Proof of chemtrails?

Hi Srsen,

Thanks for the article, nice read.

Hi Neformore, Thanks for your reply. To date you, Essan and Defcon5 have provided only evidence that contrails exist, which everyone already knows. You have also provided evidence that not all contrails are chemtrails (which most of us already know). What you have not done is go into any details or acknowledge any aspect of this thread where support or proof of the existence for chemtrails is shown.

For this reason may I please ask the three of you to dispute and contradict any and all of the following below:

1) There are patents for aerial chemical spraying

2) A US bill has passed through congress concerning chemtrails

3) A nobel laureate received a nobel prize for his research into global climat control using aerosol spraying of aluminium particles

4) In europe some governments have brought the question of spraying up in their houses of parliament, not as to whether they exist, but whether there should be continued spraying above their borders.

If you are so adament that chemtrails do not exist, you should be able to, with a clean conscience, tell me that the above are not true.

I very much appreciate your arguments made, the elaborate explanations (in which you have been able to clarify some of the myths concerning contrails) are strong and cover a disputed area of the chemtrail discussion, but there has been no touching of areas where only chemtrails can explain what's really happening.

This makes your arguments (sorry to say) biased and incomplete, so instead of asking me why it is still not enough, perhaps you should ask yourselves why you think that covers all of it, and why you think other people would/should believe these bias and incomplete arguments.

I recall plenty of governments denying the existence of UFO's for decades, and suddenly there is disclosure (even by your govt Neformore). Without wanting to stray into another topic, the type of arguments used all these decades to explain away the phenomenom of UFO's is the same as being used by you, one-sided, not open to speculation, covering only topics that can be explained in a myriad of manners, yet disregarding areas that cannot be explained away (it is always funny to see which part of someone's post you reply to, and which parts you choose to ignore). This says something very clearly, I just wish you yourselves could see the transparency of it.

Looking forward to your replies....

Originally posted by Nextstep
You have also provided evidence that not all contrails are chemtrails (which most of us already know). What you have not done is go into any details or acknowledge any aspect of this thread where support or proof of the existence for chemtrails is shown.

I have seen no evidence to support or prove the existence of chemtrails. What I have seen is alot of junk science on websites and people claiming photo's show things that they don't. The burden of proof here isn't on the people disputing the argument as far as I see it, its on those making the claims that its happening.

For this reason may I please ask the three of you to dispute and contradict any and all of the following below:

1) There are patents for aerial chemical spraying

Of course there are. Otherwise there would be no crop dusting, and the US military wouldn't have been able to spray all that nasty Agent Orange (now that was true chem spraying) in Vietnam. Just because there are patents for things doesn't prove that they are being used exclusively for this, does it?

2) A US bill has passed through congress concerning chemtrails

You are referring to H.R. 2977 which was introduced to the House in 2001, and can be found here;

HR 2977

And says

To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons.

And while it does allude to chemtrails here (at least in its first draft, it was re-written);

Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--

(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;

(ii) chemtrails;

(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;

(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;

(v) laser weapons systems;

(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and

(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.

However the inclusion here is not an admittance, except in the eyes of people who wish to see it as one. It doesn't prove anything per se. It hints at a possibility that the writer of the bill has chosen to explore - along with many other exotic weapon systems - along with a whole slew of other exotic weapon systems. These sections were written out in the later bill. Maybe the originator was misguided?

3) A nobel laureate received a nobel prize for his research into global climat control using aerosol spraying of aluminium particles

And? Again that proves nothing really. Just because someone recieves a prize for their research doesn't mean that its being implemented. It may be considered, it may be adapted, but it doesn't mean that its actively implemented.

4) In europe some governments have brought the question of spraying up in their houses of parliament, not as to whether they exist, but whether there should be continued spraying above their borders.

I need some links on this please? Preferably from unbiased and independant news sources. Maybe you could link us to the Parliamentary archives of those countries showing where they were discussed?

If you are so adament that chemtrails do not exist, you should be able to, with a clean conscience, tell me that the above are not true.

I can tell you with a clear conscience on my part that I do not believe there is an active programme to systematically spray chemicals into the atmosphere, based on the issues of dispersal and operational capability.
I am aware of the existence of cloud seeding technology, and I am aware that technology exists to implement such things.

I very much appreciate your arguments made, the elaborate explanations (in which you have been able to clarify some of the myths concerning contrails) are strong and cover a disputed area of the chemtrail discussion, but there has been no touching of areas where only chemtrails can explain what's really happening.

Which is what, exactly? Time to stand up and bat here. You've been very good at taking the points we've made and dismissing them. Lets see some real, hard, substantial proof then.

This makes your arguments (sorry to say) biased and incomplete, so instead of asking me why it is still not enough, perhaps you should ask yourselves why you think that covers all of it, and why you think other people would/should believe these bias and incomplete arguments.

As I stated above, lets see the proof. You condem us as having bias and incomplete arguments and yet when Defcon produced a string of photos of earlier persistant contrails you dismissed all but two of them offhand. Why should we believe your argument?

And while we're at it, lets have a list of your qualifications in the field, as you deemed fit to ask for mine but then decided to dismiss them.

I recall plenty of governments denying the existence of UFO's for decades, and suddenly there is disclosure (even by your govt Neformore).

Disclosure? Where? I see files of sightings being released but not disclosure. Show me where the MOD has openly accepted the existence of UFO's as extra-terrestrial craft because I follow the subject very carefully indeed and I must have been asleep and missed that. Not only that but my friends at NICAP must be asleep as well

Without wanting to stray into another topic, the type of arguments used all these decades to explain away the phenomenom of UFO's is the same as being used by you, one-sided, not open to speculation, covering only topics that can be explained in a myriad of manners, yet disregarding areas that cannot be explained away (it is always funny to see which part of someone's post you reply to, and which parts you choose to ignore). This says something very clearly, I just wish you yourselves could see the transparency of it.

I can see the transparency of your style here. You aren't providing the rest of us with any substance, and instead choose to dismiss the counter arguments because they don't suit what you think. So lets have some proof from your side. Good solid proof. Not speculation. Not people looking up and seeing contrails and saying "that must be....". Not people putting up pictures of planes without actually knowing what they are or what they are used for.

Originally posted by Nextstep

1) There are patents for aerial chemical spraying

Yes. For cloud seeding. We know that happens. Cloud seeding does not and can not produce the phenomena known as 'chemtrails'. Likewise, crop dusting and various other forms of aerial spraying - all of which takes place at low altitude.

2) A US bill has passed through congress concerning chemtrails

I assume you're referring to House Bill HR 2977 - Space Preservation Act of 2001, introduced by Congressman Dennis Kucinich? This was not passed. Kucinich tried to get a similar bill passed again in 2002, 2003 and 2005 - these were not passed either even though these versions dropped all mention of such things as chemtrails, psychotronic, plasma or tectonic weapons.

3) A nobel laureate received a nobel prize for his research into global climat control using aerosol spraying of aluminium particles

Can you tell me who he was so I can check it out? There has been an idea put forward along those lines to combat global warming but - like seeding the oceans with huge quantities of iron filings - no attempt has been made to carry it out (it's be a massive undertaking) and I'm unaware of anyone winning a nobel prize for such an idea!

4) In europe some governments have brought the question of spraying up in their houses of parliament, not as to whether they exist, but whether there should be continued spraying above their borders.

Which govts and when? Again I would need more details to check this out. However, my guess is that this refers to cloud seeding - a process also known as weather modification and often misunderstood/misinterpreted by chemtrail disinformationists.

If you are so adament that chemtrails do not exist, you should be able to, with a clean conscience, tell me that the above are not true.

So far as I'm aware they are either not true or else are wholly unrelated to the issue of chemtrails - by which I mean the high level 'clouds' apparently laid deliberately by high flying aircraft.

It seems to me that back when that bill was first created, Congressman Dennis Kucinich of Ohio, was made to look like quite a fool over the Chemtrail remark in the bill. So much so, that I recall him explaining that it was added because it was a concern of his constituents. He had it removed in the bills which followed that first draft.

So basically, just because these things show up in a bill, does not mean they are real. I could just as easily start an internet hoax that the Keebler Elves are breaking into folks houses at night and eating all their cookies, and if I can get enough folks to believe it and write their congressman, I can get the Keebler Act added to some bill that is being passed through. Congressmen are human after all, and they also can be taken in by a hoax on a topic they don’t really understand. Which is what makes the Chemtrail Hoax work so well, as folks generally don’t understand much about aviation.

So how can I be so certain that Chemtrails don’t exist? Well its for a number of reasons, which involve the fact that I do have a pretty good grasp of the aviation field.

First off, understanding the vast amount of infrastructure involved in the processing, distribution, storage, and delivery of AV-Gas, shows how many folks would have to be employed in such an operation involving that quantity of chemicals. It’s a huge process with thousands involved in just one state, now consider that you all think this is going on all over the world.

Secondly is the fact that I have personally been involved in that process twice in my life, once in the early 90’s (pre-Chemtrail hoax), and once after in the 2000’s (pro-Chemtrail hoax). During this time, nothing had changed in the process, weight, density, or procedures for the fluids that are placed on commercial aircraft. No additional fluids where being added to aircraft either, and no dumping equipment was added to those aircraft.

Thirdly, I have observed persistent contrails, coming from aircraft, which I personally worked on during both of those time periods, and I know for a fact there was no chemicals involved in the formation of those contrails.

Fourthly, I know that military aircraft are not in the process of wandering all around US controlled airspace spraying stuff, as the civilian and commercial pilots would have to be knowledgeable about this as well. It would create a flight hazard to visibility, and it would create a navigation hazard to the airspace. The flights would have to be operating under the control of ATC to not be a navigation hazard to commercial aircraft. If not then they operate in military restricted airspace, which has to be publicly acknowledged when it is going to be closed, so private pilots don’t wander into military testing or maneuvers. We are not even going to get into the fact that the US needs permission to fly over other countries airspace, and there is zero chance they are spraying anything over half the countries I see brought up.

Fifthly, I work for a pulmonologists now, and have yet to hear of any epidemics do to there being heavier then normal contrails in the area. Now if there is heavier traffic then that is a form of pollution, but there is no credible evidence to show any correlation between contrails and health. The only place that these contrail/health studies seem to show up is on Chemy sites, and my gut instinct is that they are making that up based on their own health. Considering that they get themselves worked up into a lather when they see a contrail, their illnesses are most likely psychosomatic. If there is any correlation at all to the increase of colds when there are more contrails out, it’s this:
When are contrails more likely to form at lower altitudes? When it’s colder out…
When are folks most likely to catch a cold? When it’s colder out…

Sixth and finally, because when there is real atmospheric release of any kind of chemicals, whether it be pesticides, cloud seeding, fertilizer, or fire chemical dumps, it does not look anything like what you folks call chemtrails. What you folks call chemtrails, looks like one of two things, A) Clouds, B) Atmospheric Ice.

[edit on 8/14/2007 by defcon5]

heh, you wanted answers NextStep, yo got em! and good ones too.

Anyway its late and i wanna sleep, but just quickly, my two cents - the fact that the tectonic, pyschotronic, chemtrail weapons were removed from HR 2977 is because they didnt want them there - they wanted to keep them hidden. Isn't that obvious??

I mean, do you guys REALLY buy every word the government says? Really, do you? or does it suit your beliefs so you buy it? I'll say it once again, you guys are obviously very smart folk who have fantastic text-book knowledge of the subject matter and also must understand the way the system really works, so why simply buy into the idea that those weapons were removed from the bill cause they didnt exist, or whatever petty excuse they gave? sorry, call me a nut, but i dont buy it. not for a second.

The fact that those weapons were mentioned in the bill at all, to me, takes them from the realm of conspiracy and into the world of reality. ITs as good as government confirmation - their petty little excuses as to why they were in there dont hold water - the cat was let out of the bag and they did everything in their power to stuff it right back in there - and people believed em.

ANd one final thing - then i'm off to bed, why do you guys think we would be able to provide proof of chemtrails? they are part of a likely program which is designed to be secret. how the heck are we ever supposed to find this proof? We certainly cant create it ourselves, we wont find it in text books and all the researchers who claim to have proof show their proof on 'chemy sites' so get instantly discredited anyway. we're just not going to find our proof in some text book like you guys can - honestly, what are we suppsoed to do? how could we ever prove anything?

Originally posted by srsen

heh, you wanted answers NextStep, yo got em!

and good ones too.

Anyway its late and i wanna sleep, but just quickly, my two cents - the fact that the tectonic, pyschotronic, chemtrail weapons were removed from HR 2977 is because they didnt want them there - they wanted to keep them hidden. Isn't that obvious??

No, its not. Applying the "super secret" argument, the original would never have made the House committe for evaluation would it? And wouldn't the guy have been stomped all over for writing it? You're suggest the congressman knows a damn site more than he's letting on.

I mean, do you guys REALLY buy every word the government says? Really, do you? or does it suit your beliefs so you buy it? I'll say it once again, you guys are obviously very smart folk who have fantastic text-book knowledge of the subject matter and also must understand the way the system really works, so why simply buy into the idea that those weapons were removed from the bill cause they didnt exist, or whatever petty excuse they gave? sorry, call me a nut, but i dont buy it. not for a second.

No. I don't believe everything the government says. And I DO understand how the system works, which is why this thing getting published means nothing. It would have been buried, totally and utterly.

ANd one final thing - then i'm off to bed, why do you guys think we would be able to provide proof of chemtrails? they are part of a likely program which is designed to be secret. how the heck are we ever supposed to find this proof? We certainly cant create it ourselves, we wont find it in text books and all the researchers who claim to have proof show their proof on 'chemy sites' so get instantly discredited anyway. we're just not going to find our proof in some text book like you guys can - honestly, what are we suppsoed to do? how could we ever prove anything?

Hmm. So, you are asking for proof that this doesn't exist, but it makes no difference at all what we say because at the end of the day you will say "secrecy" and totally dismiss the counter arguments put forward because they don't conform to what you think, and you'll keep looking up at the sky and seeing water vapour and thinking you are being poisoned.

If thats the case then the three of us that have been answering questions have just totally wasted our time and effort in doing so.

Hi Defcon5, Neformore, Essan and Srsen. Thank you all for your posts, I very much appreciate your passion regarding this subject. I hope to enlighten you all with some links, provisions, articles, information and research very shortly which may open some eyes (should they be willing).

It was important for me to get the replies from Defcon5, Essan and Neformore first. It may take a couple of weeks to gather everything, so I would respect your patience until then. I will answer your other questions then also.

To provide a little hint in the meantime and with reference to the below which was indeed used in the first draft of HR 2977:

Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--

(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;

(ii) chemtrails;

(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;

(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;

(v) laser weapons systems;

(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and

(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.


Are you all aware that abovementioned terms are pentagon categorized military terms for current research and development weapons and/or programs, including the term extraterrestrial weapons. This is where these terms come from, including chemtrails, and they are all active programs currently being tested and/or used. Note also that they separately mention climate, why will also become evident.

I am glad I have been asked to come to bat, especially when I hear things like people having health problems as a result of chemtrail spraying being supposedly psychosomatically caused. Comments like these show the belief that one can judge over another person (even when this person hasn't met the one being judged) and says something about the mental state of those judging, not the one with the health problems who is supposedly psychosomatic.

These types of comments are unwarranted, unrespectful and uncalled for, and I have to stick up for those affected by health problems as a result of chemtrails (which are not contrails). Why I am very fanatical about this issue I will leave for myself, as it is personal, but if you want to discuss this issue with me or anyone else, leave others out of it.

This aside though, I do appreciate your strong arguments, although we are still talking on different levels. Proof you will get, but perhaps I should ask first what you consider as being enough evidence to make you change your minds, or is this not an option?

Hi Neformore,

Seeing you are from the UK, I thought you might like this in the meantime:

www.guardian.co.uk...

Trying to find another link to the article I mentioned in a previous post about govt questions to EU headquarters. Haven't found the link yet, but have found a posting referring to it:

Dutch question chemtrails at European Parliament



On May 10th 2007, Erik Meijer of the Dutch Socialist Party (SP)

asked the European Parliament - on behalf of the citizen group

initiative named 'Stop chemtrails now' - about their awareness of

chemtrails.

The article is in dutch, so no use posting that link here, will keep searching.

Who was it that said that they were all over this subject and must have been asleep when this story emerged? I guess you were right


Maybe you just didn't want to see it, might be a psychosomatic issue...(just kidding, I really found that comment inappropriate)

Let's stick to gathering all the information before passing judgement...

Originally posted by neformore
Hmm. So, you are asking for proof that this doesn't exist, but it makes no difference at all what we say because at the end of the day you will say "secrecy" and totally dismiss the counter arguments put forward because they don't conform to what you think, and you'll keep looking up at the sky and seeing water vapour and thinking you are being poisoned.

If thats the case then the three of us that have been answering questions have just totally wasted our time and effort in doing so.

no no no Neformore, you misunderstood me

Honestly, i really have taken on board alot of what you guys have said, you've all educated me quite a lot of the subject and have certainly changed aspects of my chemtrail belief systems - and i thank you guys for that. We are here to den ignorace right? not deny obviously good info.

As i said in previous posts, i tend to think you guys have proved that contrails are MUCH more common then i originally thought, disproved some of the common chemtrail myths and debunked some of the prevously thought to be 'smoking gun' pics in regards to the aerial labs and so on.

But i DO still think that chemtrails exist on some level, thats all. I'm not totally convinced they are a hoax because i feel the videce pointing towards an at least limited spraying program is strong - even if that evidence isnt as solid as your text-book evidence.

Please don't think i'm one of those types who doesnt take in good info - i am certainly NOT that person.

Oh and i also think you misunderstood me in regards to me saying you guys know how the system works - i KNOW you all would, thats what i meant to say, didnt come out right.

Originally posted by neformore
No, its not. Applying the "super secret" argument, the original would never have made the House committe for evaluation would it? And wouldn't the guy have been stomped all over for writing it? You're suggest the congressman knows a damn site more than he's letting on.

I think the issue WAS silenced pretty quickly. Only people like ourselves ever saw the original, we dont really matter in their eyes. As long as the general public doesnt get onto it. THey wouldnt stomp all over the Congressman either because that would be a sign that what was removed was of great importance. At leats thats what i think anyway.

Originally posted by Nextstep
I am glad I have been asked to come to bat, especially when I hear things like people having health problems as a result of chemtrail spraying being supposedly psychosomatically caused. Comments like these show the belief that one can judge over another person (even when this person hasn't met the one being judged) and says something about the mental state of those judging, not the one with the health problems who is supposedly psychosomatic.

These types of comments are unwarranted, unrespectful and uncalled for, and I have to stick up for those affected by health problems as a result of chemtrails (which are not contrails).

Maybe you just didn't want to see it, might be a psychosomatic issue...(just kidding, I really found that comment inappropriate)

If you don’t think that your mind can affect you physical disposition then I have news for you. People can cause breathing issues strictly by getting themselves worked up, asthma attacks being a prime example. Psychological stress can most assuredly affect the parasympathetic nervous system and the effects are physical in manifestation.

This is not to mention the fact which I already brought up, that cold air effects both health and contrail formation. There are people who strictly have breathing issues in when its cold outside, and contrails are more apt to form when its cold outside. That is not to even mention the increase in Colds, Flu, and other maladies, which can be brought on by exposure to colder air.

I would ask my Doctors here if they have ever heard of any data on increases in illness related to CON/Chemtrails, but I would be afraid that I would be laughed out of a job, at the very least my credibility with them would suffer greatly.

Originally posted by Nextstep
Proof you will get, but perhaps I should ask first what you consider as being enough evidence to make you change your minds, or is this not an option?

I guess for me you would have to kill the brain cells which relate to my memories of working in aviation, as well as the brain cells which remember taking flight lessons, and of how the ATC system works. After that you might stand a chance of convincing me that this is occurring.

I recommend using something like this:



[edit on 8/14/2007 by defcon5]

Hi Defcon5,

Thanks for your reply, totally ignore my two links (you are so selective aren't you) and write some more derogatory statements. Seeing your mind is made up my posts will no longer be focused on answering your questions, I talk to reasonable open-minded people, not walls.

Psychosomatic symptoms are a result of mental processes due to the LACK of physical symptoms. It is the lack of physical symptoms that makes it psychosomatic. People who experience symptoms like migraines, skin irritations, breathing problems (not necessarily asthma) yet who are not aware of the existence of chemtrails can NOT be experiencing psychosomatic symptoms.

This is not even an issue of debate, it is medical fact.

I have much appreciated your findings, some are very persuasive and have helped me filter out the remaining area of unresolved issues, but your one-sided opinion, your unstudied references concerning other people, and your needless character deformation of people you have never met has provided insight regarding yourself.

Neformore, Essan, I will still continue posting for you, but let's keep it real. You don't hear me asking for irrefutable written proof under the eyes of a judge where a president admits to chemtrails exisitng. The public evidence (whichever sides they support) is thin at the least, and irrefutable proof for or against will be hard to find, like a needle in a haystack. Stopping your search halfway and concluding there is no needle speaks for itself.

We should support each other's arguments, be open to them (like srsen and myself have been to yours), but if this is not a two way street and all you want to do is show your side, without being receptive for any evidence of the other side, then we are wasting our time with you.

Originally posted by Nextstep
Thanks for your reply, totally ignore my two links (you are so selective aren't you) and write some more derogatory statements.

Hm, nothing derogatory about my statements, it’s a fact that I have worked on commercial aircraft and these sites are showing commercial aircraft leaving contrails and trying to say it’s the government. You would literally have to erase my memory to prove to me what I know for a fact. Reverse the rolls and try and see that from my point of view. Then calmly sit here and defend the job you worked at from constant attacks by folks basically accusing you making them sick, when its all a hoax to begin with. See how long your patience holds out.

As to your links, I only see one. That one refers to a project that was done over 30 years ago, same as the radiation tests, which were supposedly done in the US. I guarantee that whatever they dumped did not look anything like what you folks call chemtrails, and that it was on a limited scale. Heck it even says on there that they used ground based scatter sources as well, why aren’t you all out chasing your local bug spray truck driver around?

They don’t need to run those kind of tests over and over, that is like a one time deal. They track how a disease would spread, build a computer model based on it, and that is it. Either way your comparing apples to oranges here, you’re talking about something that could be done easily by one aircraft, not the same thing as these folks who claim we are clouding up the entire sky over every city everyday all around the world.

Originally posted by defcon5
They don’t need to run those kind of tests over and over, that is like a one time deal. They track how a disease would spread, build a computer model based on it, and that is it. Either way your comparing apples to oranges here, you’re talking about something that could be done easily by one aircraft, not the same thing as these folks who claim we are clouding up the entire sky over every city everyday all around the world.

BUt defcon what if the chemtrail operation is simply a more sustained and distilled version of the spraying operations NextStep linked up? I mean is that not even slightly possible?

Let me ask you guys this -

DO you think its at all possible that the chemtrail operation is so hidden and has been planned for so long (and is such a part of the big plan) that they have covered every conceivable angle; from weather to atmospherics to research planes and so on, so that when these types of conversations occur there will always be someone with a counter arguement? I mean, thats plausible deniabiluty in action right there isnt it?

Im not refuting what you guys have said in regards to contrails, but i just dont have enough evidence against contrails to say they are not occuring.

Originally posted by srsen
BUt defcon what if the chemtrail operation is simply a more sustained and distilled version of the spraying operations NextStep linked up? I mean is that not even slightly possible?

Chemtrails, by the definition of the “Chemtrail experts ”, are specifically barium and aluminum, which is added to the atmosphere strictly for the purpose of weather modification, and military electronic warfare. That is not the same thing as the biological testing that may have been done by various governments over time. It would not look the same as what folk consider chemtrails either, it would look more like the type of fog you see from a mosquito sprayer or form the “agent orange” photos above. It would certainly not be going on all over the country or the world as the Chemtrail sites claim it is. I mean look around this site, you’ll find members from all over the US, South Africa, Australia, and Europe making claims that they are being attacked by chemtrails on an almost daily basis. I am sorry to say, but no government needs that much influenza tracking data. For that matter this kind of testing would be more effectively distributed from a ground based source as it would reach surfaces to rest upon more rapidly. If you notice the article he linked above, it even states that two of the three test were run form ground based dispersion sources.

Originally posted by srsen
DO you think its at all possible that the chemtrail operation is so hidden and has been planned for so long (and is such a part of the big plan) that they have covered every conceivable angle

I just don’t see how it’s possible. There would have to be a place where this stuff was manufactured, a distribution network, storage facilities, and delivery methods that would involve hundreds of thousands of people and vehicles. They would have to have some way of preventing private pilots from wondering into the operation, and they would have to let everyone in ATC in on it to keep commercial flights away. That is an awful lot of additional work for something that can be more easily done a couple times at a very local level then made into extrapolated computer models.

No offence, but I just don’t see it happening realistically.

Originally posted by defcon5
Chemtrails, by the definition of the “Chemtrail experts

”, are specifically barium and aluminum, which is added to the atmosphere strictly for the purpose of weather modification, and military electronic warfare. That is not the same thing as the biological testing that may have been done by various governments over time. It would not look the same as what folk consider chemtrails either, it would look more like the type of fog you see from a mosquito sprayer or form the “agent orange” photos above. It would certainly not be going on all over the country or the world as the Chemtrail sites claim it is. I mean look around this site, you’ll find members from all over the US, South Africa, Australia, and Europe making claims that they are being attacked by chemtrails on an almost daily basis. I am sorry to say, but no government needs that much influenza tracking data. For that matter this kind of testing would be more effectively distributed from a ground based source as it would reach surfaces to rest upon more rapidly. If you notice the article he linked above, it even states that two of the three test were run form ground based dispersion sources.

no no , i didnt mean that chemtrails were exactly the same thing as explained in the link, but that they were an expansion on that type of program where instead of experiemental bacteria and influenza tests they would spray the chemtrail cocktail so to speak. and yeah i know about the methods of dispersal - plane, vehicle and boat - doesn't discount that they were spraying and continue to spray innocent civilians.

FOund an interesting article to read if you doubt that innocent civilians did and STILL DO get sprayed on - www.rense.com...

Originally posted by defcon5
I just don’t see how it’s possible. There would have to be a place where this stuff was manufactured, a distribution network, storage facilities, and delivery methods that would involve hundreds of thousands of people and vehicles. They would have to have some way of preventing private pilots from wondering into the operation, and they would have to let everyone in ATC in on it to keep commercial flights away. That is an awful lot of additional work for something that can be more easily done a couple times at a very local level then made into extrapolated computer models.

No offence, but I just don’t see it happening realistically.

Ok, so if chemtrail operation does occur then having storage facilities, a manufacturing line, high level security and compartmentalisation wouldnt be that much of a hassle i dont think. I'm sure those pilots who carry out the spraying dont REALLY know what they are spraying - prob told they are preventing global warming or something but asked not talk about it anyway. Once again, what is so far fetched about this?


just finally, an analysis of chemtrail material carried out by Clifford Carnicom (www.carnicom.com) found magnetic salts including barium, submicron fibers identical to the filaments found in Morgellons Disease, and aluminium. and thats just with one test.

Originally posted by srsen

Ok, so if chemtrail operation does occur then having storage facilities, a manufacturing line, high level security and compartmentalisation wouldnt be that much of a hassle i dont think. I'm sure those pilots who carry out the spraying dont REALLY know what they are spraying - prob told they are preventing global warming or something but asked not talk about it anyway. Once again, what is so far fetched about this?

The only way that such an operation could be carried out IMO is if something was added to jet fuels to cause the alleged chemtrails to form. Otherwise we're talking hundreds or even thousands of aircraft involved all over the world, many of which are flying alongside commercial airliners in busy flight lanes.

If the aim is climate control of some sort, then just spraying over a small bit of the USA today, and somewhere in Europe next Friday, isn't going to make much difference. We have to assume that most spraying operations are never even noticed. And when they are noticed, I'm sure it's not uncommon for spraying to be taking place in different parts of the world at the same time (although I wonder if anyone has ever done a proper study to check this?).

And don't forget all those ardent plane spotters out there - like those who rumbled the CIA's operations moving prisoners around Europe? They keep detailed logs of military aircraft flights. Why have they not noticed anything?

And then we have the problem of the fact that such 'chemtrails' are being mistaken by climate scientists for normal persistent contrails and actively investigated with regards their impact on climate change. I can't believe that something is being sprayed to reduce global warming and yet is being investigated as a cause of global warming .... Indeed, if any climate control is intended, then IMO it must be to cause warming.

On the other hand - suppose spraying of some nature was taking place? How better to hide it than to get everyone thinking that persistent contrails were signs of this spraying, knowing that others would come along and debunk this notion? The whole idea gets discredited. And meanwhile the real spraying takes place unobserved (I'd do it on overcast days, for example, when low cloud prevents anyone from seeing what is happening ) .......

I just want to chime in. I have seen these "chemtrails" a couple of times. The first time was around 3 years ago I was walking the dog one spring afternoon and I happend to notice to 2 military aircraft flying in staggered formation north to south. They were flying a little higher than commercial aircraft usually do through this area. Then the trailing aircraft proceeded to make a series of turns that turned out to be a figure eight.As it reached the turn around at each end of the "8" it started a a single vapour trail. It made the figure 8 3 times making six short vapour trails in the process. The trails were unusually white and fluffy. As the trailing plane did its dance the lead plane went into an orbit around the plane making figure 8's. After around 5-7 minutes of this they formed back up and flew off to the southeast, over the mountains.
The second time was in august of last year, i was working outside at my shop. It was a typical summer day around here, not a cloud in the sky anywhere. A flight of three kc135's flew in from the west, 2 planes in the lead and a third trailing about a mile or 2 behind. As they flew over the city the trailing plane began to produce a single puffy white vapour trail, that lasted prety much as long as it took to overfly the city then it turned off. All 3 planes then flew off to the south east over the mountains again.
A couple of things struck me,#1) in both cases the aircraft were multiple engined aicraft with engines on the wings, and yet they produced a SINGLE vapour trail from the tail. #2) In both instances none of the other planes produced any vapour trail what so ever.#3) both flights flew off to the south east. Whats the significance of the south east?, you maay ask. Nellis AFB is only about 120 miles to the south east of here.
There are many military air bases near where i live, and i have been watching a multitude of civilian and military aircraft for many years in the skies above. Ive seen plenty of B52's ,F16's,kc 135's, f18's, (f102's, f106's back in the day) we even had an sr 71 land here one time. I can tell the difference between a contrail and a chem trail especially when there are other aricraft in the sky at the same time. We have VERY low humidity here, about 20% or less on a good summer day. Consequently, on a day like today 100 deg & dry there is not a cloud in the sky none at all for as far as the eye can see. Contrails here tend to be very whispy and you can see them dissipate with the high alltitude winds while what i saw was a very thick puffy white cloud like formation that didnt blow away as much as it evaporated.
just my $.02 worth

I too used to live under an approach lane for o'hare. you would see them everyday.

But when I retired, I moved to the middle of nowhere. a small town, under 100k, farmers most.

Out here I see them almost daily, even though we have aren't in any paths. no army base, man I mean I am nowhere.

I got up this morning, i had 2 sets of 2 sorting criss-crossed and a plane flying over making the fifth.

I started looking after seeing posts. i never would of thought.

I guess they do mean to spray us all.

I am so sick of waking up every morning to see the sky full with chemtrails, i have picture after picture of how bad my area is, ive woken up with even U shaped trails, odd white planes flying above the clouds quickly depositing there load over my house and college, no body believes me around here and they think im crazy for thinking such a thing, ive been reading the forum for months and I just needed to talk to other people that aren't sheep. I believe I am actually being targeted with these trails as no matter where I go for some peace and solitude, even up on a hilltop for a bonfire at night, i easily see small planes flying above me and then notice wide trails right over my head. I just wish there was something we could do to protect our race from these Illuminati bastards, sure cloudbusters will work, but look at all the things that are being tampered with, water, food, medicines. I have completely shut myself off of any man made medications. No wonder why psychedelics are illegal, because people actually start thinking for themselves. If the goverment really thinks they can block out cosmic radiation then their crazy. The 2012 alignment will happen, our dna will be where it is supossed to, and this evil will be expelled from the planet. Its amazing what you can realize when youve begun to reach christ consciousness and can receive the collective unconsciousness from any piece of media you see.