Where do people on ATS stand on this?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
no, not " 'nuff said"
there is no need for god in the system. god adds no additional understanding of the processes that have eventually created human life.

OH NO!, not again. I just went through this WHOLE thing with an athiest and won. Oh well, here I go again.

Let me just post all my posts together in one uniform statement. Warning, LONG!

Ah hem *coughs to clear throat*:

How do electron and photons know ahead of time to be in multiple places at once and that all return to the same point of stopping. How do these little particles understand and seem to "know" how to form certain patterns, even sent one by one alone (double slit experiment) Please, tell me hoe these little wonders don't prove God's existence. If there are multiple dementions, how come one can't be above all others (heaven). Why does the multiverse not prove God exists?

The proof, if your wondering, is that every universe know that if something happens, they must split into the infinite different possibilities that could arise. How does a universe "know" to split into separate ones for every possible senario? God could only explain it, because what other universal intelligence know to split for anything from an electron going to point A or B, to a Galaxy going to point A or B. The universe, better said, the multiverse universally know how to react to every possibility.

Even if not God, its some form of super intelligence doing it, which goes into a paradox, because I consider this to BE God.

I'm not saying anything about who or what is God, just pointing out that a photon is smarter then most of you because it can me decision on a quantum level faster then all of you and me put together. Its not the old mystery = God crap, its stating that light has a life force because it thinks. It know before you know where the first point to begin is and last point of exit is. This proves that it is in multiple dementions at once, and is viewing through this multiverse where to go. And I propose that if there are multiple dementions for every scenario, and the universe know when to split into each of these different ones when something happens every split second (and yes, science is starting to show this) that there must be some sort of computing brain in the multiverse telling universes to split apart like bacteria. Its not trying to show that mystery = God, its simply connecting the dots.

Look it up, scientists proved it. Only place I could realy think to remember where this is posted is here:
(note, mute because music is stupid and loud and anoying and pointless)
Pt1
quantumiscool1.ytmnd.com...
Pt2
quantamiscool2.ytmnd.com...
(ignore hotpockets, don't ask)
Pt3
yqpic3.ytmnd.com...
Pt4
wqpic4.ytmnd.com...

Yea, YTMND isn't the best site for science, but once in a while someone makes something that makes it cool.

Quote from: Helbore on Yesterday at 04:37:35 PM
It's like says that a rock that fell off a cliff must have been suicidal and decided to jump. Clearly factors like weather, erosion and gravity had nothing to do with it and if they did, they were obviously thinking entities, too.



True, but these objects or not at the sub atomic level, they are limited by time. Sub atomic things are not.

Another skeptic? Ha, human mentality is so funny. Christians say carbon dating is wrong to disprove evolution. Now atheists, to further their agenda, say there are no multiple dimensions.

A.) It has bee proven that after passing light through something, it came out technically before it came in, aka, Time travel. Google it for me, I have no idea where I found it or what they passed it through. but if time travel exists, then multiple dimentions exists as it is required to go through different planes of existence in order to toy around withe time and gravity and the likes.

B.) Please watch the vids i posted above. Photons are above the realm of time that limits us. They are simultaneously in our dimension and a timeless dimension.

C.) There's never one of anything. There are multiplies of everything. From quarks and the likes up to galaxies. Why must this pattern in our universe not continue onto multiples of universes.

D.) These quantum physics experiments may not prove God, but it proves a system of intelligence through out the universe. It's now fact that electrons, photons, and others contain intelligence at a quantum level.
please see the vids above.

Also, I just wanted to make this statement. EVERYTHING in the universe is forever. All the matter and energy is constant, and everything is forever. Energy and mass may change their places and be converted, but it stays the same in quantity. Why is it that life should be the single anomaly to this pattern in the universe. Why is it that life is the single thing in all of known space that simply "ends" and is no more. What is it that makes this true? Why is life the only exception of the universe's ever lastingness. You should realize the patterns in the universe, and that pattern dictates that nothing ends. Even if the big crunch, big rip, or whatever you believe will end the universe happens, the matter will recreate the big bang again, and restart itself. As always, everything is forever. The number of photons, electrons, and so forth are always the same in terms of mass and always changing in quantity. Things convert, positrons are made, beta particles are made, all those crazy formulas always happen, but matter is forever. So why is life an exception?

A bit crazy and poetic yea, but it gets you thinking.

Google "photons think" and similar stuff. look it up. I'm not a slave to teach people, I'm just suggesting you connect the dots of the patterns in the universe.

P.S. Mabey this cartoon will help you understand.

video.google.com...

If an electron can think, then why can't the universe? Why can't the multiverse?
It may not prove God, but it proves there is a universal intelligence that MAY be God.

Like it or not the science you all claim disproved God is leaking into sciences that prove that there is some sort of intelligent force out there that may be God.

there is a loss of energy no one can point to why when someone dies. But I think that if an electron knows to split an rejoin in order to be in multiple places, and the universe knows to split into more universes every second, then it seems that God could very well be out there in being the system creator. And your body does change, but I'm talking about life, not the matter your made of. Everyone of your cells is, alone, is a living organism, independent to other cells, just but a slave to its need of blood and food. Your "life" is defined as all these other lives working as one. But when you die, its been found that all you cells are still alive, just you heart has stopped. I know I sound like I'm copying off someplace else, but the point is where is your "life" determined by heart and brain activity? If all you cells are still going, why have you died? The matter your made up will change after you die, but you "life" in which you were active before death has stopped and left, long before your body begins to change. Have you seen this experiment?

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Seeing as how nothing has died, why have you died. Obviously, there is an unseen force driving the body. That may be the soul, or maybe an unseen part of the brain. In any case, its odd how you die when nothing else has. Hey, nerves have been found to show activity a month after death.
It confusing, but there is no "unknown = God". It is, as I have said many times, connecting the dots with logic.


There, read it and go "OW!"

Originally posted by Gorman91
e has. Hey, nerves have been found to show activity a month after death.
It confusing, but there is no "unknown = God". It is, as I have said many times, connecting the dots with logic.


There, read it and go "OW!"

Sorry Broseph, but all of that stuff you just wrote is "unknown = God" None of it proves God's existence in the slightest. It just proves that there are entire fields and areas of study that need to be studied frrther scientifically.

Multiverse, ambient universal energy, all that stuff doesn't in the slightest "PROVE" god's existence. God is just a theory that has very little supporting evidence outside of faith.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
God is just a theory that has very little supporting evidence outside of faith.

Oh, I will be so bold as to take that further: there is NO empirical evidence supporting the existence of god. There is only faith. And faith and science appear to be mutually exclusive to me at this point. I'm still researching if they can ever co-exist, or if one has to go. If one has to go, I know which one I choose ...

Exactly where and how did the bible tell you that the erath is 6000 years old, Or is it that you follow popular beblieve without research and analysis.

I believe its the latter, we evolved. Earth evolved, our atmosphere and ecosphere is a well oiled machine that has formed itself over time. As for the bible, I'm sure alot of the information documented in the bible is true, like Noah's ark, Jesus, etc.

Noah's ark, I would think it was involved in a flood, but certainly not a world wide covering. All that water would not just dissipate in the last few thousand years. We would STILL be in a waterworld-like environment with minimal land mass visible above sea level.

As for Jesus Christ, sure I think he existed, and I think he had a great impact on those around him, but I believe his glorification was possibly an oversight or a scam, sure maybe he had the gift to heal, raise dead, water to wine, etc, the human mind has been proven to be more developed in rare humans, and Im confident back in Jesus' days the human minds were less polluted, and more gullible as well.

I've graduated from a christian school, I've studied the basic make-up of the Religion of God, Son, and Holy Spirit, etc, so Im not exactly just some D-Bunking Troll.

On a far fetched note, maybe Jesus was not of this world? That would definately help explain his "Resurrection".

These are just my opinions, but I think blindingly believing that God exists and created our delicate environs in one week... thats pretty far fetched.

So in the end, I'm a believe in the scientific explanations, with an open mind to other ideas.

Evolution by mutation is highly unlikely.
First of all the mutant would likely be killed by its mother or siblings just because there is a natural instinct to fear and destroy that which is different. Anyone here raise chickens?
When you do it the old fashioned way with the mother hen you will find that any chick that is different, say it has dark patches on it, will be pecked to death.

The other thing is that you need more than one mutant.

Talk about changes taking place – dogs are a great example. They come in all sizes shapes and colors and patterns of colors. That is not evolution. If all the breeds of dogs were to be turned loose in the wild today, it would only take a few generations for them to all return to their original size, shape and color – that is the wolf shape and color.

There is no proof of evolution. Archeologists find in the strata that some species died out, while others came into being fully formed; no in-between species ever.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Sorry Broseph, but all of that stuff you just wrote is "unknown = God" None of it proves God's existence in the slightest. It just proves that there are entire fields and areas of study that need to be studied frrther scientifically.

Multiverse, ambient universal energy, all that stuff doesn't in the slightest "PROVE" god's existence. God is just a theory that has very little supporting evidence outside of faith.

Actually yes it does. The universe demands a pattern. A pattern from photons and electrons knowing where to go all the way up to the universes knowing when to split every second for every change, then why must not the pattern continue onto the multiverse and there being a supreme intelligence out there?

OhZone, mutants are not always killed, they sometimes are abandoned. When they are abandoned, what if they get lucky and learn to live on their own, and then find a mate.

If humans evolved from any ape-like creature, why did they evolve as hairless? Earth’s climate has never been 100% compatible with a hairless human.
Also how about those blood sucking insects – the hairless human certainly is at a great disadvantage there wouldn’t you say?
Also the human’s skin is very thin and so is easily damaged in any natural environment.
Ever try just walking thru the woods wearing very little, where there was not trodden path.
Got all scratched up didn’t you?
And then there is the matter of predator animals who would find these hairless humans easily gotten dinner.
Every type of ape/monkey has muscles that are pound for pound several times stronger than those of the human.
No great evolutionary advantage there.
Man “evolving” into such a flimsy creature is illogical.
Do you think god would create such a flimsy creature and put him onto a hostile planet like Earth? Oh, I forget, god created the Earth and all its creatures too. Hmmmm, so why would he want to put his most prized creation in a place like this?

There is no proof of evolution. Archeologists find in the strata that some species died out, while others came into being fully formed; no in-between species ever.















Dolphin with hind legs \/


Bible says so also

A thousand years, before Thee, are like yesterday which was gone or like a vigil in the night. Psalm 90(89)

At another site:
In a nutshell, this is what we have:
*Number of ribs in the human being: 24
*Number of chromosomes in the chimp's gametes: 24
*Creation: removal of one rib.
*Evolution: fusion of two chromosomes.
*Rib symbolizes chromosome.
*Removal of one rib = fusion of two chromosomes.
*Number of chromosomes resulting in the gametes: 23 - New species: man, hominid, possibly represented by the female.

One more thing

Australian Shrub Could Be Oldest Life on Earth

10/18/96
*******************************
RELAYED TEXT STARTS HERE:

Australian shrub could be oldest life on Earth
Copyright 1996 by Reuters
10/18/96

MELBOURNE, Australia (Reuter) - Australian scientists said Friday they
had found what might be the world's oldest living organism, a clonally
reproducing, 40,000-year-old shrub growing on a remote mountainside on
the island of Tasmania.

The shrub began life well before the last ice age and now occupies two
secluded river gullies draining a mountain in Tasmania's remote
southwest wilderness area, a senior wildlife official told Reuters.

The shrub, dubbed King's Holly and the only known specimen of Lomatia
tasmania, ranges almost a mile down the gullies and stands up to 26
feet high, said Stephen Harris of the Tasmania Parks and Wildlife
Service.

"It was incredibly exciting," said Harris, who was among a party of
botanists who first explored the mountainside about three years ago to
identify the plant's range.

Scientists assumed then they had found a community of the unique
species but experts in genetics have since painstakingly determined it
is a single plant, he said.

"It's about as definite as you can get," Harris said, adding that the
plant was a sterile species which cloned itself and did not need other
plants to reproduce.

The plant was dated using a fossil found in one of the rainforest
gullies.

"A fossil of an identical specimen has been found near the site in old
gravels and that's been dated at over 40,000 years," Harris said.

"So what it means is that a clonally reproducing, hybrid individual
has existed at the site for at least 40,000 years. This could be the
oldest or one of the oldest organisms on the earth."

The results of the dating and genetic tests were finalized only a few
months ago, he said.

According to the Guinness Book of Records, the oldest plant in the
world is King Clone, a creosote plant clone in California reckoned to
be 11,700 years old.

'nuff said

[edit on 15-7-2007 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by OhZone
If humans evolved from any ape-like creature, why did they evolve as hairless? Earth’s climate has never been 100% compatible with a hairless human.
Also how about those blood sucking insects – the hairless human certainly is at a great disadvantage there wouldn’t you say?
Also the human’s skin is very thin and so is easily damaged in any natural environment.
Ever try just walking thru the woods wearing very little, where there was not trodden path.
Got all scratched up didn’t you?
And then there is the matter of predator animals who would find these hairless humans easily gotten dinner.
Every type of ape/monkey has muscles that are pound for pound several times stronger than those of the human.
No great evolutionary advantage there.
Man “evolving” into such a flimsy creature is illogical.
Do you think god would create such a flimsy creature and put him onto a hostile planet like Earth? Oh, I forget, god created the Earth and all its creatures too. Hmmmm, so why would he want to put his most prized creation in a place like this?

God created us, he just screwed us so it forces us to live off our work and hands, hence pushing us into the advanced life we have today

Gorman, the mutant would have to find a mate that carried the same mutant gene for successful propagation of the mutation. The likelihood of success are not good enough to create a whole new species. I am a long time animal breeder and have some knowledge and experience along these lines. I had a mutant blue-eyed white rabbit – bred it to a mutant pink-eyed rabbit – the result – 3 babies that went back to the base stock – black & white with brown eyes. The way nature works, is that in subsequent generations the whites would still show up, but more and more rarely. There are occasionally mutant albino apes, but they are not proliferating.

I have to wonder why any of you think that there could only be Two possible explanations for the various species of creatures on earth. Why do you limit yourself?
None of our great scientists limited themselves to known popular theories.
Do you also think that in an infinite universe that this Earth is the only place where life as we know it can exist?
Do you think that in an infinite universe that we Earthlings have the most advanced technology?
Would it surprise you to learn that any life throughout this vast universe would have similar form?

I think that the different races of humans were brought here from elsewhere in the universe. I also think that some of them were genetically altered. Take notice that our scientists today are doing much in the way of genetic research and cloning. Do you think it possible that Earth’s scientists are the first to ever do this?

www.lloydpye.com

And you might ask yourself where some of these guys came from:
www.burlingtonnews.net...

Originally posted by Gorman91
Actually yes it does. The universe demands a pattern. A pattern from photons and electrons knowing where to go all the way up to the universes knowing when to split every second for every change, then why must not the pattern continue onto the multiverse and there being a supreme intelligence out there?

Pattern does not equate to intelligence.

'nuff said

I believe man arose from a natural series of events and evolution thereafter. I in no way will ever believe god created this world and us in his image, if so I could not live as an imitation of something and would most likely not want to live if I was. I am the opposite as the thread maker, I look around at nature and I cannot see anything that makes a god seem realistic, it just shoots that idea to the ground. Mutations are a key component of evolution, and the earth is hundreds of millions of years old, and the oldest human remains found are 100% at least a few million years old. We KNOW that!! How can we still be asking if we believe its only 6000 years old!!??

I know something created the universe, but that I don't believe it was a divine power or anything, whatever it was that created it, be it energy or whatever, I guess that qualifies as a creator and I guess it can be called god, but I don't believe its something to be worshipped, nothing will come of it. Though thats a little off topic, I'm sorry. It's where I stand on this subject, and actually plan to spend my life with a career in this field of research.

Pattern does not equate to intelligence.

Nope, but it means some form of intelligence is out there above the multiverse as the pattern must continue. In my personal vision (probably inaccurate) there is a trunk that is God. It is an "out of the limits of time" quantum brain that can be everywhere at the same time. Branching out of this is the universe, and that is constantly branching further out for every single possible senario to arise.

Here, I made a picture of my vision of the multiverse
(crappy, yes, but explains what I mean)

The idea is perfectly in line of my catholic religion, so I'm not yelled at by fellow Christians, and can be adapted to science, so it is indeed a possibility.

Quantum physics shows us a continuing pattern of natural intelligence in the multiverse, so the pattern must continue. Patterns are written everywhere in the multiverse, and must be continued. The periodic table has patterns. Gravity has them, light has them. EVERYTHING has them. And not one is ever broken. At the quantum level they continue only without time limitations. Quantum space is a universe within our universe.

[edit on 15-7-2007 by Gorman91]

[edit on 15-7-2007 by Gorman91]

[edit on 15-7-2007 by Gorman91]

ill bet a lot of people in the world hope that ignorance, in Gods eyes, will be an excuse.

Either:
God made the world
or
The world made itself

In the beginning God....
or
In the beginning,... nothing...

how did everything get here?
why does everything in the earth work together for life to exist?
how can a preacher (Darwin) make a theory as absurd as evolution and make it popular? he wasnt even a scientist!


I do not understand how someone can look outside at everything and deny that there is a designer. The watch has a watchmaker, the skyscraper has a builder, the creation has a creator.

How can something from nothing be the cause of its own existence?

For example, long long ago as reptiles were changing slightly, there was a branch that went off to form early mammals, while the rest of the reptiles stayed as reptiles. The reptiles that stayed as familiar reptiles (over a period of millions more years (grammar?)) started to look more and more like birds, while the mammalian branch was already well on it's way to forming pigs.

Does that make sense? If not, which parts are confusing. Maybe I can clarify a bit for you.

Ok, first of all I wasn't being literal when I said bird and pig. I figured you would get my point. Second of all, I understand why you think what you are saying makes sense. It is a logical observation. However, show me the proof. Where are the fossil records of these slightly mutated species? Surely we have millions of dinosaur fossils, but we can find no fossils of half-mutated species? Why not? How can you conclude they existed if you have no fossil evidence to support your claim? If I am wrong, please explain it to me and I will step back.

Maybe pictures will help