Lets settle this "UK is a Police State" rubbish, right now..

Originally posted by Infoholic
"You'll be ok as long as you walk this fine line and obey your master."

Isn't almost EVERY country / state like that.

That's why you get PUNISHED, because you do not walk that line.

I also believe there was a story of some person that had a friend that got declared ''unamerican'', due to having different views about america than most people. Old thread posted here on ats.

Now if you get declared unamerican because your views are different.. Seems like a "fine" line to walk in the US if you ask me.

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by andy1033
People exploit the system, whether you believe it or not, thats not the point. There are seriously dodgy things being done in britain to INNOCENT(see how i shout that word) people. They know all to well he never did anything, but it never goes away. So you do not have to believe anything, but the fact that this case is real, means that there are some really dodgy people in the police doing horrendous things to people they know have never done anything(they know this because they have monitored him for years).

Yes, I know. You said that already.

WHAT (see how I shouted that word) are they doing to him?

Seeing as the Police don't have the resources to tackle drunken violence on a Friday night, I really do not believe for a moment they would waste years of manpower, money and equipment just to "annoy" someone.

You see, I know several Police persons. Most of my family (including extended) are either serving or former Forces. I know the types of people that do these jobs and for the life of me, I cannot see the Police doing this, EVER (shouting again...did you notice?)

Any operation needs to be sanctioned by their CO. If it's long running and using up money and manpower, that CO's CO is going to wonder what is going on. You see? If it's on the books, then they must have a reason, either that your insinuating the entire of his local Police Force is corrupt.

In which case, if he is being harassed for no reason, there is the IPCC. Has he used them? If not, he's a moron or lying about what is going on.

No he has not used IPCC, how would he build any sort of case against them.

Just let them perv into a family and for what some nut does years ago, while he was staying in there house, the mad police think anyone in that house is the same person. That person stayed in there house for a few weeks, then left the country years ago, and the mad police are still doing the looney crap they started, years ago.

Police should work out that one person who stays with a family for 3 weeks, and then moves out of the country, is not in that house, and nobody in that house is him, or like him.

But like they say to join the english police you do not need to be smart, they just have to join.

[edit on 7/15/2007 by andy1033]

Not all Americans are stupid. I just think we've had it too good for too long and we've been sheltered and lived in a bubble for hundreds of years and this has led to lots of apathy and "this couldnt happen here" type of mentality.

As bad as things are, some of us still "dont get it" that we're headed for disaster and dont care which is what really bothers the world. In that sense we are stupidos moronicos.

The world laughs at us and when laugh at the world.

Isnt it crazy?

Originally posted by dgtempe
Not all Americans are stupid. I just think we've had it too good for too long and we've been sheltered and lived in a bubble for hundreds of years and this has led to lots of apathy and "this couldnt happen here" type of mentality.

As bad as things are, some of us still "dont get it" that we're headed for disaster and dont care which is what really bothers the world. In that sense we are stupidos moronicos.

The world laughs at us and when laugh at the world.

Isnt it crazy?

Once they do something to one person and get away with it, they will eventually do it to everyone.

Originally posted by johnsky
Don't feel so bad man, I'm a Canadian, we've come to expect Americans to say really stupid things...
It's a joke up here, whenever someone says something in ignorance, to ask if they are American.

Like broad generalizations of a country with 300 million people in it

Originally posted by johnsky
Most of the schools down there don't teach much in the way of geography, nor do they educate their kids on how governments are run outside of their own borders.

I agree English has been replaced by Phonics and Ebonics, Algebra by Business Math, Science by Sex Education, History Government Geography and Civics have been replaced by Finger Painting, Basket Weaving, Physical Educationand Music and I am not talking Mozart.

Originally posted by johnsky
Most Americans do not own a passport. What could they possibly know about the world?

I have been to 30 different countries but I at present dont have a passport
having a passport is not a requirement for knowledge

Originally posted by johnsky
It leads to things like, calling Canada a communist country... and when you ask why they think that way, their most common response is "Your flag is red" and "Your hospitals are free"

Americans do tend to equate socialism with communism wrongly so

Originally posted by johnsky
When you actually do educate them on how our government is run, they usually get that shocked look on their face, to learn that we have more control over our government than they do with theirs.

Most politics is local in the US and in practice locally we have much more control than folks think. Its the International stuff that gets us.

Originally posted by johnsky
We've simply come to accept that Americans are going to say some really ignorant things. In fact, we've come to think of it as quite humorous... like a 3 stooges film.

Americans just have to live with the fact that broad generalizations of a of our populace will occur because while folks say we dont understand the world really the world doesnt understand us either.

I am half German, half English, grew up in Germany until i was ~20 then lived in the UK (first Woking, Surrey then London, near Hanover Street). One of the reasons why I left the UK and am now back in Germany, apart from the costs of living, was the ever growing array of CCTV cameras watching me 24/7 unless I am at home. The argument "If you don't do anything against the law, you dont have to fear the CCTV" just doesn't cut it for me. Germany certainly has its own problem with useless laws (Video Game censorship is one example), but a total CCTV coverage scenario like in the UK would not be possible here, probably because people here learned their lesson from Nazi times. I have no problem with CCTVing crime hotspots, like where the drug scene meets or where open prostitution is allowed. But the almost total coverage the UK has now is unacceptable for me.
I agree that the UK is nowhere near Nazi Germany or former Commie States yet, but it is certainly on the best way to there, at full speed, with all the CCTV and the UK police's new "Zero Tolerance" policies.
No way I am ever going to move back to the UK if it is going to stay this way, which is a shame coz apart from this and the high cost of living, i really loved living in London.

Originally posted by andy1033
No he has not used IPCC, how would he build any sort of case against them.

Just let them perv into a family and for what some nut does years ago, while he was staying in there house, the mad police think anyone in that house is the same person. That person stayed in there house for a few weeks, then left the country years ago, and the mad police are still doing the looney crap they started, years ago.

Police should work out that one person who stays with a family for 3 weeks, and then moves out of the country, is not in that house, and nobody in that house is him, or like him.

But like they say to join the english police you do not need to be smart, they just have to join.

If he hasn't even bothered to contact the Police over this "harassment", I have bugger all sympathy. Like I said, he's either a moron or mildly insane.

There is plenty of avenues of recourse to stop this, if it is indeed happening.

I don't believe the facts are as presented either. Your implying the Police are monitoring him because someone stayed there years ago? How stupid is that?

Tell him to and complain, for crying out loud. If he doesn't, then you know he's a bit wobbly, so keep him away from the wacky tobaccy!

As for the comment about joining the Police, it's a bit ignorant. They need to be able to learn the law and whilst there is no minimum educational requirements, they won't pass Police College if they're thick.

stumason- yep we are just going around in circles. you cannot go into a police station and go, why are you monitoring me. They will not listen to anyone saying that, and how the hell would he be able to bring a complaint about them to the ipcc, if he does not know what was made up about him, to start this in the first place.

He just wanted to live his life, but could not. Its ok that you do not believe, but there are quite a few that know of this story, and it is going on.

We'll just leave it there and agree to disagree.

Originally posted by andy1033
Just let them perv into a family and for what some nut does years ago, while he was staying in there house, the mad police think anyone in that house is the same person. That person stayed in there house for a few weeks, then left the country years ago, and the mad police are still doing the looney crap they started, years ago.

Sorry but thats crap.

My fathers cousin, after years of mental health problems, had a fit of jealous insanity and stabbed her twin sister through the heart with a pair of sharp scissors.

The result? Manslaughter verdict. Sentenced to 15 years in a secure institution for rehabilitation. The family was never once botherd by the police after the verdict.

Sounds like your friend has a bad case of paranoia.

There are only two things that would - as far as I can tell - warrant repeated police monitoring. Terrorism (in which case I highly doubt he would ever know it was happening) or peadophillia, in which case he would have had to have been charged and put on the sex offenders register in order for them to continually check his location and place of work.



[edit on 15/0707/07 by neformore]

Originally posted by casketizer
I am half German, half English, grew up in Germany until i was ~20 then lived in the UK (first Woking, Surrey then London, near Hanover Street). One of the reasons why I left the UK and am now back in Germany, apart from the costs of living, was the ever growing array of CCTV cameras watching me 24/7 unless I am at home. The argument "If you don't do anything against the law, you dont have to fear the CCTV" just doesn't cut it for me.

But what CCTV would this be? Like I said, 93% is within private business's. I'd make a good bet that Germany and anywhere else in Europe has an extensive CCTV coverage as well. Most you don't even notice. I'll look and see if I can find comparable stats for other EU countries.

Originally posted by casketizer
Germany certainly has its own problem with useless laws (Video Game censorship is one example), but a total CCTV coverage scenario like in the UK would not be possible here, probably because people here learned their lesson from Nazi times.

Indeed. the first ever CCTV camera was used to watch the V2 launches.

Originally posted by casketizer
I have no problem with CCTVing crime hotspots, like where the drug scene meets or where open prostitution is allowed. But the almost total coverage the UK has now is unacceptable for me.

I'm curious as to what your impression of CCTV is? It certainly isn't anywhere near Total coverage in the UK anyway.

Originally posted by casketizer
I agree that the UK is nowhere near Nazi Germany or former Commie States yet, but it is certainly on the best way to there, at full speed, with all the CCTV and the UK police's new "Zero Tolerance" policies.

Dude, UK police "No Tolerance" policies are, 9/10, focussed on underage drinking and anti-social behaviour. I take it from your stance that these thinsg should be acceptable? What else would you do?

Originally posted by casketizer
No way I am ever going to move back to the UK if it is going to stay this way, which is a shame coz apart from this and the high cost of living, i really loved living in London.

We shall see how Germany measures up, shall we?

Germany has its share of CCTV cameras also take a look at this article for 2 years ago.

A Close Look at Surveillance in Europe

Its going to become commonplace everywhere I think.

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by andy1033
Just let them perv into a family and for what some nut does years ago, while he was staying in there house, the mad police think anyone in that house is the same person. That person stayed in there house for a few weeks, then left the country years ago, and the mad police are still doing the looney crap they started, years ago.

Sorry but thats crap.

My fathers cousin, after years of mental health problems, had a fit of jealous insanity and stabbed her twin sister through the heart with a pair of sharp scissors.

The result? Manslaughter verdict. Sentenced to 15 years in a secure institution for rehabilitation. The family was never once botherd by the police after the verdict.

Sounds like your friend has a bad case of paranoia.

haha, like i said above, this is happening and those around him know it is. but we will agree to disagree.

There is a no on that terrorism thing, but given that he never knew what was made up about him, they could of claimed him to be a paedo, even though he was never charged or did anything to warrent that accusation.

I made a thread on the case elsewhere and someone said it had to be the police monitoring him, and that sort of monitoring does not stop till you die.

[edit on 7/15/2007 by andy1033]

On my travels looking for German CCTV figures, I found this:

The Netherlands and Germany are reputed to have the highest levels of covert governmental mobile phone tapping. The article on telephone tapping states:

"There were proposals for European mobile phones to use stronger encryption, but this was opposed by a number of European countries, including the Netherlands and Germany, which are among the world's most prolific telephone tappers (over 10000+ phone numbers in both countries in 2003)."

In 2002 German citizens were tipped off about the scale of tapping, when a software error led to a phone number allocated to the German Secret Service being listed on mobile telephone bills. [5]

Source

More to follow!

I edited my post Andy with some extra thoughts - seems like ATS is moving fast today!

Just thought you should know.

Originally posted by stumason
On my travels looking for German CCTV figures, I found this:

The Netherlands and Germany are reputed to have the highest levels of covert governmental mobile phone tapping. The article on telephone tapping states:

"There were proposals for European mobile phones to use stronger encryption, but this was opposed by a number of European countries, including the Netherlands and Germany, which are among the world's most prolific telephone tappers (over 10000+ phone numbers in both countries in 2003)."

In 2002 German citizens were tipped off about the scale of tapping, when a software error led to a phone number allocated to the German Secret Service being listed on mobile telephone bills. [5]

Source

More to follow!

Imagine how many storage devices this is all on, waiting to be analysed. Also all that cctv camera footage, that is being stored for future use.

Do they say how long they keep all this stuff.

[edit on 7/15/2007 by andy1033]

Originally posted by andy1033
stumason- yep we are just going around in circles. you cannot go into a police station and go, why are you monitoring me. They will not listen to anyone saying that, and how the hell would he be able to bring a complaint about them to the ipcc, if he does not know what was made up about him, to start this in the first place.

He just wanted to live his life, but could not. Its ok that you do not believe, but there are quite a few that know of this story, and it is going on.

We'll just leave it there and agree to disagree.

no, your going around in circles, I've offered a very good avenue to resolve this.

Yes you can just go into a station and make a complaint. To think you cannot is foolish.

The IPCC, if they believe the case has merit and if he is sincere and has some evidence (digital pictures? witnesses? You say he has witnesses) then they WILL investigate.

Your skirting the issue and claiming that nothing can be done is making me think someone is making it up.

If they are really bothering him, he could get a nice apology and a pay out if he has done nothing wrong......

So, I'll ask again, why has he not gone to the Police or IPCC?

I dont know why this is confined to UK, America is just baby steps behind all that is going on there so we're part of this too.

In fact we kicked it off with this war. We're in this together and both countries are facing the same thing.

Originally posted by dgtempe
I dont know why this is confined to UK, America is just baby steps behind all that is going on there so we're part of this too.

In fact we kicked it off with this war. We're in this together and both countries are facing the same thing.

I started the thread because in almost every NWO/War on Terror/Evil Bunny Rabbits from Mars thread, someone claims that the UK is a Police State and we end up derailing the topic with the back and forth.

Obviously, if you wish, chime in with your own stories from across the pond, but the thread was created as a response to repeated false accusations.

I wouldn't call it a police state but it is seriously becoming a nanny state with unknown "experts" advising us how to do practically everything their way with the threat of a new "witchhunt" of sorts if the majority don't comply. There's a lot of stupidness involved and things are becoming uncomfortable. Folk are being asked more and more to spy on their neighbours, frown upon this and that etc.Get this. It's rubbish and insignificant to most people, but it's true. A nearby fishing town planned it's summer Sea Queen festival recently. Every year, (for centuries maybe), someone brings a donkey along for the kids to get rides. It was called off this year because the council, on orders given by the EU, ordered that the donkey wear a nappy, (that's a diaper in the US), and the owner flatly refused. The home made raft race they used to have was scrapped a couple of years ago by the same sort of health and safety do-gooders. And next year they probably won't have the parachute team fall from the sky because although they follow their own tight regime of safety rules they're getting more slung at the from "above" and it's not fun any more.A few months ago a new law ruled that kids under a certain height must use a booster seat in a car. We couldn't buy one anywhere for about three weeks and when our local shop got them in I found it was a rectangular block of polystyrene with a nylon cover. That is a law???? For those weeks I was scared to go out I could have used a damned cushion. I feel sorry for the police, I really do, if these are the kinds of things they have to get involved in.Other silly rules mean that violent murderers are set free on our streets, junkies are given more perks than the working class, if a 20 yr old has sex with a 14 yr old they go on the same list as a 40 yr old who pervs on smaller kids and the monitoring of these folk is laughable. Don't believe anyone who says "that guy is safe because we've got him tagged". That's another laughable story.It's not a police state, it's "the police in a state" if you ask me.

[edit on 15-7-2007 by wigit]

When I walked to work in London I was under CCTV surveillance 95% of the way. Here in Germany a decision was made to only monitor crime hot spots, and that is ok for me. Also here it must clearly be announced with huge signs when a place is under CCTV surveillance, so no hidden CCTV possible.
I found the CCTV presence in UK almost oppressive, you realize that you change your own behavior even if you did nothing wrong. I don't want to live that way.
Regarding phone tapping here:
Yes they do tap a lot of phones here, but to do it, they need a court order, signed by a judge. This doesn't happen unless you are under strong suspicion of a crime, there has to be other evidence before a judge signs such an order. Also if you were tapped and they did not find anything they have to notify you, and also the people you were talking to, about the tapping, after the investigation. I am sure the laws are similar to other EU countries, just here it is actually used more often.
Oh and you do know that UK is part of Echelon? Only God knows how many mobile phones, emails, faxes and whatnot they are monitoring and storing.

Regarding Zero Tolerance:
When I spent the first longer times in the UK, back in the good days, a bobby was a friend, he would help you and was never regarded as something negative. Now the UK police has kinda developed into a force with a subjectively felt oppressive smell. Thats what I meant. I dont mind them being harsh on young drunkards.