A bit young for religion?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Few people here are probably even aware of what the original schools did... There were bible lessons in the old schools..

Should there be now? Well, I tell you what, take a good look at society and you tell me.

times change. just casue they tought religious stuff in ps school 37 90 years ago does not mean it belongs in a science class in public schools.


as far as society. i blame religion on that one.
that, and the wants that 'money' brought to the human animal.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
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My ex knows how I feel about this, and so he's started talking to my daughter about heaven and getting her DVDs with religious messages on them even though he's a lapsed Catholic and hasn't set foot in a church or prayed the entire 11 years I've known him. He's abusing my kid to get to me, using religion to do it.

Kids shouldn't be exposed to it until they're older. My two cents.

i am going through the same thing. my son is 10 and he lives with his mother. i get him evenings, weekends etc.
according to her wished cause she calls the shots, he goes to a catholic school and i HATE it. we have went round and round about this and she is mad cause i won't help her pay for it.
i do not talk to him about it here in my house but i don't dog it out either. when he is here, we just talk. i ask him questions and things...see how he thinks, where he is coming from and such.

his mom is one of those smokescreen catholics. we were together for 5 years and in that time she never went to church or picked up the good book one time. as soon as our boy is school age though, he needs 'religious teaching'...he has a religious class every day and mass a couple times a week. there are crosses and crucifixes all over the place in the school. disturbing really.

it's funny cause when lent rolls around, his mom makes him give up something...does she give anything up? nope.
she cuses worse than a sailor and has been living out of wedlock with a guy 15 years her senior for more than a year now.

it really, really bothers me cause i don't want him brainwashed.

he does not seem to be really taking it all in. i ask him if he likes and and such but basically he likes it cause all his friends and such are there.

up untill last year the only time i went to church was for the fathers day mass at the school cause i didn't want him to be the only kid there with no dad. we talked though and i have since told him that i do not believe in what they teach and i won' be going to the mass anymore.

oh yeah, last year, the principle of the school was brought up on charges cause he had lined up a bunch of 4th grade students, took their shoes off and was kissing their feet.

i feel you major. it's hard when you really don't have a say so.

Originally posted by jbondo

Isn't it funny how Atheists have this overwhelming preoccupation with Christians and proving something to us or telling us how stupid we are or calling us abusive for raising our children with a sense of love, spirituality and morality?

I raise my kids to be loving and moral without god.

Spiritual abuse is a recognized phenomenon:

Dr. Charles Whitfield, in Healing the Child Within, defines one aspect of spiritual abuse as teaching children to believe in a wrathful, punishing deity and scaring them into perpetual allegiance to a particular religious organization (page 37). Take Christianity for example. Any denomination of Christianity could be accused of this to some degree, but the fundamental, radical ones (those which teach the whole Bible is the inspired word of God and must be taken literally for the most part) do the greatest damage by far. Let's look at the problem more closely.

Many children, especially those from dysfunctional homes, already have an exaggerated fear of life because they are not being loved and nurtured effectively. They have low self-esteem, and because they lack good problem solving skills, low self-confidence as well. They long for utopia where all is love and problems don't exist. Therefore, they are susceptible to rigid, religious organizations that offer all the answers to life's problems in exchange for "love", protection, and guidance. If they enter one of these churches, they are taught that an invisible God rewards good and punishes evil and are encouraged to "be good" according to the ideas of that particular denomination. They're also threatened with punishment in this life or the next if they fail to understand God's will and obey it. On top of this, they are discouraged from looking outside the confines of this one group for answers about God or life, though they soon learn that many of the things they are being taught are destructive. In other words, they are trapped, just as surely as a child who has been sexually abused and is threatened with the abuser's withdrawal of "love" or worse, punishment if they tell.

home.earthlink.net...

I want my kids free of dogma. Because my ex knows this and is forcing it into my daughter's head in an effort to separate her from me (this is not his only tactic, he also tells her I'm dying, I'm a liar, I am crazy, etc.) I consider it abuse.

Children don't know about god. The churches say to get them young and raise them up right in the way of the lord.

If their dogma could stand the light of rational scrutiny, they wouldn't have to entrap small children when they are prone to magical thinking in order to make their dogma stick.

Therefore, exposing children to religious teachings before the age of reason at about ages 7 to 9 IN MY OPINION is abuse.

I was taught RE at school (partly because I think it's mandatory for schools to do it), although I don't really see that it made any difference to my life or any of my friends. Of course you always get one or two lads who really get into the thing, but hey, such is life.

I don't see why it's a problem. Does it make any difference whatsoever to the majority of children? I don't think it does. If a few end up with some religious faith as a result, does it matter to the rest of us? Not really. If it's made life better for those who've developed (whatever) faith then good for them.

Surely deciding what your child should not be taught is censorship, limiting their breadth of knowledge and therefore limiting their options for decisionmaking.

Probably up to a hundred years ago people were preached at and being frightened by hell from the moment they were born! So 3 probably isn't that young.

Originally posted by DenyAllKnowledge


Surely deciding what your child should not be taught is censorship, limiting their breadth of knowledge and therefore limiting their options for decisionmaking.
.

yes it is...but, as a parent that is our job. i don't need the gov or anyone else to decide what my child sees and when...that is my job/
at 8 years old, they don't need to be tought about every damn thing under the sun.
i wouldn't watch a religious documentary with him just like i wouldn't watch porn with him....it is my job to censor or not what he sees.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Every parent must make the decision about how much religious instruction their children are to receive and when, though I do think if I were not taught religiously until I was 10, I think I would have been a wild child for that first decade!

[edit on 19-7-2007 by uberarcanist]

So you are saying that religion is a must, or else you would've been a stereotype Dennis the menace? Well, i think it's kind of logical that with or without religion, propper manners should exist anyways.

I'm saying, you can raise your children perfectly without the idea of a creator god hanging around in the clouds.

Respect, friendship, understanding and helping eachother should be a standard way of living that does not require a book or faith to survive, or is that an illusion that has settled in slowly?

Personally, i dont think young vulnerable children without power to form decisions on their own, should be exposed to ideas that has not be accepted as a truth, just a faith. If they want a faith, they will look for the reason of living by themselves... It's a question on everybody's mind, but this mind shouldnt be occupied by things already (Religiously raised) when the right time arives to fully make a right conclusion out of it yourself.

Its hard to accept another truth or way of living if there was only one truth there for you from day 1... Just think about it, Matrix anyone?

[edit on 20-7-2007 by Mammoth]

Originally posted by DenyAllKnowledge

If a few end up with some religious faith as a result, does it matter to the rest of us? Not really.

It does to me. Brainwashing is brainwashing and I don't approve of it.

Let me ask you something, if we were discussing any other religion than Christianity, would you be defending it?

Are the boys that go to Islamic madrasas, spending the day memorizing the Koran while nodding back and forth hypnotically OK with you? Especially when they turn out suicide bombers and other fundamentalist extremists?

Would it be OK for a child to be inducted into a Hare Krishna sect at age three ad go begging in the streets in their little saffron robe, and bothering people at the airports?

Was it all right for the children who attended the People's Temple, many of whom died during the Kool Aid suicide in Guyana?

If you say none of these are OK, but it's OK to teach them Christianity, you've got a double standard going, and that is a main problem of mine with Christianity. All religions are cults to me, they all cause more harm than good in the world, and all the good that is done by religion now is also done by completely secular organizations, no religion necessary.

If children were no longer indoctrinated in religion before they could think for themselves, religion would die out in this world over a couple of generations.

And in my own oh-so-cynical opinion, that would be a very good thing.

Our job as parents is to make sure that our children become productive, educated contributors to society. Whatever our political or religious beliefs we cannot impose these on our children, prehaps our approval or disapproval will make a difference in certain matters, perhaps it won't.

My kids aren't carbon copies of me, and I don't want them to be. They are complete individuals of whom I am very proud.

We can offer advice and support but cannot make their minds up for them. While they are young we have a duty to protect them from harm, and frankly a class a couple of times a week about world religions doesn't constitute something harmful in my mind.

[edit on 20-7-2007 by DenyAllKnowledge]

Oh, if I didn't mention it, I'm not a Christian or Muslim or Jewish so I'm not defending Religious Education for religious reasons.

I think it is selfish of parents to decide what the child should believe in. I think they should be open to everything not just one particular religion or belief. There is so much out there and teaching a child is great but it should be infinite.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Let me ask you something, if we were discussing any other religion than Christianity, would you be defending it?

Your other examples are a bit unfair as they are completely life altering. Our society's morals and standards run parallel to that of Christianity's. So the only real difference between a Christian and a moral Atheist are beliefs that really don't effect anyone around them, aside from a little squabble here and there. Also as a personal opinion I think that being a Christian gives one a little extra conviction to uphold their morals; and more importantly, hope that what they do in life will always have meaning, even if it goes unnoticed on the secular level.

And the madrasas go parallel with the Islamic morals, etc.

It's all cults. Christianity is no exception and should get no special dispensation to exist.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
It's all cults. Christianity is no exception and should get no special dispensation to exist.

No special dispensation to exist? I never stated that other religions don't have a right to exist. Any religious belief has just as much right to exist as any scientific theory or other secular belief.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
And the madrasas go parallel with the Islamic morals, etc.

It's all cults. Christianity is no exception and should get no special dispensation to exist.

Something of a genuine dislike of Islam eh?

If you're going to go on about the whole cult thing then why not include the whole lot then? Atheism is something of a cult, so is pretty much every organised institution buisness, politics, etc. They all have their "icons" and "charismatic leaders". Indeed, alot of them also peddle lies!

Religions have had a dramatic effect on human civilisation. It is also an extremely interesting subject, epecially ancient (pre-christian) religions. I have no faith in a Christian or Moslem God, but I still appreciate the philosophies for what they are, just as I can appreciate the values in communism, democracy, etc for what they are. I might not agree with them but at least I try to understand them.

RME Atheism is not a cult or religion. It is the antithesis there of.

Only people who have religious brainwashing to undo believe that atheists are anything like a religion. The only thing that all atheists agree on is that they don't believe there is a god or the supernatural. That's the opposite of a religion or a cult, and only people who don't understand what atheism is make the mistake of calling it such.

It may not be as complex of a belief system as religion, but it is still a shared and labeled belief about the supernatural that is based on "faith" alone.

Well, for something that is supposedly the antithisis of religion there seems to be alot of written work on the subject, "prophets" even, especially if you read that "God Delusion" book. Which seems a bit strange. Atheism appears to be trumpeted by it's proponents as a kind of way of life, or perhaps they're not "proper" atheists. A schism in the House of Atheism?

I consider myself as having a understanding of what atheism stands for, just as I think i kind of understand what religion is about. I'm just sorry that this dicussion won't get anywhere.

Originally posted by DenyAllKnowledge
Our job as parents is to make sure that our children become productive, educated contributors to society. Whatever our political or religious beliefs we cannot impose these on our children, prehaps our approval or disapproval will make a difference in certain matters, perhaps it won't.

and frankly a class a couple of times a week about world religions doesn't constitute something harmful in my mind.

[edit on 20-7-2007 by DenyAllKnowledge]

hows this then? i respect your opinion on how you want to raise your kids, so please respect mine....in your mind, religious instrustion a couple times a week is not a bad thing....fine, great for your kids.
in my opinion, i HATE it. i think it is a TERRIBLE thing and that is my right.

your first paragraph sounds good and all and obviously my son is not a copy of me either. as you get to know me a bit more, you will see that i very much want my son to be his own person.
if i had my way, he would be going on 11 and would have never stepped into a church.
every parent 'imposes' their beliefs to some degree or another on their kids. thats how it works.
small details, large details, theology, favorite football teams, whatever....all parents do it. i would just rather my son not be brain washed.
being a parent means making choices for your child. that is a parents responsibility.

i don't like that fact that there is a crucifix in every class room and crosses all through the hall. i don't like that they have to pray in the morning and i don't like that they only get 20 minutes for lunch on the days they go to mass.
i would rather have my son learning math or english or friggin home ec for an hour instead of going to learn about this fairy tale....
that is my opinion on the matter.

a fast story. my son joined the cyo basketball league. i was going to the practices. on my first day i read the mission statement that stated that this sport was for god and it is not about winning and all that crap.
the mission statement was big on respect and all that. i guess that only went for the kids.

i just don't like it and i eagerly await the day that his mother can no longer afford to send him to this school and he can get in public school, or, he comes to live with me in a few years and he goes to public school.

hell, if i had my way right around 15-16 i'd want my kid(s) to take an equivalency exam to get the hell out of the school system as fast as possible.

Originally posted by paigcal
I think it is selfish of parents to decide what the child should believe in. I think they should be open to everything not just one particular religion or belief. There is so much out there and teaching a child is great but it should be infinite.

no parent teaches their kid everything nor do they try.
i've been around long enough to now how it works.
if your a religious family, when you have a baby, you teach it. when my little half bro was younger, he had all the baby jesus books and stuff.
i didn't read those books to my son.
if you're an atheist you don't go teaching the bible.
it's called reality......

thats how it works.....for lack of a better term, i prefer to teach my son neutrality. like i said, he gets his instruction from the catholic school but when he comes here, we open up. i ask him about the world and space and just things. we talk...i try to open his mind up a bit.
if my wife and i have a child, we will not be teaching him/her anything about religion. then, sooner or later they will come around asking cause it is all over and i will fire up the net and get on there and do some reading.
then, if my son or daughter decides they want to check out this church/god thing, then there mother can take them

Originally posted by DenyAllKnowledge

If you're going to go on about the whole cult thing then why not include the whole lot then? Atheism is something of a cult, so is pretty much every organised institution buisness, politics, etc. They all have their "icons" and "charismatic leaders". Indeed, alot of them also peddle lies!

brosef, what are you on about?
atheism is nothing like a cult or a religion.

take catholocism, baptists, and every other group that claims they know the truth. what do they do?
they 'worship' they pray. they congregate together in the same building a couple times a week. they pass out money in this building. they sing songs together in this building. they DO have their icons.

i as an atheist do none of those things.
i don't worship anything. i don't congregate to hang with other atheists cause frankly, i don't care...i don't go to these buildings with them and give my money to them....
can you see the difference?

i like to look out for people even though i don't like them.

see, for example certain religious groups look down on or treat differently say, homosexuals cause the book says it is a big no no...thee are the things cults do no?

i as an atheist don't call for harry potter books not to be printed cause it promotes 'paganism'.....as an atheist, i don't call for no homosexual marriages.....basically, i as an atheist stay out of it.

-----if you want to raise healty children, keep them as far away from the church as possible----FZ

-----the most important thing you can do with your life is not interfere with anyone elses-----FZ


-----remember, there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over------FZ

------whatever you have to do to have a good time, lets get on with it, as long as it doesn't cause a murder-----FZ


a few quotes that are important to me