A bit young for religion?

Melatonin, the LORD truly is amazing. I truly hope and pray that you come to know him. He'd show you things that'd make the wisest men you know become fools.

Wisesheep, with all respect, please do not preach in this topic.

Originally posted by Corum
Wisesheep, with all respect, please do not preach in this topic.

Religion and preaching don't go together? Religion IS preaching!!

I agree.

Wisesheep, while you have good intentions, this is not the place -- Much as how 'we' request Atheists stay on topic, and do not denounce Christianity.

Same idea, different method.

Edit: Boondock, you caught the statement, but not the sarcasm!

Point: Only in very extreme denominations do you 'do' the ol' 'Be good or the devil will get you' shtick. That's a bit of a .. what is the term .. stereotype.



[edit on 26-7-2007 by Iblis]

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Negative. What it says is things evolved from a common ancestor correct? What did the common ancestor evolve from?

You are still wrong. From the perspective of the ToE, this is not important. Abiogenesis focuses on the development of the first biological lifeform(s).

1. It could be that the omnipotent magic man from d-11 created the first repilcating living organism in his 'life-from-dirtinator (TM)' or maybe by 'think n' poofs'.

2. It could be that life arose from simpler chemicals through a non-directed chemical process that led to simple replicators from basic organic molecules.

3. Many other ideas (panspermia etc etc).

Science is working on the possibility of 2.

No it's a religion and had it ever been agnostic at one point, by now it would have found the stone the builders rejected and rebuilt itself on it.

You can keep saying that, but it still isn't true. ToE is a scientific theory, nothing more, nothing less. It explains one thing - the diversity of life on earth.

Religions claim to explain almost everything about the origin of existence and other related stuff, requiring adherence to a set of morals; a value system; strict, generally, static dogma; rituals, traditions, mystical experiences and private revelations; a dichotomy between sacred and profane. And, finally, faith - belief without evidence.

ToE simply states life evolved from a common ancestor by a process of descent with modification over geological timescales, via natural selection acting on genetic variations - supported by a wealth of evidence. That is all.

Now, I really don't want to keep p***ing Iblis off, so take it to the O&C subforum, and we can carry on.

[edit on 26-7-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
You are still wrong. From the perspective of the ToE, this is not important. Abiogenesis focuses on the development of the first biological lifeform(s).

Not important? For cryin out loud! If fruit comes from a tree, surely somebody who studies the fruit would find the tree's origin important and lump it up into the same study.

Originally posted by melatonin
1. It could be that the omnipotent magic man from d-11 created the first repilcating living organism in his 'life-from-dirtinator (TM)' or maybe by 'think n' poofs'.

The life-from-dirtinator would have a hard time because dirt in and of itself can do nothing. See that's why the life told the dirt one time "without me you can do nothing."

As far as the thinknpoof is concerned, well, oh boy, that's entertaining.

Originally posted by melatonin
2. It could be that life arose from simpler chemicals through a non-directed chemical process that led to simple replicators from basic organic molecules.

That makes for a glorious tale indeed.

Originally posted by melatonin
3. Many other ideas (panspermia etc etc).

Certainly minus the word that was spoken.

Originally posted by melatonin
You can keep saying that, but it still isn't true. ToE is a scientific theory, nothing more, nothing less. It explains one thing - the diversity of life on earth.

What makes it a religion is that key thing that is importantly not important, that couldn't possibly be separated from it.

Originally posted by melatonin
ToE simply states life evolved from a common ancestor

Which "simply" leads a child to believe at an early age, they are nothing. A soul-less thing, that originated from nothing and goes back to nothing.

That was the point of me opening this can of worms to begin with.

Originally posted by Iblis
Point: Only in very extreme denominations do you 'do' the ol' 'Be good or the devil will get you' shtick. That's a bit of a .. what is the term .. stereotype.

You are correct. I remember Sunday school and it wasn't all bad. I made some dear friends there that I actually keep in touch with today. I have nothing against religion. It's the fanatics that get to me. And it just seams today that there are more and more fanatics of some sort. Just my opinion.

I believe anyone trying to come closer with God/Goddess, the creator, whatever, isn't doing wrong. I would believe an all knowing God wouldn't sit there and judge you incorrect for trying to worship him. That's the problem I have with religion. They all think they are the only way. But, I'm straying off topic.

Originally posted by Iblis
Point: Only in very extreme denominations do you 'do' the ol' 'Be good or the devil will get you' shtick. That's a bit of a .. what is the term .. stereotype.[edit on 26-7-2007 by Iblis]

Okay, Iblis, I'll accept that but more commonly aren't we taught from an early age that if we don't believe (have faith) we won't go to heaven?

And can we agree that it's a lot harder to convince someone of an older age that there is a God?

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Not important? For cryin out loud! If fruit comes from a tree, surely somebody who studies the fruit would find the tree's origin important and lump it up into the same study.

Did I say it wasn't important?

Or did I say that it wasn't important from the persepctive of ToE?

There is a good reason why they are separate regions of science - one is biology, the other chemistry. And, as I keep trying to point out, ToE still works by being put in motion by a think n' poofter.

As far as the thinknpoof is concerned, well, oh boy, that's entertaining.

Well, if he/she didn't use the Acme dirtinator, I assume it was think n' poof. Glad you like the nomenclature

Or maybe he used hand-like things guided by poofless thinks.

That makes for a glorious tale indeed.

Not quite as glorious and fantastical as those which are based on books written by goatherders thousands of years ago. At least this 'tale' will be based on verifiable scientific evidence.

And we keep finding evidence of the raw materials required for abiogenesis:

Organic compound found in the stars
Life-building molecules might be spread throughout space.
Ewen Callaway

Astronomers have found the largest negatively charged molecule so far seen in interstellar space. The discovery, of an organic compound, suggests that the chemical building blocks of life may be more common in the Universe than had been previously thought.

www.nature.com...

Maybe the d-11 magic man put these molecules in space

What makes it a religion is that key thing that is importantly not important, that couldn't possibly be separated from it.

Errm, yeah, OK...

Which "simply" leads a child to believe at an early age, they are nothing. A soul-less thing, that originated from nothing and goes back to nothing.

I don't think the ToE speaks to the existence or non-existence of souls, sorry.

[edit on 26-7-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by Iblis
Because God knows people do not think for themselves.

Teaching someone something, especially in a setting so inexplicably boring as Sunday School is not brainwashing.

When you teach a child about brimestone and fire, you scare the hell out of them!!! Thats like taking your child to freddy kruger movies, and all the scary movies out there.
If you dont think sunday school is brainwash, you are brainwashed.

Picture a young child with no fears of this world, but is taught that if you do wrong you will suffer for your actions. Children simply need to be taught that your actions have reactions.
Not if you do something bad your going to hell!!! RAAAAA!!! SCARY!!!!


Its sad, and in my eyes those who brainwash their kids will feel just as guilty as my family does one day.. Like to talk to my mother and see how she feels about church now? Maybe someone else in my family who sent me to the devils playground when I was bit a young lad?

Surely I was gonna stop off with the last post but honestly this is just too interesting.

Originally posted by melatonin
Not quite as glorious and fantastical as those which are based on books written by goatherders thousands of years old.

I have to agree with you there, believe it or not.

What we have isn't based on a book. If so we would have nothing, but a stack of paper.

What we have is based on being spiritually reborn. That book just bears witness to he that is in us.

There are those who search the scriptures thinking that there is life in them. There is none. The same work so hard to try to climb in, rather than going through the door. Unless they go through the door, the door will never know them. The door will tell many that he never knew them.

OK, that's cool. I'm sure it all makes you feel really good.

Have fun with that.

Point: Others may been taught that. However, in my experience at three different Sunday Schools [Corporate Family], that was never among my teachings. We were taught how to be good, and the Bible, and what morals we can gleam from the stories within the Bible. There was no direction they were imposing on us, simply giving us moral guidance. [Which, at best, was, 'Don't hurt others, don't steal, etc.']

Point: Most older folk are Christian in some form, at-least in the United States, so, I am not quite sure how to answer that.

Point: Considering most children now-a-days are apathetic to concepts such as war, and are biologically incapable of much complex empathy, I doubt 'brimstone and fire' does much, especially after watching an episode of CSI.

Point: Calling me brainwashed because I do not believe in your unproven opinion only reinforces that you have a poor argument. Saying I do not comprehend the question rather than factually stating in a logical manner is denying your ability to argue cohesively.

Point: You're views of the Church seem set back in the middle-ages, and up to the 1800's. Now-a-days, children of any significant age are not frightened by scary boogey-men. Especially since, contrary to your beliefs, that is not what Sunday School of all places, teaches.

Point: 'Devil's Playground'? You seem to have a rather immature view of the spiritual world. This is not an point of contention, merely an observation.

For those who haven't seen it, check out the documentary "Jesus Camp". It will give you a good idea of what happens when the mega-churches get a hold of young children and how these children are exploited for their agenda. It is the epitome of brainwashing.

It is a contradiction, too. The idea behind Christianity is supposed to be free will, that everyone has a choice whether to accept Jesus or not. However, their young minds are so primed for absorbing whatever they are told, and these children are being brought up knowing one thing. They are not even capable of realizing that they have options. So, where's the choice in that?

edit: grammar

[edit on 27-7-2007 by evilod]

Originally posted by Iblis
Point: Considering most children now-a-days are apathetic to concepts such as war, and are biologically incapable of much complex empathy, I doubt 'brimstone and fire' does much, especially after watching an episode of CSI.

Point: Calling me brainwashed because I do not believe in your unproven opinion only reinforces that you have a poor argument. Saying I do not comprehend the question rather than factually stating in a logical manner is denying your ability to argue cohesively.

Point: You're views of the Church seem set back in the middle-ages, and up to the 1800's. Now-a-days, children of any significant age are not frightened by scary boogey-men. Especially since, contrary to your beliefs, that is not what Sunday School of all places, teaches.

Point: 'Devil's Playground'? You seem to have a rather immature view of the spiritual world. This is not an point of contention, merely an observation.

Okay newbie, if you go threw many of my posts Ive made a clear case to my point, you just havent read threw it clearly.
I dont have a poor argument, infact I was given 500 point bonus with that I have said in these threads.. You where the one who said the brainwash, I simply turned it around on you.
And you say when I say devils playground that its immature view?
Hardly, Ive said it before on here, and I hate to have to keep putting this in your face, but I was molested by a preist, hence the devils playground.

"Saying I do not comprehend the question rather than factually stating in a logical manner is denying your ability to argue cohesively."

I didnt say you didnt comprehend the question, rather you have no idea what I went threw, and why I have disdain for the church.

I have nothing aginst God, but those who run it.. How many times must I say that? And how they can manipulate children.. You twist my words to suit your own ego.. Talking with you Im sure wont get us anywhere, its just going back and forth. And you will try to boost your ego, becasue you think somehow I am telling it how it is. Nope I welcome all thoughts, you went on the claim that sunday school isnt brainwashing, well to me it is. Simple..



Edit: And just to add to make myself clear, I dont think all churches are like this. You just have to becareful where you leave your children, and dont trust anyone alone with them in a church! Becasue then yes, you can be to young for religon and some of them exploit that fact that they are young.


[edit on 013131p://1019 by zysin5]

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Atheism does not equal religion. It only is a religion in the minds of people who don't know any better.

A religion is a set of beliefs and/or practices which are shared by a group of people. Using this definition, we can classify atheism as a religion since all atheists share the common belief of the non-existence of God.

Personally, I find atheism to be just as dogmatic as any other religion, since it seems to me that it takes just as much faith to believe that there is no God, than to believe in one.

I never had religion pushed on me. My parents only spoke of heaven, and that one day I would see them when I died, if they too were already dead ofcourse. Jesus means nothing to me, even if he was the son of god, he is not god, and the ten commandments only wan't me to worship "GOD". I worship no one, I do however follow the ten commandments...why? Those rules are common sense to anyone that doesn't secretly torture animals or touch little children(catholic priests). Religion should be abolished from modern society. Deism is the way to go people...which I guess kind of is a religion of sorts...but based on human morality, not conversion of other religions.

Had to edit this, as it apears I am attempting conversion simply by stating that Deism is the way to go. Don't listen to me, I am an idiot. Do what you feel is right, and follow no one else.

[edit on 27-7-2007 by saintnuke]

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
A religion is a set of beliefs and/or practices which are shared by a group of people. Using this definition, we can classify atheism as a religion since all atheists share the common belief of the non-existence of God.

And therefore people who share any belief can be considered part of a religion.

Bit of a naff definition.

I'm going to put my cards on the table firmly here, and see where it goes.

I'm not religious at all.

I see religion as dangerous. It limits people. It provides an easy explanation - a kop out if you will.

For instance, I own a kettle. I know that the passing of a voltage through the element causes excitation in the molecules that make it, and that this excitation creates excess energy which is bled off in terms of heat and light. The element glows red, and the heat is passed into the water, eventually exciting the molecules in the water to produce their own heat which in turn, as the process continues, causes the kettle to boil.

I know how the electricity is generated. I even know, roughly, how the electricity is formed in the transfer of positive and negative electrons. If need be and with a bit of time I could follow schematics and build a heating element, harness the wind to provide electricity and produce my own element.

Or I could denounce science as heresy say "God makes the water boil, its a miracle" and then wonder where the hot water for my next cup of coffee was coming from, and why God isn't heating up the rainwater I just collected in my cup to boiling point, even though I prayed for it to happen within the next three minutes.

Now I realise the religious amongst us will either describe that as an over simplistic argument, or tell me that God provided humans with the intelligence to figure it all out for themselves, and thats fine, up until I ask for proof of God.

Proof of God is another thing altogether. When I ask for that I'll probably be pointed to a 2000 year old book that tells me some stories initially. Well I'm sorry but its a book, and Jeffrey Archer writes those as well. I don't address every aspect of my life by "First Amongst Equals" and therefore I'm not likely to address it on a book that - although it puts across some good ideas about being nice to each other (except in the first part which says we can do gory horrible things to each other) - may well have been written by the Roman equivalent of our Jeffrey. If I wanted to live my life by a book then "Its a Wonderful World" seems like a much better alternative to all that crucifixtion stuff.

So, take the Bible/Koran/Talmud etc out of the equation and you're left with that wonderful word "belief". You need "belief" for God.

So if I believe I am Superman, and can fly, then thats fine and I will be able to, right? I think the answer to that might become obvious if I decided to test it by jumping off a tall building and become a stain on the floor - but wait - I had "belief".

So then maybe belief isn't all. I have to have faith. Theres a subtle difference I guess. Belief is something I think may be true. Faith is belief in religious doctorine. OK, so I have faith. I believe I am Superman and I have faith that God will help me to fly, and someone please call the emergency services because theres a mess to be cleaned up at the base of this building.

Alright, so, "God" doesn't have time to look after one individual pretending to be Superman. But why not? He/she/it is omnipotent and all seeing right? If this divine and wonderful super being can't manage everything and everyone its created then ...well....its not "divine" really, is it?

And if he/she/it is happy with all the wars and disease and pestilence going on then they must have a bit of a nasty edge to them huh? Whats that all about? And surely its easier to just remove something from existence rather than rain down misery on people. What purpose does that serve? When you're gone - and God doesn't want you back because you've made a right old balls up of things - then no doubt God can easily replace you.

And, all this "I know him" stuff....and "Jesus is my friend and he helps me out" - well if I said I know Harvey the Rabbit and I know him and he's my friend and helps me out" I'd probably be shunned by society (the same one that accepts belief in the divine, mind) and put on medication or sent to the funny farm to bounce off some rubber walls.

But...heres the kicker.

I might be wrong about all of this.

But how many religious people can say that about their belief?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Using this definition, we can classify atheism as a religion since all atheists share the common belief of the non-existence of God.

sure, but that is not the definition of religion....

www.dictionary.com

look it up...use the definition.

atheism is NOT a religion, even if you really really feel like it is....sorry, try again

Originally posted by Corum Wouldn't it be fairer to let our kids reach at least say...10yrs old before they're taught the bible e.t.c? At this age (10) at least they can think for themselves more and it would be giving them a choice as to whether to believe or not.

Yeah great idea...don't do anything to instill the moral concepts of truth, compassion, respect, fairness, forgiveness, right and wrong, until a child is 10.

That rotten bible....sheesh!