The truth about the Roswell Incident

i could go either way with the whole roswell thing. the only thing that really makes me wonder is how can someone confuse a balloon with anything other than just that... a balloon? how did the term "saucer" get coined from a balloon? two completely different shapes. the initial reports in the papers all got word of "saucers" before it was retracted and the balloon story put in its place. now i belive in ufo's, not nececarily that they are ET's, but the fact that theres alot evidence and testimony that supports saucer shaped aircraft are in fact flying around, too me, supports cover up. but one thing i think we can all agree on is that we will probably never know

Oh my lord!! I wasn't there as were none of you, so I have no clue what happened. For me it's not a matter of more facts to support one or the other. I would want to see which has a bigger impact on one's opinion.

The half truths fed to us by sources in the know. Sure these people were there. Sure they describe things that sure look like earthly design. In the end I cannot ignore the fact that we do not know the motivation for these descriptions. Were they shown bate and switch materials? Were they threatened they have to mislead the public by our own govmt? I keep thinking about the 1997(what was it, the 3rd or4th explanation?) that described test dummies that, and IT IS documented they did not exist yet, that were confused for alien bodies. Kind of reminds me of my mom telling me i'd like THESE peas they are frozen, not like in the can. There is also the fact that the radio and paper reported a flying disc was captured. Kind of irresponsible of our men in uniform eh? So if you want to go by documented proof. I see documentation that states without a doubt a flying disc was captured. I also see documented proof that it wasn't a disc. Confused? Of course you are...we all are. How can you state undoubtedly this stuff is the truth??

Then you take "documented truth" and put it against the claims by the witnesses. Claims that have no proof. Claims that alien bodies were seen, explored and put in caskets. I cannot help but wonder what benefit there is for anyone to come forward with this. I keep thinking about that foil that can be crumpled and form back to normal and withstand high levels of heat. This actually exists in our real world now. Where did it come from? What a coincidence.

In conclusion we see documented fact without knowing the motivation, obvious lies mixed in and even documentation of a disc that was claimed a mistake VS wild claims that are difficult to believeand are not proven till this day.

In my estimation I always lean towards the people I have no reason to believe lied to me or misled me. The documentation posted over and over and disected in this thread does nothing to convince me it was absolutely a balloon thingy. In the same light I cannot say it wasn't but, I don't trust the documentation. I certaintly don't trust posters who claim they are giving the whole truth. Accussing people of only showing things supporting a flying disc while themselves, showing only documentation not exposing the documentation of being tainted. You folks play those games very well yourselves.

Shame on you for pretending to know and misrepresenting what you yourself claim to be misrepresented.

Read a few times it makes sense. I do realise it may be confusing on the first read. Sorry about that...just my thoughts as they were produced relayed to the post directly.

Originally posted by fuzzkill
the only thing that really makes me wonder is how can someone confuse a balloon with anything other than just that... a balloon? how did the term "saucer" get coined from a balloon? two completely different shapes. the initial reports in the papers all got word of "saucers" before it was retracted and the balloon story put in its place.

What you don’t understand I think is the military never said they recovered an alien spaceship! Rancher Mac Brazel is the only one at the time who thought there was anything unusual about it. Just because the headline the press used said “flying saucer” doesn’t mean the military claimed it was an alien spaceship and then changed their mind. The term “flying saucer” was coined by a reporter who misquoted Kenneth Arnold’s sighting two weeks earlier. Most people at the time thought “flying saucers” were something our military or another country was doing. The reason the military “changed their story” to a weather balloon was because the public misunderstood what was said. The reason the debris was flown to Ft. Worth for “positive ID” was because the story went “viral” nationwide and Col. Blanchard, the Roswell base commander, was on leave. They needed to do some "damage control" to set the record straight. There was no official "press release". Lt. Walter Haut screwed up by acting on his own and misleading the press.

If you don’t believe me read the original “press release” for yourself. In the article it calls it an “instrument” twice. Would you call an alien spaceship an instrument?

www.roswellfiles.com...

Yep and the military always has a huge and imposing presence at a balloon crashing. Again...... reporting the facts from your own point of view. The word instrument is subject to your own definition. One might think it's a plane, ballon, how about a guitar!?!? To you instrument means project balloon thingy. To me instrument means, I don't wish to reveal what crashed. Which of course could mean balloon thingy ORRRRR flying disc, but does not automatically, as you would like us to believe, mean balloon project!!!! I love how you just state open and subjective things as pure hard evidence and fact!!! Laughable really.

Originally posted by WAZZIT32
To me instrument means, I don't wish to reveal what crashed.

LOL if they wanted to hide something why bother making a press release at all? Hey I've got an idea! Let's tell the whole world we captured an alien spaceship and then change our minds and make it a weather ballon... nobody will ever suspect a thing! Yeah that's it. Use your head man! At that point the only people who knew about it were Brazel and the Sheriff... wouldn't have been easier to just order some coffins for them?

What I mean is, they really didn't know what they wanted to report until they were ordered to report something specific by a highr power. Along the same lines as your question....Why are we on our 3rd or 4th explanation? Wouldn't it be easier just to stand by the same story rather than make up a new one. Which, they obviously made up due to the, test dummies that didn't exist yet!!!!

fuzzkill,
You are on the right track.

How DID they get "saucer" from a balloon crash ?

Two crash sites.

Thank you for thinking.

Lex

Originally posted by WAZZIT32
What I mean is, they really didn't know what they wanted to report until they were ordered to report something specific by a highr power. Along the same lines as your question....Why are we on our 3rd or 4th explanation? Wouldn't it be easier just to stand by the same story rather than make up a new one. Which, they obviously made up due to the, test dummies that didn't exist yet!!!!

No “higher power” ordered the "press release”! Haut did it on his own. He even said he might have but then he changed his story several times saying he couldn’t remember because it “wasn’t that big of a deal” at the time. Again, the base commander was on leave! The article said it was on authority of Maj. Marcel but that can’t be confirmed because no copy of an “official” press release has ever been found. Haut says he “hand delivered” it and he’s never claimed Maj. Marcel authorized it even though that’s what it says in the paper.

The military didn’t change their story 3 or 4 times! It’s been a crashed balloon the whole time. Like you said they never said exactly what it was the first time, they just called it an “instrument”. The test dummy thing is a HUGE misunderstanding. NOBODY claimed there were alien bodies found in 1947 so where did they come from? The AIr Force sure as hell doesn't know! All the Air Force said is maybe the stories (folklore, rumor, whatever you want to call it) came from the later crash dummy tests and that’s why people said 30 years later they heard about bodies. Maybe they confused that with what happened in 1947. Get it? What’s so ridiculous about that? Sheesh...

Originally posted by Lexion
Two crash sites.

No, now it's three crash sites.

Thanks for playing.

Those damn UFOlogists keep changing their story... first it's one, then it's two, then back to one when Frank Kaufman turned out to be a fraud.. But wait there's more... now it's three. I predict it will be back to one soon... or maybe two if somebody’s 2nd cousin twice removed who was a friend of somebody who’s great grandfather worked at Roswell pipes up with some startling new revelation!

P.S. Happy 4th everyone in the USA! I'm outta here to go blow some stuff up for the grandkids.

[edit on 4-7-2007 by Access Denied]

Are you political figure Access? You sure talk like it. I watched that press conference live. They said, and i'm paraphrasing, he bodies believed to be aliens were actually a specific model of crash dummies used for testing at that time.

You also doublespoke my words for me. You twist it to look like I said it was always called an instrument. I never said any such thing. I only addressed it as you had stated from your supposed superior knowlege. Instrument was used in the release but it was explained to be a weather balloon. In 1997, it was described as a project similair to weather balloons but much more complex and advanced. The story is silly and full of holes.

Again, i'm not trying to prove a spaceship crashed in Roswell, tho I believe it did. That's just one man's opinion. I'm simply showing that you cannot so easily dismiss this case with your thought proccess. It proves nothing. Posting things in such a way as to try and display your intelligence and suggesting everyone else is incapable to use common sense or foolish for showing an interest or possibly believing it was a ship, may bully some into agreeing with you but will not work on the more educated analytical and open minded crowd. I disagree with you not because i'm foolish but because I DO "use my head"!!

Originally posted by WAZZIT32
I disagree with you not because i'm foolish but because I DO "use my head"!!

Fair enough but I’ll let you in on a little secret of mine. That’s what I thought too when I used to think there actually might be something to this whole crazy Roswell thing… that is until some associates of mine I highly respect and consider more educated than myself told me some things I had never heard before. I won’t go into what that was here but I decided to do some serious independent research of my own to try and prove them wrong but I actually ended up finding more evidence to support what they were trying to say then even they had! Go figure. Now instead of just believing I know.

Anyway, for what it’s worth, I'd like to leave you with one last thought…the Truth shall set you free! If you’re as open-minded as you say I suggest you start your journey here if you dare…

The Roswell Files
www.roswellfiles.com...

Later,

AD

Originally posted by yeti101
Hi LogicalThinker, what troubles you about the mogul baloon story?

Hi, yeti101. It doesnt trouble me at all, because it has already been debunked (as I stated in my previous post.)

The explanation(s) doesnt fit with what witnesses have said. Its that simple, really.




[edit on 5-7-2007 by LogicalThinker]

Originally posted by Access Denied
Fair enough but I’ll let you in on a little secret of mine. That’s what I thought too when I used to think there actually might be something to this whole crazy Roswell thing… that is until some associates of mine I highly respect and consider more educated than myself told me some things I had never heard before. I won’t go into what that was here but I decided to do some serious independent research of my own to try and prove them wrong but I actually ended up finding more evidence to support what they were trying to say then even they had!

Reminds me of yeti101 when he said point blank that Stanton Friedman are a hoaxer, a claim he couldnt backup whatsoever of course:

Originally posted by yeti101
Logicalthinker, i have sources in the ufology industry- long time ufo researches (two). Lets just say with what i've been told i am convinced he is part of it.

Access Denied, if you got evidence: don't sing it; bring it.

The Balloon story is so obviously misinformation. Mojor Corso convinced me that Roswell was an alien craft. Along with all the witnesses.

So many stories, leads, witnesses, dubunked or supported..its still yet to be settled..why? I think its because something did crash there and the local authorities, military or civilian just didnt know how to handle such event other than to speak frank on what they saw and reported it as such from jump. I certainly think being a member of the air force myself that if these guys knew the fact that it was a weather balloon or Project Mogul they most likely not have made it such a big deal ( reports to newspapers and radio). Was Mogul TS? Sure, and with all TS sensitive test there is plan in place on how to deal with things if they go awry..certainly not bringing the whole media involved just to say, "see, I told you it was weather balloon!" lookey here at the evidence (debris)...evidence that still supposed to be classified mind you! lol I myself work in intelligence and even going back to 40-50's era, we know whats going up even if its not in our direct responsibility..so for a guy in the good Maj. position (or esp. the Col of the base), he very well could well aware of and 'project' near his arispace and would know how to handle such debris if it failed and landed near his base of operations. Im not certain but based on my experience in both Army and Air Force intel plans of action, there are guidelines we already have set for things like this if they were to happen. PLus, even if it is Top Secret, we wouldn't most likely go out and threaten common city or country folk to keep them hush on something like a weather balloon even if it was to spy on the Soviets...no matter how high tech. But again, I am going on my own knowledge and intuition and logic on this matter..hell i can even be dubunked! lol Oh and its ok to be a skeptic if thats your mission based on what you know, but you gotta remember that everyone sees things different and there's nothing wrong with that either. IMHO, I think the best answers are from those who were there or around those who were (granted they are still alive). I still dont see how a guy can sign an affadavit on his death bed and still be called a hoaxer...just my thought.

JESSE MARCEL JR.'S STORY

I just read the new book by Jesse Marcel, Jr. (was released yesterday), I had an advance copy. It is a must read for anyone interested in Roswell. He does a good job of presenting information that debunks the govt's. official story.
He persents alot of very credible evidence
First of all, and this is REALLY IMPORTANT: Marcel, Sr. was in Army intelligence and had completed radar school 2 yrs. before. He certainly would have known a Mogul balloon or any other kind of balloon if that's what it had been, without any doubt. Secondly, Marcel, Jr. claims that the military made his dad pose with a weather balloon to make the public think that's what it was.
Jr. was 11 at the time, certainly old enough to remember alot of things very clearly. His dad brought home some of the pieces of the crashed object and showed them to his wife and son, Marcel, Jr. Jr. says he remembers that he'd never seen any material like it, and that his dad (an apparently brilliant guy, high up in Army intelligence and a science buff), said "it was not of this earth". His dad was forced by the military to maintain the weather balloon story, something which Jr. felt was a complete insult to his father's spotless record and his intelligence. Not even the higherups in the military knew what it was, so it wasn't a govt. experiment, either.
Really, you have to read the book in order to know the whole story, because Jr. hasn't ever told the whole story before. HE was a flight surgeon in the military and was afraid for his career or other retribution from the military for telling what he feels is the truth.
I believe it was Brazel's daughter who said in a UFO documentary that her father was threatened with his life if he told anyone. There were others who had the same threat, as well.
I'm sure, of course, that there will still be people here who claim it was a weather balloon, but really read the book before you make an uninformed opinion.
I will be interviewing Jesse Marcel, Jr. in 2 weeks. Will report back after I have done so.

Originally posted by forestlady
JESSE MARCEL JR.'S STORY
I just read the new book by Jesse Marcel, Jr. (was released yesterday), I had an advance copy. It is a must read for anyone interested in Roswell. He does a good job of presenting information that debunks the govt's. official story.
I will be interviewing Jesse Marcel, Jr. in 2 weeks. Will report back after I have done so.

Nice post. So the book is out in stores now?

When you interview JM Jr., ask him if he still remembers having some pieces of the wreckage buried under his concrete back porch in the house he was living in when his father brought it over.

[edit on 5-7-2007 by Badge01]

Its ashame we cant do polls on ATS, i'd love to see the % of poeple who beleive in the roswell spaceship.



[edit on 5-7-2007 by yeti101]

One thing that may give you a clue on the Roswell Incident is to research Blanchard's career.

Here's a man on whose watch, and without apparent authorization someone issued a press release that they had captured a flying disc. In addition they had apparently mis-identified a radar target and balloon.

You'll note that nothing was done to Blanchard as a result of this apparent faux pas. In fact Colonel Blanchard would later go on to become a four-star general and Vice Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force.

Ordinarily this would cause a base commander to lose his command and be assigned to a desk, and loss of a grade. But here, it didn't happen.

What does that tell you?

Originally posted by Access Denied

Originally posted by lost_shaman
Amazing how this tape isn't on anything in the pics from Ramey's Office.

Why should they be? Do you see any close-ups of the sticks?

You can see the sticks well enough to see that they are round not squared and that they slide into place rather than being TAPED on to the RAWIN.

That my friend is evidence that we are not looking at the type of RAWIN Charles Moore described! The type he claimed to have used on MOGUL Trains in New Mexico. However, it is identical to those seen in the July 10th Ft. Worth Star Telegram photos taken just down the street from Ramey's Office.

Originally posted by Access Denied

Originally posted by lost_shaman
Better yet its not on the RAWINs that were shown to the Press at Alamogordo July 9th and claimed to be the Property of Watson Labs!!!

So what? Are you claiming they all came from the same lot? If so, prove it.

No! Charles Moore claimed that they were the only ones using RAWINS in New Mexico, and that they brought them from New Jersy and had the Flowery Tape on them. So that shows that Moore is incorrect and/or we are not looking at a RAWIN that was used by Moore on MOGUL Trains.

Originally posted by Access Denied
Explain to me why ALL of the people (except Vernon Brazel who’s never said anything AFAIK) who can actually be proven to have seen the debris gave descriptions of it that are entirely consistent with a crashed Mogul balloon. You can’t.

First, your idea of proven is quite weak. Second, your idea of entire consistent is quite weak. I don't agree with either.

Originally posted by Access Denied

Originally posted by lost_shaman
It doesn't bother you at all that Brazel was taken to the Daily Record by MP's? Or that Brazel doesn't even get the 'Cover story' straight.

Prove he was taken there by MPs. You can’t. Second hand hearsay doesn’t count. Brazel never said he was and neither did Marcel or Cavitt.

Brazel's son certainly said he was.

Originally posted by Access Denied
Tell us LS, how many balloons did that TRAIN have? You’re being disingenuous again. Who says he had to recover all of them and who says his ESTIMATE of the size of ONE BALLOON after it had been sitting out in the hot desert sun for OVER A MONTH has to be 100% correct? Is a RANCHER now supposed to be a meteorological balloon expert?

I'm NOT BEING DISINGENUOUS! Sorry for caps, but it gets old getting called disingenuous everytime I post on this subject!

A MOGUL Train would have around 28, 250 gram, Balloons. These were the same Balloons used in your everyday average weather Balloon that Brazel had found more than once!

Originally posted by Access Denied

Originally posted by lost_shaman
Really? Everything used in MOGUL Trains was off the shelf Weather Balloon gear plus a standard Navy sonobuoy. The only thing TOP SECRET about it was what they wanted to hear with the sonobuoy.

And your point is?

The point is clear AD, noone would have known a MOGUL train was TOP SECRET in anyway unless they knew what the purpose was. It was the purpose that was TOP SECRET not the OTS Weather Balloon gear.

Originally posted by Access Denied

Originally posted by lost_shaman
What about the cash reward offered to people who were finding MOGUL Balloon Trains? If he found a MOGUL Balloon Train and wanted a reward so bad why not collect the reward offered on the REWARD TAG on the MOGUL Train?

Again there were NO TAGS on Dr. People’s CLASSIFIED and unacknowledged service flights. Did you miss my post in the other thread?

Still you haven't figured out that a Service Flight is not a MOGUL Train!

Either we are talking about a MOGUL Balloon train or a Service Flight, two completely different things.

Originally posted by Access Denied

Originally posted by lost_shaman
Right, just like he was staying at the Base for a week afterwards; on vacation?!

Again, prove he was kept there for a week. You can’t. Second hand hearsay doesn’t count. Brazel never said he was and neither did Bessie, Marcel or Cavitt.

Again his son confirmed this.




[edit on 5-7-2007 by lost_shaman]