid of how badly outnumbered they really are!

Originally posted by merryxmas
I'm torn. Not on how I feel about it but on how it would actually unfold. I love the idealism in JFK's quote "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." but I feel that with the conditioning and practice the soldiers have I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be used against US citizens.

Well, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the regular military would go AWOL & fight the Government; Those would be the soldiers who would be unwilling to turn on their own families & friends, regardless of being issued illegal orders. I remember the initial Oath that every active military person must take...It includes, "uphold the Constitution & defend my country against all enemies, foreign & domestic." Besides that, even if soldiers carry out illegal orders, they can still be brought to court martial afterwards; There is no defense under, "I was only following orders," if the orders themselves were illegal.

Originally posted by ninthaxis
America won its independence from a violent revolution.

But the US was violent in defense only...England sent the Redcoats over here, but we never sent any troops over to England.
This is the main point behind our 2nd Amendment Right to bear arms...Only if our other Rights to hold Government accountable have failed & if the Government attacks with violence should we resort to more violence. Such was the intent of the Founding Forefathers, who were (for all intents & purposes) geniuses in their own right when they wrote the Constitution.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
Right now, your best revolutionary option is your vote and all that goes along with it.

...And since we know that the "paperless voting machines" can't be trusted, always go with the good 'ol reliable Absentee Ballot! And be sure to remind everyone you know that, in a paperless voting booth, they can still have the option to make a paper trail to be sure their votes are counted!
If none of the candidates can be trusted, vote "No Confidence" or write in the name of someone who you can trust (whether they're actually a candidate or not).

Whichever way they go about it, Americans had better do something soon because they may not have long before it is too late and the military industrial government of the USA has troops on every streetcorner.

Ballots instead of bullets is good in theory, but in practice means nothing. Bush lost the popular vote and received the majority of the Electoral College votes. That and felons lose their right to vote, so that rules me out

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
choose ballots over bullets

Ah but what happens when that option has been compromised?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Violent Revolution.. is there really any other kind? Political structure has some properties similar to physics in that people in power tend to stay in power until acted upon by another force. Unfortunately you throw the concepts of human nature into that equation, the intertia of political power becomes repression and the acting opposing force inevitably becomes violence. Unfortuantely, if history stands to exemplify it, there is no other effective means of removing tyranny.

You are aware that a voilent up rising would be seen as a terroristic threat in the new United Bush States? Any crap like that would end up just like Waco. If your going to revolt now you have to use your children and educate them and make them understand that the people who have control now are being mis-guided buy profit and personal or finacial gain. It would take at lest 25 years of educating a group of kids to think in constitutional ways to get into the system to try to start weeding out those who draw up laws like they are a cartoons. It's not about revolution now it's about raising a new generation to think differently than those who are in power now for the better of America.

the future is as maliable as the children you rear

There is no need for an armed revolution. We need a mental revolution. We need to learn to think differently about our part in the world. A time when we learn to walk together without violence, a time when we stop trying to build up needless material goods, a time when we all work together to make the world a better place for the next generation. I know it isn't as exciting or glorious, but we don't need wars to make the world a better place. We need a moment of mental clarity to encourage us to do more to change ourselves and to change the world around us.

I do not see a single person here stating we NEED a armed revolution. I see people pointing out its pros/cons just as those we do NOT want armed conflict are doing. There may not be a need for armed revolution now or ever, but it would be stupid to have never thought about the possibility. I dont think it should be a first resort, nor a last resort. Other options should be given time to accomplish results, but it may be too late if we exhaust all other possibilities.

Originally posted by merryxmas
But when you say "we will take it back" I'm not so sure. What makes you think we will take it back? ... I can't sense that palpable energy, that oneness that people speak about when they were joined together in the 1960's. ... I only see a revolution of any sort (peaceful or otherwise) going forward if you can get an entire state to declare it's secession from the Union. Only then would people start paying attention and start believing in the power of change once again.

You may be right. You do not see a contempt for the government and it's deeds in everyday life as you do here on the internet. Is it the anonymity? Who can say for sure? But, the fact remains that you do see a large part of the users on the internet in utter discontentment for this administration. I agree with you that this isn't likely to step up and take the reigns of revolution and stride forward anytime soon.

When I said, "We will take it back." I was saying so in a self-determined attitude. Not to reflect the mind-set of America, but only display the determination I have for the reform of this corrupt Executive, Legislative, and Judicial system.

I think your succession idea is great. But, it's remniscient of backwoods, red-neck stereotyping because of the reputation it took on with the American Civil War.

On another note: Everyone should check out more on this subject from Justin Oldham's thread. Very informative.

[edit on 31-7-2007 by tyranny22]

So we are faced with an approching world government....maybe. Lets say everything goes as well as we could possibly immagine, how would we preserve the new found justice, truth, quality of existance. What would we do to keep it as pure to good as we can imagine. would a variant of a world government be the solution. One which would in this case be the maxim of our ideal. I would lean towards NO. Though I could not immagine a world perged of evil (current affliction) remaining that way without one. What would be our answer...a limited world government modeled after our own american system with checks and balances....which have failed us before, or the other extreme a centralized institution with legislative powers but like the UN to offer mediation between peoples and enforce said checks and balances? I would prefer to preserve our diversity and avoid concentrating power in one institution that may in the future be headed by an individual that may or may not want to rule our then truly free world.

When that defining moment comes, it'll matter that WE stayed true to our social ethics and Constitutional principles. No mater how that defining moment goes down, it will be percieved as an act of overly agressive government if...and only if...the initiators of that event are the people who are responsible for that over-reaching government in the first place.

Consider one historical point. British forces marched on the armory at Concord in a pre-emptive strike to head off insurrection. They did that. They tipped their hand. If the British had marched to put down a revolt in progress, we wouldn't be having this conversation today.

We can't strike pre-emptively because it won't be seen for what it is. We can, however, win hearts and minds by minding our P's and Q's until THEY do the one stupid thingthat initiates the 'event.' For as longas we can, we must be the better example.

Well, while we sit back and contemplate what to do, they (our leaders) continue to erode little "freedoms" here and there.

Pretty soon, everyone will have a breathalizer built into your car. Can't get license plates, without insurance.

Have to be $200,000 in debt, to be succesful. 5 day work week is turning into a 7 day work week.

Cameras everywhere, because nobody trusts anybody. We're polluting our food, water, ourselves.

United States of America, is not united any more. People are unhappy, tired, and quite frankly, pissed off. It's a trap. And we have fallen for it.

I say, lets kick some butt. I'd rather die living, than live dying.

stompk,right on man right on.

I cannot agree more with every word in this post.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Yes, it's true American gov't corruption is at an apparent all-time high. Yes, it's true that there are both implicit and explicit calls for violent revolution on this forum and elsewhere.

For the love of God (or reason, take your pick), please don't do it!!!

Let's go back to the early 1900s. The Russians thought they were getting rid of their tyrants, but instead they went from the frying pan into the fire, setting the stage for 70 years of ultra-oppressive communism.

Is this really what we want for our country?

Or we can sit around like sheep and wait for the government form the North American Union. Time is running out.

Baaaa Baaaaa

GW and Cheney are the big bad wolves are we gonna let them do what they want? As citizens its our duty to set our government straight.

I say enough..

I think a lot of people are treating the Russian Revolution like some odd, isolated incident. What happened there could still happen here if a violent revolution were to unfold! Revolutions are complicated and unpredictable things. People could start out with noble ideas but betray them the moment they become drunk with power.

For those reasons, I support giving peaceful change a fair shot. I don't think the electoral system is totally broken, if it were how do you explain all those bozos that were thrown out last November? I say lets try to get someone in office who will really turn things around, and if they don't, we can throw them out. If the politicians could be pressured into ending the Vietnam War, what's to say they couldn't be pressured again?

If the electorial system is not rigged then how did bush make it to the whitehouse in the first place.His good ol brother jeb bush governer of florida helped him out,remember all the recounts?It's his brother or cousen i cannot remember

That's a good question, PS. Well, you see the electoral system is riggable and has been rigged but all the hacking in the world can't turn a landside defeat into even a marginal victory. There was malfeasance in 2006, but it was not enough...no one would believe it if the GOP came out strong on that one so the fix was called off.

Earlier in the thread I saw someone mention overall attitude towards the government, but a thing to keep in mind is that probably 90% of the talk one sees on the internet is just that, talk. Under the pseudo anonymity of the internet people become brave and say a lot of things that they never would even dream of in the real physical world. A lot of the claims of those who are willing to fight and die to change things here in the US are hollow words at best. Then there is the matter of determination and drive to keep up the inner fuel required to push a revolution forward, a week or so of heavy fighting is the most one could expect from the people here; after the first few skirmishes ended in terrible losses of life on the side of the citizens the will to continue would be completely broken.

While I can definitely see a time and a place for taking up arms and carrying out the duties we have under our founding documentation I don't see people in general having the training, skills much less the will to spend months or even years fighting with their countrymen in open combat over the future of the country. It would be nice to believe we still have that kind of backbone to do what is needed in dire times, but few people have ever shown me that level of commitment to ideals where they are ready to die for a cause.