where did the material for the big bang come from? (Alternative to"who created god")

Originally posted by reject
well if there was really NOTHING but space in the beginning, there'd have to ba a tremendous vacuum. Maybe the vacuum proved too strong it ripped the nothingness of space?

Even Space did Not exist.....

The State of Consciousness is Non Dimensional....

Dimension was also a Concept before being introduced in its manifestation.....

I understand that this isn't the main point of your topic but I thought I should mention this anyway. I always thought that when someone asks "Who created God" they are also asking "If God can exist without a creator why cant the universe exist without one too?" and "If the universe can exist without the need for a creator then what requirement is there for said creator?".

The reason I have to believe this is that one of the famous arguments for the existence of God states that everything has a cause and everything in turn is a cause for something else, you can imagine this like a chain of causes. To avoid this chain being infinite into the past they claim there must be a causeless causer (God) who started all this off. A good criticism of this as I have mentioned would be to ask why there is a need for an additional causeless causer, couldn't the universe fill this role itself?



On topic this time. The big bang is just one theory, albeit a very popular theory, one theory similar to the big bang is that the universe expands and collapses perpetually, this theory also avoids the problems with the singularity as the universe expands before it gets to that point. It seems the full article I read about this in is available online; Did our cosmos exist before the big bang?

One thing to consider also is that our understanding is based on the world around us and how the universe seems to have worked in our small pocket of time and space. Our understanding seems to be mostly geared around survival. Perhaps questions about "before" the universe don't apply for the universe as a whole. Just because such questions make sense for everyday situations and objects doesn't mean they scale well, anyway, so far we have only somewhat successfully answered such questions for said everyday situations and objects.

Originally posted by Pilgrum
We are still to locate sufficient matter in the universe to indicate the apparent expansion will eventually reverse and all the galaxies collapse back into a single point perhaps by all the black holes combining into one capable of compressing all matter to some point of critical mass which repeats the cycle again with a massive 'big bang' and all creation is repeated subject to the random laws of chaos.

The Vedic writings in sanskrit actually give a figure for 1 brahma cycle (the time between big bangs) as being 311,040,000,000,000 earth years and places us at about midway in the current cycle.

We are identifying more 'dark matter' all the time as the gravitational 'glue' that holds the galaxies together.

[QUOTE]
The life span of Brahma is identical with the duration of the universe. This time span, called a maha-kalpa, is also the duration of one breathing in and out of Maha-Vishnu, the Personality of Godhead. Maha-Vishnu lies down within the ocean of causality and sleeps. He is eternal, and He dreams the material world in His cosmic slumber. When He exhales, all the universes emanate from the pores of His skin, and a Brahma is born within each universe. When He inhales, Brahma dies, and He sucks the universes into His mouth and destroys them. With each exhalation, the entire process starts anew. This cycle goes on eternally and is therefore also called eternal time.
[/QUOTE]

This has always struck me as so much closer to what science has revealed than any religion I can think of, that I think Hinduism and its offshoot Buddhism are the closest to truth, at least as far as cosmology. And if they have it right there, (which is is just amazing for an ancient people), the rest of the belief might be the most truthful also.

Christian ignorance, they believe that in some point of time there was nothing, that you go back in time to a point where there’s absolutely no molecules no nothing and all of a sudden there’s a bang.

Now when Christians talk about going back to a time when there was nothing, well while we don’t know exactly how the universe started, the prevalent theories don’t say there wasn’t anything as a matter of fact the first law of thermodynamics is that matter or energy can’t be destroyed, they can only change form. So that would dictate that the universe has always existed in some form.

We can’t get passed the planck time, which is a very tiny unit of time between the actual moment/beginning of the expansion of the singularity. So we can’t trace any further then that so anything further back is speculation right now.

Now physicists will often say that time began with the big bang, now what they’re talking about for example what hawking says it is that because we can’t talk about anything prior to the point of expansion you might as well cut those things out of the theory. He’s not saying that time doesn’t exist, he’s saying there’s really no point talking about it prior to the formation of the current incarnation of the universe.

So it’s not like he’s saying time didn’t exist, he’s simply saying it’s unimportant until this universe forms and at that point there’s something we can measure. Prior to that we have nothing we can measure and so we can’t really talk about it so let’s just say for the sake of the theory that time starts with our universe.

So it’s not that he’s saying that it actually started with the universe, he’s simply saying that’s when it becomes relevant to us

reply to post by andre18


These theories, only hold water as to say, if the universe is not taken to be a holographic program, or of any other reality,,,

What if All is only based on concepts, in processing system, that what you experience is only virtual reality at its best.

No I did Not get the Idea from Matrix Trilogy as have been involved in R&D in this area long before Matrix Trilogy came out!

The film was the result of some technicians thinking Not the cause of such thoughts....

Amusing as the film was...

Perhaps the real system, has everyone fooled, not because we are stupid, but because the processing system and programs, are done so exceedingly well, slightly ahead of our knowledge to date....

If this is the case, then physics is only a set of rules laid down in the program that produces our experienced reality.

Maybe we are looking at this Universe in the wrong way...

In other words we are trying to see, how the TV or Computer works by taking note of what is going on, on the screen instead of dismantling the machine.

After all humankind is trying to produce AI (artificial Intelligence), perhaps this is because deep down in our psychology, we in fact accept that the Universe is the result of intelligence....

I don't mean a god of/in human understanding, but instead pure intelligence and awareness.

By Intelligence I mean the ability to be conscious of, to organise (perhaps as a program), and manipulate or process Concepts, then manifest them in some way.

The goings on or happenings in this Universe is the story, but what is generating or producing the story or happening...

There is the "Observed" and the "Observer".

Your Consciousness is "Observing" and your bodily/worldly experience is that which is being "Observed" by the Mind or Conscious State which is the observer.

Is "3D" merely a projected condition or actual, and how do we prove either way ???

Is the Laws of physics, the rules within a program that produces the experience, or is physics the end result.

How do we apply tests to find these things out ???

Through a simple mechanical device, which I have shown in other threads, you can see another side of your being, that involves strings of Geometric shapes and fonts that never stop playing but morph from one to another in rotation.

This Phenomena is tightly controlled and is repetitive...

And Not only that but we all see a similar Phenomena taking place...

This geometry, is in the form of square frames, clusters of squares in different patterns and colours, coloured Octagonal frames in clusters, rings of 8, 12, 16 etc hexagonal frames, 5 pointed stars and 6 pointed stars etc etc.

This can be seen by any living person. (No Drugs Involved)

So there is definitely more we don't understand, than what we think we understand to date.

What will we know and understand in 10,000 years time and will it be similar as today ???

I don't think so, do you ????

Well I sincerely hope Not anyway..... LOL

That is Not to say we are stupid, but rather uninformed....

And probably won't ever get to the end of learning... LOL..

We simply don't have enough information yet, to understand the actual situation, but I am optimistic that one day we will have a better idea, than what we what we do today.

In Science there are huge debates going on and it is a natural and an ongoing process of discovery slowly changing in understanding, not necessarily because we have been wrong, but rather because we are very slowly becoming more informed as time goes on.

Well we hope this is the case anyway.... LOL...

In the future our technologies will change as our needs change and as we become more informed.....

I wish I had seen this before. I have the answer.

Time did not exist before the big bang, and there fore there needed to be an introduction of time into the empty universe for things to get started.

The only way time could be introduced to a universe with out time is via a paradox. The paradox is a time traveler.

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller


These theories, only hold water as to say the evidence scientists have collected over the past hundred years to support the theory is correct – well the evidence is there, just pick up a science book man.........

Utter rubbish. To believe this universe, this reality we live in is a program. There is absolutely no scientific evidence for such a theory.

What if All is only based on concepts, in processing system, that what you experience is only virtual reality at its best.

What if we were sneezed into existence by a gigantic nose – what if we are kid’s science experiment like an ant farm, what if etc....

There is NO evidence for what you are suggesting.

I don't mean a god of/in human understanding, but instead pure intelligence and awareness.

Question, Do you believe in the big bang?

reply to post by andre18


Hi andre18,

All are free to believe in there on beliefs, being only the result of indoctrination...

You belief in others theories....

I shall not say your thoughts or beliefs are rubbish, but instead fully understand your situation, which is quite normal under the circumstances, but I guess the future will either agree with you, or disagree with you. We shall wait and see OK?

As for me, I shall reserve any beliefs in anything and see what transpires, hopefully learning on the way, rather than rush in like fool, and believe anything put forward in human theory by the so called qualified experts qualified by equally uninformed human beings that can't solve the problems of humanity...

Question, Do you believe in the big bang?

Answer No!

If I did, I would be denying the truth what ever that may be.

If I find All knowledge then I may be able to help you but I seriously doubt that this will happen on Earth.

The world is too full of B.S.. so much so it is destroying us all.

But I remain hopeful that we shall come to know the Truth eventually... LOL..

It is Not a mater of what we believe in, or disbelieve in, whether it may be philosophy, so called science, or theology, as this can not change the truth, whatever the truth may be ???

I have no reason to set in concrete, any belief and say this or that is absolute.

Only a fool tries to dictate what anything is or is Not, as it all comes down to human opinion or belief, which varies all over the earth ever changing in time, like fashions.

If there is Life else where in your Universe, do you really believe they will have the same scientific understanding as you ????

Somehow I think Not...LOL..

There is No way you can say, that the so called understanding we have now, will be the same in 10,000 years time, to think so is to be very, very, naive and shallow to say the least...

Belief does Not change Truth, whether Scientific or religious or of any other theory...

But as I have said it is your right and freedom to think whatever you like or put your trust in human primates as for me I will remain very very cautious and Not trust Human Primates, and not even my own flesh...

I shall remain open minded without judgement and muse at the world and humankind (including my own flesh) until all the problems of humankind disappear.

You belief in others theories....

Yeah, theories that are FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by the so called qualified experts

ROFL

A thought: When you ask questions like why are we here, you say why, you imply purpose and design and that narrows the possibilities of the answers, it narrows the directions in which you can look for answers. So basically you’re assuming the answer and then going looking for it and then when you don’t find anything satisfying you feel justified, presuming that your original presumption was correct.

And that’s not the way science works, that’s not the way we learn or understand anything and if we have no way of investigating and no way of understanding what happened prior to the big bang, then it’s asinine to speculate the cause and it’s incredibly asinine to make up – oh it must have been an intelligence because that’s what you’re most comfortable with.

Look, your mind is at least partially closed because you are narrowing the possible answers to only those that you’re most comfortable with. That isn’t science, it’s not reason, it’s not logic, it’s not wisdom, its fantasy its comfort. You’re seeking the answer you’re most comfortable with and I’m sorry but that’s not a path to truth.

I am interested in where all this comes from but I can also accept that there maybe questions that not only do we not have the answer to them now, we may never have the answer to them. So let’s instead focus on answering the questions that we can ask, continue to seek out the explanations as best we can and not narrow the focus of out examination in such a way that we are making appeals to the supernatural.
That’s just not the way to go about it.

If you would like to educate yourself please watch these videos




[edit on 4-1-2009 by andre18]

reply to post by andre18


Curious I didn't know it was about being as you put it...

comfortable with.

It sounds like you are saying unless, you feel comfortable with anything or it is not according to your understand, you wish to make up a theory according to humankind, just because it may burst your bubble...

Yes Theories are Fact....LOL..

A fact that they are only theories....

Pride in humanity is OK in small doses but really.....

Education....

Do yo mean a few letters at the end of a name given by human primates because you have been brainwashed by their own standards ???

Yes I do have a few so called qualifications but In another 20 years they won't be worth the paper they are written on and are possibly worth nothing at all right now, except to try and impress.... LOL..

But these qualifications really only say, that I (presumably) accept the education system, laid down in my own country.... LOL..

Well, you know nothing at all about myself and you make assumptions about my background,

I guess this is very Scientific too.

Perhaps it's your hidden fear, that you may not be in control of your life, and are frustrated, or you just want things to be comfortable for yourself, by putting your faith in the foolishness of humankind...

The statements I made regarding the Possibility of the origin of your existence, was only intended as an alternative, considering humankind has all the answers (just being a little cynical in my old age)... LOL..

I have partaken in a project, for the last 15 years, that involves many staff and requires me to travel to other countries, working with this, so I guess many intelligent people are way off your own beliefs, aren't they ???

But that's OK....

I don't demand that you should adopt any other ideas...

I'll continue working with them and I guess time, shows the foolishness of humankind doesn't it ????

Enjoy your quest, perhaps we may communicate again sometime in the future, that is if I am still alive, and review the worlds beliefs....

You never know you may prove me to be..........or then again .....

When all the possibilities have been exhausted, then maybe, just maybe, we may come to have a peek at the Truth.

I hope we will anyway...

If the understanding and knowledge of Humankind, is as advanced as you believe it to be, then you and I would be crossing Galaxies, instead of sitting behind our inadequate computers, pretending to be enlightened in our earth bound Zoo.

I do not say this as to insult humanity, but rather seeing humankind as being very recent in the universe, and totally uninformed, about what is really going on in this experience, or even have the faintest idea about the workings....

The story or experience appears totally different that what is actually producing it..... LOL..

So by studying the result, does in No way, give you the understanding of how it is produced!

Hell, humankind is still pondering over the possibility of intelligent life else where in the Universe.

Humankind can't even make piece with each other, or cure the common cold, or stop polluting his own environment, let alone accept that they are Not alone in this Universe, or even understand other Universes and Worlds nothing at all like the Universe you assume you understand...

Yes we are All in need of information and knowledge.

But there is knowledge and there is also Knowledge.

Finding out our errors is a part of learning....

And we make many don't we ????

So don't struggle with/in yourself, and sit back and enjoy your experience, at least while we can....

[edit on 4-1-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]

god didn't directly create earth, but he created the big bang

reply to post by fiftyfifty

where did the material for the big bang come from?

The aliens got the materials from EBay. (Aliens do timetravel)

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
god didn't directly create earth, but he created the big bang

How ???????????? From What ???????????

Where did everything come from ? How can everything come from nothing ? Nothing is still something, but you really can't make anything out of it. If god made eveything, then where did he come from ? Everything just goes on and on and on. How was anything even made ? If everything was just a plain white space, then where did that come from ? In my opinion, this question will never have a true answer. Everything was made of nothing.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


First you need to know and understand the Nature of "Nothing"....

For example the centre of a circle has no size or dimension...

So I guess nothing exists at the centre.

If it acquired size or shape it would no longer be the centre, but would have to exist, between the centre and its outer boundaries... LOL

So we could say there is nothing in the Centre of a circle, but then you and I both know that the centre does exist and it is conceptual!

I guess if we had No concepts in our Computer Programs, you would Not be on the net right now as Programming is based on concepts.

But how often do you hear people say there is nothing in there, or there is nothing out there, or it Contains "Nothing"???

How can something Contain "Nothing"?

Unless of course, "Nothing" is "Something", then it can be Contained... LOL

The Subject of "Nothing" is the Most Complicated of All Subjects and that is why, not much research is done in this area, as humankind does Not know how to address this subject, being abstract in nature and elusive...

When Humanity comes to understand The "Nothing" then humanity will come to understand their "roots" and where and how All came into being.

But who of humanity have the courage and the time to research the Component we call "Nothing"....

There is One fact that "Nothing" is actually a Component of The All...

Even Scientists can tell you that the Universe is mainly made up of nothing...

Nothing having Space ???? So I guess when you look at this Nothing it can actually have Dimension to it within the Boundaries of the "Outer" or Container.... LOL...

There is so much humankind does Not understand about the most simple of all things in principle and yet so Involved in everything..... "Nothing".... LOL..

Originally posted by fiftyfifty

Time began when the big bang occured right? So what was this period before.. what was in it? Where the hell did it all come from?

all matter is energy.
all energy is thought.

it's all thought.

imagine a big-breathe.. infinite big bangs.. where everything experiences every possible outcome .. over and over again.
each time.. to learn of itself once again.
at one end of the spectrum all consciousness reuniting.. all karma (cause and effect in thought) .. all karma being "equalized" .. balanced out eventually.. and all re-uniting...

then once it's all "one" in an act of complete compassion.. it explodes itself yet again to repeat the cycle.

becoming chaos..

then to bring order to that chaos..
uh oh .. thats a NWO slogan.. must be baaad right?

and then to explode into chaos.. (in the biggest orgasm in the universe I might add)


-

reply to post by CuriosityStrikes


You raise some very good points, but what I observe the need for a god in human belief is Not what I am thinking of....

The Word G O D originally did Not represent the god Humankind imagines it to be today...

I do believe that "Awareness" or "Consciousness" exists and is perhaps the Motivation behind what we experience, but this Universe may be only one experience of an innumerable range of others.

I think you will find purpose behind the universe, but unfortunately humankind has difficulty in understanding, because of the condition of his Genetic structure...

I think you will find it contains a "Double Logic" condition in it....

Consciousness I think would have been the first condition that produced the organisation and implementation of what we experience ???

But Consciousness is Not Intelligence!

Intelligence is the ability to be "Aware", "Organise" and Implement "Decisions".

What we experience seems to be Automatic in some respect, such as the interaction of DNA, yet Consciousness seems to be apart, from our bodily functions.

The Body is Not aware of your Conscious State or state of Awareness, but Your Conscious State, is Aware of your body to some degree.

I don't think anything can happen, ie the manifestation of something such as a universe unless "Awareness", "Motivation" and "Organisation" comes into play.

I do believe that All of Us are a part of that "Conscious State" along with anything else that is "Aware"...

I don't accept "The Big Bang Theory"....

First you need somewhere for this to take place whether Dimensional or non-dimensional along with "Motivation" and "Implementation", as both are required, or simply the event does Not take place, no matter how long we wait....

So I think we need to find out and understand how "Consciousness" or "Awareness" came into being or existence ???

Once this is in place, we can then come to understand the Concepts found by "Awareness" and how this awareness produced the Manifestation we call the Universe.

I do believe that we have the capability to both know and understand, but we have to establish a new way of approaching the Question.

Science has only been chasing its tail and Religion lacks the ability to investigate without a belief system of indoctrination.

We have to learn to see things as they are, and not establish a story that ignores some basic facts.

But it is difficult when trying to put a jigsaw together, if we don't have all the pieces or we have Not found them all.

I do Not believe the Answer is in Religion, nor in the way we approach Science today....

We need to find another way to approach the question...

First we Need to know more about ourselves, and more to the point accept what we find of ourselves.

Know ourselves as we are, not as we want to see ourselves!

We have to put aside fear, including any other negative thoughts and feelings, discovering more about ourselves....

Leave out established theory and Religion and re-approach the Question in a completely new and fresh Light...

So often as you know, I have found references in religious material and Ancient writings that are taken to be religious, which in fact were not intended to be religious, in the first place regarding the processing system, but at the end of the day, is only my interpretation or understanding.

Yes we can Interface with a Part, of what has produced everything but I have more questions now than I have ever before.

I believe the exploring of these interfaces with or through the Soul is a start but it will take perhaps thousands of years, to explore even just a part of what we are actually a part of... LOL..



[edit on 16-2-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]

where did the material for the big bang come from?

What is matter anyways? Doesn't quantum theory kind of suggest that it's all just waves? Matter is really built out of vibrations instead of some actual "matter". So the material really didn't come from anywhere because there is no material. There really is no spoon

The physical form of things is just an illusion, albeit quite a convincing one.

[edit on 7-3-2009 by iWork4NWO]

reply to post by Pilgrum


Or the Big Bang is a flawed theory from flawed creatures that refuse to admit their flaws. Dark Energy has always struck me as a reworked aether theory.

According to todays knowledge and und understanding this thread will be like walking on a spinning wheel. If it will not feel as such its diameter will just be too big to perceive this statemenet.

Peace ! (i will be around.)