Lets settle this "UK is a Police State" rubbish, right now..

What I find astounding is the crass arrogance of people who don't live here, and probably have never even set foot in the place STILL arguing over this, with residents from the UK.

Just how damn arrogant is that?

Gives me something to do at work on a quiet Sunday!

Agreed I have absolutely no faith in UK or German government, i had to give up UK citizenship coz its illegal in Germany to have both.
Both governments screw up on almost anything they touch (like most other governemts too). I have no faith in western democracies and I don't vote because there is no party that reflects my opinion. "Western Democracy" is only the least bad of systems, but nothing I can identify with.

Ok fair enough. At least I know where your coming from now.

So, I assume that if we had a Government you did trust and the System "worked" (lets assume it doesn't....that isn't the debate), you wouldn't have a problem with CCTV.

Your objection is that you believe the Government itself has nefarious intentions, rather than a problem with CCTV itself?

[edit on 15/7/07 by stumason]

@neformore

If you are referring to me, i spent roughly 10 of my 38 years in the UK, and had both citizenships until a few years ago. My mother was from Woking, Surrey and my Dad was German.

Originally posted by stumason
Ok fair enough. At least I know where your coming from now.

So, I assume that if we had a Government you did trust and the System "worked" (lets assume it doesn't....that isn't the debate), you wouldn't have a problem with CCTV.

Your objection is that you believe the Government itself has nefarious intentions, rather than a problem with CCTV itself?

[edit on 15/7/07 by stumason]

No, totally wrong. A government that plasters its country with cameras and distrusts its own citizens would never get my vote, let alone my trust.

Originally posted by stumason

And the UK has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Go figure.

At what price? Nazi Germany had low crime.

That was me who "claimed" that and, guess what, it's from the exact same report people like you use as a source to cite the infamous "300 times a day" claim. I linked to that report, obviously you deemed yourself above reading the thread.

Theres nobody like me, I'm unique. Thanks for the person attack. people "like" me.

I've actually been involved in the discussion. Posting pics without comment adds nothing.

Didn't know you hold the cards on what adds content to a dicussion or not. Let those who view this thread decide.

Oh my god! On one hand, you cry that we're followed from street to street, and now you claim the above?

Read my damn post! I said they CAN follow you from street to street, not that they are. But they could watch, out of boredom, somebody doing something, invading your privacy, etc.

If your "incriminating" yourself, that implies your committing a crime. So, if your committing a crime, what possible defence could you employ that CCTV is bad? Simple answer, don't commit a crime.... Or, if you have to, don't be so daft as to do it in front of a CCTV camera....

Statistically 6 out out every 10 people are "criminals." Most of us do very petty crimes on a day by day basis that nobody cares they're breaking. Who picks up a dollar bill on the ground? Who spits out gum or throws a cigarette bud on the ground when its spent? Who occassionally takes a pen or a notepad or a laser printer from a office storage? The MAJORITY of people are criminals.

Maintainence, perhaps? I don't know what the official reason is, or even if it is true. Care to enlighten me?

I don't know what the official reason is easier. Either way, it wasn't very useful, was it?

[edit on 7-15-2007 by WolfofWar]

Nah, I reckon he was aiming at WolfofWar, who is a Yank.

You stated earlier you lived in the UK, so we'll let you off

Originally posted by stumason
Nah, I reckon he was aiming at WolfofWar, who is a Yank.

You stated earlier you lived in the UK, so we'll let you off

Actually I'm an American, not a "Yank."

I don't call you a Limey, or Pommy, or a Redcoat, atleast do me the decency to do the same. Thanks.

Originally posted by stumason
And the UK has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Go figure.

IIRC it has higher crime rates than most other EU states except Italy. Despite all the CCTV.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
At what price? Nazi Germany had low crime.

No price, chap. I haven't lost ANYTHING as a result. In fact, I was convicted for a crime I did not commit when I was 18, because the police FAILED to get CCTV images that would have proved me innocent.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
Theres nobody like me, I'm unique.

Thanks for the person attack. people "like" me.

Personal attack? I was implying "people like you" as in the people who cry about this fictitious "Police State". Got some esteem issues there if you think that was a personal attack, chum.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
Didn't know you hold the cards on what adds content to a dicussion or not. Let those who view this thread decide.

Maybe then you could post a comment, rather than just some pictures and a sarcastic comment?

Originally posted by WolfofWar
Read my damn post! I said they CAN follow you from street to street, not that they are. But they could watch, out of boredom, somebody doing something, invading your privacy, etc.

I could do that to you without the aid of a camera. There is no such thing as privacy in a public area. Or do you want everyone to look away when you come down the street, in case they see you and "invade your privacy?"

Originally posted by WolfofWar
Statistically 6 out out every 10 people are "criminals." Most of us do very petty crimes on a day by day basis that nobody cares they're breaking. Who picks up a dollar bill on the ground? Who spits out gum or throws a cigarette bud on the ground when its spent? Who occassionally takes a pen or a notepad or a laser printer from a office storage? The MAJORITY of people are criminals.

Then, using your assertion here, it is safe to assume that CCTV isn't used to enforce a "Police State", is it?

Originally posted by WolfofWar
I don't know what the official reason is easier. Either way, it wasn't very useful, was it?

If true, no. But then again, other camera's did capture them, so it is an academic argument at best. I doubt had the camera's even been working, they would stop terrorists. They are used retroactively to gather evidence most of the time, rather than pro actively. Only one's that are live monitored, of which very, very few are, can pro actively be used to fight crime.

Originally posted by casketizer
Agreed I have absolutely no faith in UK or German government, i had to give up UK citizenship coz its illegal in Germany to have both.
Both governments screw up on almost anything they touch (like most other governemts too). I have no faith in western democracies and I don't vote because there is no party that reflects my opinion. "Western Democracy" is only the least bad of systems, but nothing I can identify with.

Hold on. Germany is in the EU so it doesnt matter what nationality you are.

I have several friends who live and work in Bremen with British passports

here are some crime rate figures for 2003. Cannot locate any for years since, yet....




The figures are per 100,000 population.

As you can see, England is lower in a few categories. We're higher in rape, which won't be stopped by CCTV anyway as it usually occurs inside or out of town.

Admittedly, England (and the rest of the UK) has a problem with street theft, but these figures are coming down as well.

Seems I am more likely to be a victim of serious assault in Germany than i am in the UK.

EDIT: here is a link for crime figures in england and Wales during 2005

www.crimereduction.gov.uk...


[edit on 15/7/07 by stumason]

Originally posted by Chorlton


Hold on. Germany is in the EU so it doesnt matter what nationality you are.

I have several friends who live and work in Bremen with British passports

What I mean is that dual citizenships are not allowed for Germans anymore, you are either one or the other, you have to decide. Of course I could have decided to keep British citizenship and still have moved to Germany to live here. But its not legal anymore to have another citizenship besides the German. Some guy in a British consulate told me that i could regain the British citizenship anytime if i want to, since this is not the case with the German citizenship, the reason for my choice is obvious

So you actually DO have dual nationality but a German passport.
A passport does not denote nationality.
Have you been Naturalised?,

I have both UK and OZ Nationality being aNaturalised Australian citizen but as I was born in the UKI prefer, and have a British Passport.

Originally posted by stumason
here are some crime rate figures for 2003. Cannot locate any for years since, yet....




The figures are per 100,000 population.

As you can see, England is lower in a few categories. We're higher in rape, which won't be stopped by CCTV anyway as it usually occurs inside or out of town.

Admittedly, England (and the rest of the UK) has a problem with street theft, but these figures are coming down as well.

Seems I am more likely to be a victim of serious assault in Germany than i am in the UK.

EDIT: here is a link for crime figures in england and Wales during 2005

www.crimereduction.gov.uk...


[edit on 15/7/07 by stumason]

I am pretty sure that our governments doctor those statistics anyway, IE what qualifies as rape in UK doesn't necessarily qualify as rape here (until very recently in Germany rape inside a marriage did not qualify as rape...go figure). i bet there are many such differences. what i did remember is that there was a lot more theft in Britain than over here, despite the CCTV. Also, what exactly qualifies as serous assault, and what doesn't? The huge difference IMO can only be explained by definition differences.
Amazing is the Swedish homicide number....Gee I thought that country was as safe as a Volvo, but if those numbers are per 100.000 then you have a 0.1% chance of getting killed there?? Twice as much as in trigger happy USA? I don't buy it.

[Edit: Typos fixed, post was typed in a hurry while telling myself "no I don't need to go to have a pee now"]

[edit on 15-7-2007 by casketizer]

''The UK Government at any time can take your rights from you. Period. Why?... Because there's no limit to what they can do.''

As they have done over the past ten years little by little
The right to free higher education
The right to go about your business without being monitored via c.c.t.v
The right to potentially life saving drugs on the n.h.s
The right to know whether or not a paedophile is living at the end of your street
The right for your kids to go to a school where English is the first and only language

As for the police state issue, I don't believe we are a police state but we are definitely now a fully fledged surveillance society, there has been a feeling of apathy amongst the British public with regards to what the government says and does for the whole of the Blair era so basically we've just sat back and let it happen and we have no control over where its going

All i've read on this topic is the same thing over and over, Stumason from reading your posts i can get a message of "What can the goverment provide for me?" instead of "What can I do to provide for my country", we are being brainwashed into thinking that the goverment should be protecting us, they should be representing us. Kid's are being brainwashed that the big brother society is good, they have even started finger printing children to get there school meals. Big Brother the TV program, the media makes out being watched 24/7 is cool and your way to fame.

Yes, CCTV can be good at catching criminals aslong as its regulated more, the amount of CCTV is shocking in this country, if freedoms keep on eroding in this country the whole "Big Brother" state gets worse. All the new terrorism laws that get put in place, the goverment doesn't even know what a terrorist is, a old age pensioner who was in the war was arressted on terrorism charges for heckling a MP. You can no longer protest outside withing 1 mile of the Houses of Parliament anymore, how can a goverment know what the people want when it ignores these protests.

The UK has a massive database of information of everyone this is all collected from school records, NHS records, crime records, car records etc the list goes on and on. We have speed camera's where there not needing taking pictures of everyone's cars. All it takes is one smart poltician and the country can be turned into a dictatorship in no time. Then, what use is the CCTV going to be used for? Hell they have even added camera's that talk and listen into people's conversations. The "if have nothing to hide" attutuide keeps going like it is we will be heading to a dictatorship because people reley on the goverment far to much in this country.

I have no problem with CCTV, but when are rights are being eroded and kids being brainwashed to give their biometric details because there told to by the education authorities, we are heading into murkey water. ID Card another waste of money and gives the goverment even more details about you, this has proven not to work. We may aswell stand outside a goverment building and hand over everything we own and tell them everything about us at this rate.

Originally posted by Chorlton
So you actually DO have dual nationality but a German passport.
A passport does not denote nationality.
Have you been Naturalised?,

I have both UK and OZ Nationality being aNaturalised Australian citizen but as I was born in the UKI prefer, and have a British Passport.

According to the German governments point of view I have one nationality and one passport, its ok if it makes them happy.
That law was mostly targeted at Turkish and other immigrants from "southeastern Europe". but we dual EU citizens also got caught in it, coz when german bureaucrats execute a law they do it 100% and "take no prisoners".

''The UK Government at any time can take your rights from you. Period. Why?... Because there's no limit to what they can do.''

As they have done over the past ten years little by little
The right to free higher education
The right to go about your business without being monitored via c.c.t.v
The right to potentially life saving drugs on the n.h.s
The right to know whether or not a paedophile is living at the end of your street
The right for your kids to go to a school where English is the first and only language

As for the police state issue, I don't believe we are a police state but we are definitely now a fully fledged surveillance society, there has been a feeling of apathy amongst the British public with regards to what the government says and does for the whole of the Blair era so basically we've just sat back and let it happen and we have no control over where its going