Bush's Martial Law Plan Is So Shocking, Even Congress Can't See it

Originally posted by The Vagabond
...
I'd be very surprised if America went quietly in the event of suspended elections and other more tangible denials of constitutional rights.

Have to jump in here Vagabond, and say I, too, like they way you write.

Should the day ever come, I think I'd not mind finding my way to where you are. I took the same oath you did and are talking about. Might be good for my old blood to need to cover a six again.

Dang nice of you to say all that sigung. On the outside chance that anyone's ever crazy enough to do the unthinkable, I'll be bugging out of California towards Ehrenberg, Arizona if at all possible.
Find out where there's decent pizza, then go there and ask about a big bald guy who talks way too much and looks like he's been camping too long. They'll know exactly when to expect me- I'm a creature of habbit.

Vagabond,

...that's provided you're allowed outside and free to go get yourself a pizza

I wish i had your optimism.

Perhaps you've never been to Ehrenberg. 1300 4x4 owning, shotgun totin', desert rednecks who know every dirt road and backwater just ain't worth as much trouble as they'd cause.

Places like that you just ignore during a crackdown and control them economically once you've got the major urban centers under your thumb- when the people run out of groceries they'll behave just so that you'll let the trucks go into that area, or so that you'll unfreeze their bank accounts, or let off whatever brand of pressure you apply.

A place like that is the ideal spot to hide out between acts of resistance. But I'm getting too much into the tone of the survival forum, so I think I'll head that way now.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Perhaps you've never been to Ehrenberg. 1300 4x4 owning, shotgun totin', desert rednecks who know every dirt road and backwater just ain't worth as much trouble as they'd cause.

Vagabond touches on the one aspect of this discussion that is often ignored.
If the government actually initiates a state of martial law, who would enforce it?

The American populace is an armed populace. There are many places in the United States where there are active militias (i.e., the infamous Michigan Militia). These are paramilitary organizations that exist, train and operate under their interpretation of the constitution with the sole purpose of protecting their perceived rights under that constitution. I don't see these groups quietly laying down their arms and accepting martial law quietly.

Furthermore, there are many "pockets" or communities where enforcing martial law would be extremely difficult, to say the least.

Yes, the government would activate the National Guard, the State and Local Police agencies and, of course, the regular forces of the US Army, Air Force, Navy, etc. But how long would these organizations function before the members of these organizations and agencies stop to consider the reality of their actions? Would the members of these organizations -- the average GI, for instance -- function as unthinking automatons forever?

At some point, an armed populace and the members of the military would stop and consider their orders and actions in response to those orders. Their response could very well be a resounding "NO".

"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security."
Thomas Jefferson



[edit on 7/30/2007 by benevolent tyrant]

[qPerhaps you've never been to Ehrenberg. 1300 4x4 owning, shotgun totin', desert rednecks who know every dirt road and backwater just ain't worth as much trouble as they'd cause.

Vagabond touches on the one aspect of this discussion that is often ignored.
If the government actually initiates a state of martial law, who would enforce it?

"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security."
Thomas Jefferson
[edit on 7/30/2007 by benevolent tyrant]

Hi BT...

I think a lot of the folks who post negative, shiney stuff, must be city dwellers. "The City" is just too large a place for folks to get a feel for what is going on in the real world.

I, like Vagabond, live in a relatively rural area, am friends with many city, county, and state law enforcement and government types. I suspect, out here, if something "Federal Bad" bad came down, they'd have to get in here, in major force, in order to get any compliance. And that could be a fair tricky thing, fraught with some dire consequences.

And if worst case came to worstest, I know all the back ways to Arizona.

I also believe that many of the folks who are on here crying that the sky is falling, don't have a feel for the pulse of the American People. We are not perfect, and never claimed to be. We oftne don't like each other's politics, often, unbelievably, hold other skintones in low regard (we are human, after all)... We don't have answeres for all the illegal aliens, we still, even in this enllightened day and age, often have a hard time regarding female as equal to male... Hell, we can't even get together on what good government is, much less all get behind one or support another. But! I'll guarantee this. Something like martial law comes down, and there will be a very large segment of the population that will draw lines and dare them to be crossed. Kind of like the lone soldier, Airborne of course, during the WWII, Battle of the Bulge. He was on a point, by himself. The officer stopped and asked him what the Hell he thought he was doing. The war-weary soldier looked at him and said something to the effect, "This is the line and they ain't gettin' past here".

I supsect there are a number of lines drawn in this country, and like some of the others have said... I can't believe the military would fall into that position. They are brothers, sisters, Moms, Dads, human beings, and Americans.

I love that story sigung.

The legend has it that it was during the battle of the bulge that an American tank retreating from the German counter-attack came across a lone airborne trooper digging in a position for his bazooka.

He looked up at the tank commander and said, "If you're looking for somewhere safe to park that tank, you just pull in behind me. I'm 82nd airborne and this is as far as the bastards are going."

According to some versions this situation was repeated with every American unit that passed, until the young trooper's lone foxhole had become an important salient.

Whether true or not, the story makes a very good point: Guts are contageous among people who believe in the same things. I believe that initial acts of resistance would prompt many more to follow if the government crossed the line.


In fairness to those from urban centers, I think there's more to it than just lacking a sense of the American people.

Geography and lifestyle create very important psychological conditions.

In an area like mine, there's separation between the cities and A LOT of separation between our valley and the next appreciable centers of civilization. Google Earth the Eastern half of Riverside County- there's nothing but sand and ghost towns to my East.

That gives an illusory sense of independence and of separation from authority that will encourge resistance. It also creates a sense of community in the most remote areas which encourages the effect we were talking about with respect to the soldier in the battle of the bulge.

In an urban area, you're surrounded by so many people that there is no "us" and "them", thus not quite the same sense of community, and the sheer scale of everything creates a sense of a present authority.


If a person in my area wanted to keep an oppressive force from entering the city, the mental plan looks like this:
You talk to Shane or Tim or Brudvik- one fo the desert rats who is in construction, and they all are near the top so they can snake explosives for you. You get that and you wait till dark and downtown is closed, you take the alley between Miss Vera's hotel and Mr. Johnson's photo shop to the overpass, and voila, you've got that thing rigged to go, which will block the I-10 and the first exit into town, forcing them to double back to coachella, go through a rough city, then come up a two lane road through empty desert and into town, where they'll have to come all the way through the city to control key points of movement.

Notice the key factors- the businesses aren't faceless corporations, but small outfits run by people that I have connections to through various degrees of separation, and I can secure help from them. The city shuts down at night- there's a time for creeping around and making trouble. There are only so many ways to move around, and I can anticipate what needs to be done.

In a larger city, a lot of stuff is 24 hours, there isn't a time to move around secretly in every part of the city. There are many thoroughfares and you don't know where trouble will come from. You're less connected to people and businesses and have less access to help.

It doesn't seem hopeless in my area, but in a larger place it would.

We dont have to worry about our military. It's the foreign troops that are stationed here. All I know is I won't be on a blue or red train.

Remember RED is dead and BLUE is bled until dead...

Originally posted by sigung86

...
And what do you think "us people" should do. You say we should do something about it but you offer nothing except complaints about the people posting here. So you are here on this site just like us. What are you doing about it? The fact is there is nothing we the people can do about it. And the person who said that it is not the people who voted for bush's fault, I beg to differ. They should have done there homework on the bush clan.They voted for a C.I.A president and halliburton ( cheney) vice president. Here is something for all to read on our friend Cheney.
...

I believe I agree with the original poster that you have taken umbrage with. It is ok, I guess, to have an emotional ire that really requires no action. It's ok, I guess, to sit safely behind a keyboard and vomit forth vitriole, and pander to fear "And what do you think "us people" should do."

You know the answer... Y0u didn't even pose it as a question. The real question is, "Do you have enough balls to get out and do something other than rhale and whine about the governement"? I suspect, and it feels like you and others who post in the same vein want to be merely remembered for being "correct" and not "corrective". Kind of like Chicken Little.

Whose your senator, your congressman, your mayor, your county, city and state reps? If you feel as you claim to and aren't in constant communication with them, and trying to direct their efforts, then YOU are the problem... Not some lame duck yo-yo like the President. Not even Cheney! But YOU

I think that if the Founding Fathers had taken the same, lame, attitude that you have, that very little would have occurred that made the USA a reality. We'd all still be drinking tea, and eating Welsh Rarebits.

All the poster was saying was, make a decision to take an action and quit mentally masturbating in public. It does no one any good, and can be seen to be a bit pornographic, and just slightly disgusting.

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fixed quote


[edit on 29/7/07 by masqua]

Maybe you didn't understand what i was asking. So ill ask again. You said that us complainers should get up and do something about it. And i asked you, what do you think us complainers should do about it. You didn't have an answer. You tell me that i am the problem? I never voted for bush. I did my homework. What do you expect , For the people to take arms and go out and start a civil war? You ask me if i have the ball's to do something about it. Sure, but i am not on a suicide mission. What i am telling you is that the majority of people in this country have the power in who they vote for. I'm not part of that majority. So all i can do is try to find people who don't agree with how the united states is being run and hope that in time it will shift back. And i am also old enough to know that it will shift back the other way. It always does. I vote and thats all i can do. If you are suggesting that i should take this fight beyond voting, petitioning and protest than you have some serious issues. So back to what i was saying in my previous post, The people who voted for bush takes blame because that is the way this democracy works. And coming to this site and debating and discussing these things is part of that fight. So... What is it that you think should be done. Give me some insight on this instead of trying to turn what i am saying around on me and saying i am to blame, Try giving me some of your great wisdom. And i would agree that bush is a " yo- yo" as you put it but the fact is he does have power and if you would just go look at some of the things that he has done with his power then you would see the truth. And cheney Is even worse. So i will continue to follow the only way that is legal to fight these tyrants. And if you are suggesting any other means that are not legal, Then i don't want any part of that conspiracy. Back in the fifties if they wanted someone out of the way they would just label them as communist. Now days they just say that you are part of a conspiracy to commit terrorism. And that is more prison time than any other crime in this country. So simply answer my question or dont reply. You know, the question that you said i didn't ask.

I can't help but think back to the most recent Star Wars Trilogy, at how remarkably parallel the Emperor's rise to power and all of the other political structurings a bit more than vaguely resemble the thick political mire through which we trudge in this reality. Marshall Law?

On that note -- as I consider how all of the 'conspiracy' topics seem either directly or indirectly interwoven somehow (no, not doing links for this, just mho) -- could it be that "Attack of the Clones" may be real-world relevant? I've thought for years that no man or woman serving in the armed forces could carry out orders to imprision and/or kill their fellow citizens, or attack/demolish beloved structures and monuments...I mean, to just straight suicide your own country? Absurd.

But an army of genetically engineered drones couldn't care less regarding morality, freedom or anything else. Follow orders, period. Of course, MSM is telling us that the current scientific progress includes the cloning of cells, sheep, and the like. Is that the true extent of it, that we know just slightly less than they know? I think we know what they tell us. Don't we encounter headlines (at an alarmingly high rate for my comfort) that our Forces are near exhaustion due to the excess in Iraq, et al? If I know this, and you know this, can we safely conclude that those who would have the ways and means to enact such a thing as Marshall Law, also know this? Surely.

If the Anunaki can seriously be contemplated as having DNA-spliced themselves with pre-civilized "us" (and this teaching should be mulled over just as thoroughly as any other origin-of-man presentation of old, I think), then could not such a scenario be possible?

Peace.


[edit on 04/12/2007 by OptionToChoose]

[edit on 04/12/2007 by OptionToChoose]

...or maybe they won't use breathing combatants to destroy worlds at all. Maybe they'll just use a real hard-@$$ like this:
Wired robot

Originally posted by Horusnow
My God!

So many people, so many here on this forum are scared. And what are you doing about it? Complaining on this forum and cry out like a baby. Crying out that no one stands up and saves your once so beautiful country. Do you all need a new leader? What about yourself? Why not just stand up now and stop tollerating all that's happening around you. Why not just do it? Right NOW!

Don't just sit there in your 'safe' and comfortable chair behind your screen waiting for someone else to take your hand into a form of resistance. If you just wait and wait and wait...you know what will happen? You'll all perish. And there's only one to blame. You! Yes, that's right. And NO, this is not me lecturing you. This is just my view on all you people that keep complaining and complaining and complaining untill there's no tomorrow.

...

So, please. Start a sequence of solutions. A revolution if you wish. Just stop the nagging and complaining, please. This makes you all weak and time will tell you. We know about all of this now. Let's DO something now, right NOW!

Let's talk/write about this. Let's just do this. This will make us feel better, stronger and in the end happier and full of live. Like every person in the world should feel like in his life.

God I'm angry at you guys and believe me, I absolutely don't want to be.

If God created humans in his own image, we sure let him down (Voltaire 1694-1778)

I agree with you in spirit, but what is so bedeviling about this particular game board as it is set is that an attack against the government is not only futile, but effectively puts their plan forward faster. The real seat of power in this country is not the corrupt and and highly visible offices of government, but rather the financial institutions that supply us with paper "money" and electronic "credit." They are the true legislative and judicial branches. The executive branch is the extant corporate culturethat provides us with both the necessity to acquire and the opportunity to divest ourselves of these two essentially worthless commodities.*

The painful sutures of "money" and "credit" are so inextricably woven into the fabric of our daily lives that one of the most effective ways to destroy our "way of life" and our "freedoms" would be to attack the financial institutions that make up the Federal Reserve and the banking industry, along with the concommitant stock exchanges. But that is exactly what must be done in order to effect any real change in American society. Likewise, to successfully strike out at the executive branch, one must start with those closest to home...not at the mayors and the city councils. but at the CEOs and the CFOs of the corporations that provide us with our paychecks and , by extension, our credit cards and expense accounts.

In the years since the bankruptcy of the United States in 1933, we Americans have been fattened up, dumbed down, and convinced that that we are the lazy, stupid, worthless eaters that "they" have always seen us as. We have betrayed our own families and sent our sons and now even our daughters off to die on foreign soil, generation after generation. Our self-loathing, the stimulation of which is one of the most effective marketing tools known, is so complete that we know we don't deserve any more than "they" are willing to give us. We should be grateful, and, in a large part, we are. That's what "they" are counting on, and what we are giving them.

*In particular, the legal affectation that corporations are persons with rights and citizenship is the means used to create this state of affairs. This became possible after the adoption of the 14th ammendment.

I thoroughly enjoyed your post, without_prejudice. Even so, you paint a grim picture with those enlightening thoughts, calling to mind the age-old question which manages to subtly haunt mine every time I vainly ponder solutions: now that we know this, what do we do? Attack one's own paycheck or credit account?

Catch 22, it seems. What do you think, do viable solutions exist, or has fate herded us all into a corner to talk amongst ourselves until further notice . . .
Maybe we truly can't run from Revelation, as a pop song from the 80's once declared was so . . .

reply to post by OptionToChoose


You know, if I knew the answer to that simple question, I would be a rich, wise and happy man.

What I do know is that the entities that have constructed all this (and I have no doubt that this intricately woven web of seemingly unconnectable dots spanning hundreds of years of recent history is not a happenstance of coincidence, it is a construction) are real f*cking smart. They have created the utlimate Chinese finger trap, the penultimate Catch-22. They have us all by the balls. After lulling us with generations of high-tech creature comforts and "labor-saiing devices" that now require more man-hours of labor to acquire, maintain, and replace than to do the "chores" that they are saving us from, they are now using the information technologies to get in our face and challenge us to rise out of our protected, protracted adolescence and stand up to them. We know what is at stake--the lies that we tell we ourselves about how we, the American people, are are the smartest (despite the fact that our schools and universities are more mechanisms of social control than education), the sexiest (despite the fact that we are the most over-weight nation on earth), the most free (despte the fact that the government has instituted military tribunals to replace justice and has made treason against the constitution a requirement of public service), and the richest (despite the fact that at the orders of the Club of Rome in the late 1970s we have had a zero-growth economy for over 30 years noiw, shedding virtually all of our manufacturing capabilities to "developing" nations via government-subsidized loans and now publicly tout a career in a service industry like fast food as a viable economic option even though a salary of $60,000 a year for a family of 4 is a poverty level wage) poeple in the world, with access to the finest health care money can buy (when in reality, iatragenic incidences are the leading cause of death in America and our infant mortality rate is lower than some third world nations).

They have been telling us, sometimes subtly, sometimes defiantly, what they are going to do to us for decades. And we are # scared, or we are not being honest weith ourselves Like the bully who takes your lunch money every day on the playground, we know that all we have to do is stop pretending that we are not afraid of them, come to grips with the fact that we believe we are weak and ineffectual and unable to defend ourselves, and then CHANGE THAT FACT. We need to quit muttering to ourselves about how impossible it is that a conspiracy could exist and picking fighs with each other over whether the Republicans or the Democrats are the true protectors of all things American, whether 9-11 was an iniside job or Islamic fascists are the only true evil in the world that we alone have made safe for democracy, and start taking responsibility for our actions. So long as we allow them them to control the horizontal, and the vertical, then we are simply spectators in the twilight zone of our own lives.

What does that bully on the playground do when he takes your lunch money? He pushes us around, maybe plants a couple of unobtrusive bruises, sure, but he tells you what a pussy you are, how weak you are, how worthless and ineffective you are....he defines the rules of the game, and instructs you in your role in it. And then before he leaves, he threatens you again with more of the same. And tomorrow, when you go back, you see him there waiting for you, but you can't will yourself to do anything different than what you did yesterday. Because instead of changing what he told you so that you're not a pussy who can't fight, you avoided the unpleasant truths of the situation and let the status quo stand, just like he told you to. (to be continued...)

reply to post by without_prejudice


If instead of playing along and doing what we are told, we change ourselves from the ignorant, jaded, lazy patsies that they have made us into the people that we think we are, that we wish we were, then we could redefine the rules of the game ourselves and make something happen, instead of just reacting to the situations that they present to us. If all the lunch-money givers got together and followed that bully home from school one day and knocked the living # out of him, just once, then the whole playground dynamic changes.

Now that is an over-0simplified analogy, to be sure, but the principle still holds. The truth is that there is no such thing as a soveriegn government. Sovereignty lies iwth the People, and it is inherent in their nature as bestowed by their creator, and as such, it can be given, sold, or bartered away. As a government by the people, for the people, the government of the United States has but one function: to ensure that the rights of the sovereign are not diminished. It has no inherent rights or sovereignty of its own. It cannot dictate that we be slaves or even order us to fight in its illegal wars--that we choose to do, often for misguided reasons informed by widespread disinformation, but it is still our choice, and ultimately, no one else is responsible but each of us.

The only thing we can do is change the only person who is rightfully and completely under our control: ourselves. We can deny ignorance, but only after we define what our own ignorance is--not by emotionally reacting to what we perceive as the ignorance of others, which merely entrenches our own ignorance even more deeply. We need to take responisbility for ourselves regardless of the expoectation of reactions from those around us. And we need to understand what our true situation is.

All of us, every man woman and child in America, regardless of what possessions we have, or how much money we think we make, are bankrupt. Anyone who uses Federal Reserve Notes as "legal tender" owns nothing and has nothing but compliance with a contract that requires them, and thier children, and their children's children, to remain slaves to the false coporate masters who have eradicated real government from these United States and replaces it with what can only be described as organized crime. We are told from cradle to grave to be subservient to those who are our betters--our parents, our teachers, our bosses, our "elected" officials, to the police, to the military, to the government offices that are occuped by bad actors. Does that sound like the "land of the free and the home of the brave" to you? Yet if you look at the truth, all those individuals are supposed to be our servants, are supposed to enable us to become the good and just people that we want to believe that we are.

So yes, the answer is perhaps to attack our own paychecks. Because those little slips of paper that we believe enable us to be all that we can be are the biggest lie in the world of lies that we live in. It may very well be that the first step to regaining our self-respect and taking back the freedom that we have been swindled out of is to tank the US and world economies, because there is really no other way to break the death-grip of debt that the world bankers have on us.

What could they do, if all Americans called a general strike? If starting tomorrow, no one showed up at their "job" and refused to "pay" their rent, their mortgage, their car payments? And then, in the 30 to 90 days before we lost our electrical power, our internet connections, our phone service, and our homes, made an earnest effort to reeducate themselves about what life is supposed to be about, which is self-reliance tempered by compassion for one's fellows? Couldn't we consciously rebuild our economy by helping each other in that time?

My sincere aplogies to the OP for what I realise now is a blatant hijack of this thread. It was not my intention to do so.

A thread on this topic was started before this one:
DeFazio asks, but he's denied access

Figured I'd do some cross-thread linking.
In the aforementioned thread, I brought up some possibilities
why Rep. DeFazio could have been denied access to the plans:

DeFazio wants ’investigation’ into Vermont’s Simpsons win

SPRINGFIELD, Ore. - U.S. Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Springfield is still piqued that his hometown wasn’t chosen to host the premiere of the upcoming animated film "The Simpsons," particularly since "Simpsons" creator Matt Groening is an Oregon native.
...
"Unless they passed a law giving cows the right to vote, this smacks of election fraud," DeFazio writes, tongue planted firmly in cheek. "It also once again highlights the need for electronic voting with a valid paper trail. Was Diebold in any way involved in tabulating the results?..."

So DeFazio wrote a spoof letter to Alberto Gonzalez..
Maybe the former Attorney General couldn't take a joke?
I wouldn't doubt it.

Or maybe this had something to do with it:

DeFazio blocks mock military draft (June 28, 2007)

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. House today accepted legislation proposed by Rep. Peter DeFazio that would prohibit the Selective Service from conducting a mock draft.
...
"There's no scenario under which the Pentagon, the White House or this Congress, believes we're going to return to a draft," DeFazio said. "These funds would be wasted with this exercise."

I could see that rubbing the administration the wrong way,
perhaps a bit spiteful in their denial?

Anyways, I'm still with a few others here, I don't believe
Bushco has the ability to successfully pull off the whole
Martial Law takeover. I'm beginning to believe that the
next administration (Hillary) will take full advantage
of what the current administration has been setting up.

Of course, everything really hinges upon the next
terrorist attack on our soil, and how we respond.
Retired General Tommy Franks had some thoughts
which should be echoed in this thread:

NewsMax wrote: “In (Cigar Aficionado magazine’s) December edition, the former commander of the military’s Central Command warned that if terrorists succeeded in using a weapon of mass destruction (WMD) against the U.S. or one of our allies, it would likely have catastrophic consequences for our cherished republican form of government.”

Their lead-in paragraph was even starker: “Gen. Tommy Franks says that if the United States is hit with a weapon of mass destruction that inflicts large casualties, the Constitution will likely be discarded in favor of a military form of government.”

source and OLD thread (Nov. 21, 2003)

Plans for a military form of government?
That might be something to hide.

Here's a list of some of POTUS Bush's Executive Orders regarding martial law.

I'm pretty sure previous presidents during WWI and WWII considered similar actions. I would like to see an online resource for all executive orders ever written. I'm sure there would be some frightening stuff in them.

Neither George Bush or Dick Cheney is going to "seize control" of the country or try to appoint themselves Emperor, thats going a little bit overboard.
For one thing, it would be impossible to do without the support of the Military and I just dont think Bush is respected enough by the Military anymore.
Dont misunderstand me, I'm sure that he has the support of some elements of power in the military but not enough, it's possible that there would be a very divisive split in the Military Ranks that could possibly cause a mini rebellion in the DoD resulting in a temporary military coupe.
Hopefully the "victor" in this coupe would be in opposition of the Presidents attempted grab at a Dictatorship and would only last long enough to round up the criminals, (Bush and his supporters) and appoint a temporary civilian leader until an emergency election could be held.
SO, if the scenario worked out just like I described (Not Likely) then that could be the best thing for this country
I have an active imagination lol..

Well as for y'all that are still on the grid as it were, I feel for ya. Those of us that have plans to vanish from the radar screens when TSHTF are gonna be well off.

I have read so many different scenarios about how and when this event MIGHT take place the thought no longer scares me.

Listen Bush MIGHT declare martial law and stay in power for a extended period of time. Heck Bush might make his Crawford Texas ranch the new seat of power for the NWO but without much to go on I for one am just going to go with the flow. Do my job and get on with my pathetic pointless little existence.