Challenge to ALL to prove belief.

Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by lilblam
You don't have to believe that it will work, you simply KNOW that it has a high chance of working!

You just described every belief system. I can't KNOW something will work and not believe it also.

KNOWING something has a high probability isn't really knowing anything at all. It's a belief. I KNOW it worked in the past, so I BELIEVE it will work now.

But if it fails to work, then what? Does that mean you were wrong to believe? Imagine that EVERY SINGLE TIME you believe something will work, it fails. Aren't you going to be fed up with belief and just from then on ASSUME NOTHING?

Originally posted by Milk

Originally posted by lilblam

If you know something, then it cannot be wrong unless you were wrong. But if you are wrong, that means you never really knew it in the first place, but assumed you did.

Isnt assuming like believing? If you were positive that you knew something, but ended up not knowing, is it not safe to say that you believed it was true? The definition of assume itself contradicts everything that you have said.

Assume: To believe to be true without knowing. To presume or take for granted.

Believe: To be convinced of, know or feel that an idea or situation or way of behaving is true.

from: The Newbury House Dictionary of American English.
Dont those sound very similar to you?

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by Milk]

Assumptions ARE beliefs Sorry, did I make it seem like I was saying the opposite? I might've gotten confused with all this non stop replying... I'm gonna take a little break.

Sounds a lot like you BELIEVE that "Belief in absolutely anything, for any reason, at any time, is absolutely unnecessary and ignorant."... Do you KNOW that, or do you ASSUME you KNOW that?

Originally posted by TheBandit795

Originally posted by lilblam

That's their mistake. They assume truth based on evidence. Why not have a GOOD CHANCE based on evidence and past knowledge, but not TRUTH. Truth is only ONE, and it's 100% true no matter what. If it is a TON of evidence, it can still be falst in the end! Talks like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck, but it's just me in a duck costume with duck perfume

*Quack!*

These people I'm talking about did exactly what you're talking about. They criticised the wright brothers based on their evidence and past knowledge

I can't rememberthe site right now, but I'll have it for you today or tomorrow.

Well, their past knowledge is that flight is impossible? That nothing heavier than air can fly other than birds? Just because they haven't seen it doesn't make something impossible. They criticized the brothers based on their false preconceptions of what's possible. Again, I reiterate, why assume ANYTHING ever is impossible. That's a belief. If you don't hold to that belief, then anything is possible until proven otherwise. In that case, I can say UFO's are impossible because they do maneuvers that should by OUR KNOWN PHYSICS should splatter the aliens against the wall and make little alien puddles out of them But yet observers keep seeing unbelievable looking stuff. Doesn't make it impossible, just something we didn't yet achieve. Everything is possible! Just because something doesn't conform to our known scientific knowledge doesn't mean it is not logical. Our scientists sometimes assume things as a base and work off of that. Like right now, they may assume that Einstein's Theory of Relativity as a base for research. What if that theory is false? No reason to stop the research, but it's wise to keep in mind that you can be doing research based on a false premise.

Originally posted by Milk
Sounds a lot like you BELIEVE that "Belief in absolutely anything, for any reason, at any time, is absolutely unnecessary and ignorant."... Do you KNOW that, or do you ASSUME you KNOW that?

It can be one of 3 things.

1. It's a belief
2. I know it for fact without doubt.
3. It's a spontaneous idea and I just wanna see if it's true. I hold no belief either way.

So which is it! Well that depends on our definitions of the words "unnecessary" and "ignorant". If I said belief was stupid, that would be my opinion. Unless I meant something by the word stupid that's not ordinarily implied. Sometimes language is a barrier.. so let me see if I can clear it up.

Belief: Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something

Ignorance: A willful neglect or refusal to acquire knowledge.

When you believe something, you refuse to know the truth behind it. You submit to your preconception of what it could possibly be, so you assume it to be true.
So you pick one of the many possibilities that something can be, and believe THAT one is the truth. When in reality, NONE of them may have more chance of being true than any other. There may be more evidence for one or the other, but that just means more evidence. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is indeed true. But belief is to accept it as true based on evidence, because you assume that that was indeed enough evidence to make something true. False assumption, is it not?

That means needless. It's not required. Is it really a requirement to assume something is true based on evidence? When in reality all you may know is that there's this evidence, and there's a CHANCE that it may be true because of the evidence. Doesn't mean it is! So why believe?

You sit in a chair, and the evidence is that you sat in it before and it holds you up. So why believe it will do it again? You have evidence and a probability that based on past experience the chair will hold you up. But you can be wrong. Instead of ASSUMING (believing) that it INDEED WILL hold you up, you can only say that it has a fair chance. But you just don't know. So you sit and find out. So it wasn't really necessary for you to believe it will hold you before you sit in it, because you remember it holding you before so you take a CHANCE and see if it will again. But in reality, you don't know. So why assume!

But we still assume and believe... because it is weird doing things every day and not having any clue as to their success or outcome. That's scary. What if every chair in the world had a 50/50 chance of falling when you sit in it. Would you believe it will fall or would you believe it will remain stable before you sit in it each time? Would you risk and find out? Why believe either way? You know the probability, so you decide whether it is worth for you to take that risk or not. That decision doesn't have to be made on any belief, but simply based on how much you care about your safety and how risky you choose to be. Not belief...

Originally posted by Kano
Hrm, perhaps we can best answer this by following the hypothesis through.

If we run with the hypothesis that there is no time that belief is necessary. It would infer that it is not necessary to believe anything. Would it be possible for us to function if we never believed anything?

It seems fairly obvious that not believing anything would be a rather impossible way to go about your business. It follows that there must be times when it is necessary to believe.

I follow Kano.

Whose fault is it that you cannot function without a daily dose of deception and wishful thinking? Belief...
I can function just fine And many others can also! If Kanos has problems functioning, let him believe. But just because he said that, do you now believe that you WILL ALSO have a problem functioning daily without believing ANYTHING? That may not work for him but I dunno about everyone else. It all depends on what you really want. Do you only want truth and to live your life in truth without assumptions and preconceptions. Or do you prefer a blissful existance in a heavenly type place but based on a big lie. Well that's a choice everyone will have to make for themselves. But that doesn't mean those who choose a lie aren't ignorant. Belief is STILL ignorant, but ignorance IS a viable choice for people. If you belief something, why would you argue that you are not ignorant. If one basically leads to the other. So you prefer to believe stuff but hate when people call you gullible? Well tough

Then you are lying to yourself about what you really are. I too am ignorant sometimes and make assumptions, but I TRY to avoid it. It was a habit as it is with everyone else on this planet. I realized the futility of it recently, and my personal choice was to DENY IGNORANCE. Speaking of which, what was this website's slogan again?

Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa

Originally posted by Kano
Hrm, perhaps we can best answer this by following the hypothesis through.

If we run with the hypothesis that there is no time that belief is necessary. It would infer that it is not necessary to believe anything. Would it be possible for us to function if we never believed anything?

It seems fairly obvious that not believing anything would be a rather impossible way to go about your business. It follows that there must be times when it is necessary to believe.

I follow Kano.

Look at your signature! Ignorance is the way to happiness! But happiness IS the way. If you want to be happy, BE happy. No need to come up with beliefs and reasons to be happy. No need to lie to yourself that something is safe, to satisfy your insecurity of not really knowing. Well it's your choice anyway!

Prove belief? Can you say Oxymoron? It is futile to try to prove anything to someone who won't "believe" in anything. However, the exercise is valuable so I'll indulge.

Belief's are something that are built on prior experience. I don't go petting Grizzly bears, because although I have never seen one, other people have shared with me that it will likely maul me or injure me in some way. I also don't stick my hand on a hot stove burner, because prior experience shows that this is painful. If I am unfamiliar with something due to lack of prior experience, I will openly investigate. Other's will retract through fear of the unknown.

Your approach to "belief" seems to be built on some kind of concept of separation from experience which again doesn't make sense. Our beliefs are built upon our experience (at all levels). Sometimes there are experiences that occur that are completely internalized and subjective. I can only share with you how GOD or some experience has changed my life, but you have to open yourself up to the possibility for YOU to experience something similar. It'll never be exactly the same for two separate people or even an individual. Also, you're "belief" in what I tell you is based upon our relationship. You trust those which you know have spoken truthfully to you in the past or are known to do so and hence believe them. Beliefs direct us. They are the root of the decisions we make (mostly subconsciously). You HAVE TO BELIEVE to even be on this messageboard. If you had no belief, no action would be possible for action is belief manifested.

I do like the fact that you're thinking about this though. Keep searching... but try to do so with an open mind and honest heart. Eventually you end up where you're supposed to (IMHO). May I suggest you try something experientially? Try doing something based totally on Faith... the highest form of trust. Try opening your heart to GOD and see what He speaks to you in your heart. Good luck in your search

Peace,

+Jammer

so you do not "believe" that belief is necessary? you also "believe" that logic can overcome this process of belief, right? all you're doing here is trying to out do yourself!

Originally posted by lilblam
You know though, based on evidence that I have, this whole belief thing is a system of purposeful control. The controllers are creating spirituality, new age, religions, other beliefs, and set them slightly different to allow for opposition. They require humanity to be in blind belief and to be DEVOID of any TRUTH. And anyone who argues for LACK OF TRUTH but instead thinks DECEPTION AND LIES are important, I'd have to beg to differ.

Question: Belief is blind faith in someone's statement or an idea that is not based necessarily on any evidence. Sure it can have evidence, but does that merit for belief? The reality of our world with the controllers is NOT my belief, it just is a logical deduction based on observation and research, and also it can be TOTALLY WRONG. It is a possibility, just like the inventor of a lightbulb was doing calculations and saw a possibility and had an idea. He didn't BELIEVE that the lightbulb would necessarily 100% work as he expected, but he had plenty of evidence to suggest it MIGHT. Why do I need to believe anything when I can just research and see where things lead? Why assume I found the answer!

For example: Scientists see the universe expanding so they say it might've started with the Big Bang. That's a theory, an assumption. It's not a belief, it's a logical deduction based on observation. They are not claiming THAT IS what it truly is, they just said that BASED ON OUR EVIDENCE that is a POSSIBILITY. That is all I say. There are many possibilities and some have more evidence than others. Some things are completely 100% known to be true without exception. Others are only backed up by evidence.

Sadly, many things are assumped to be true without any possible evidence, and they have an ARMY of people backing this up. Religion. They are composed of people who KNOW it's a deception but promote it for the sake of getting rich, and others who truly believe it, but without any reason.

Who do you think is smarter, the people who KNOW for a fact that religion is based on lie sandwiches, or those who believe it's true and live their life by it and pray to their invisible God. I'm not asking who is right, but who indeed is wiser.

It's not a matter of who is wiser. It's a matter of perception, and whose perception is flawed. Obviously, both believers of god and non-believers can't both be correct. Wisdom has nothing to do with that, just as wisdom has nothing to do with the reason some people are retarded. I've come to believe it's not a choice, but the type of person. Some people, even though they're raised from birth in the religious brainwashing environment, still come to their senses and realize that there is no god. Of course, this usually takes something so drastic and traumatizing that they can't forgive god, or can't believe their loving god would allow something so horrible to happen. Others, like myself, never bought into it from the day they figured out there was no Santa. The only thing that appears to separate these two types of people, is inner strength. The non-believers carry enough inner strength of their own. Believers must rely on outside resources for their strength. Interestingly enough, I've noticed that believers are also the type of people that panic under pressure, or lose their cool during a stressful situation, such as a heated argument. It must be an emotional difference. They lack something, IMO.

Originally posted by jammerman
Prove belief? Can you say Oxymoron? It is futile to try to prove anything to someone who won't "believe" in anything. However, the exercise is valuable so I'll indulge.

Belief's are something that are built on prior experience. I don't go petting Grizzly bears, because although I have never seen one, other people have shared with me that it will likely maul me or injure me in some way. I also don't stick my hand on a hot stove burner, because prior experience shows that this is painful. If I am unfamiliar with something due to lack of prior experience, I will openly investigate. Other's will retract through fear of the unknown.

Your approach to "belief" seems to be built on some kind of concept of separation from experience which again doesn't make sense. Our beliefs are built upon our experience (at all levels). Sometimes there are experiences that occur that are completely internalized and subjective. I can only share with you how GOD or some experience has changed my life, but you have to open yourself up to the possibility for YOU to experience something similar. It'll never be exactly the same for two separate people or even an individual. Also, you're "belief" in what I tell you is based upon our relationship. You trust those which you know have spoken truthfully to you in the past or are known to do so and hence believe them. Beliefs direct us. They are the root of the decisions we make (mostly subconsciously). You HAVE TO BELIEVE to even be on this messageboard. If you had no belief, no action would be possible for action is belief manifested.

I do like the fact that you're thinking about this though. Keep searching... but try to do so with an open mind and honest heart. Eventually you end up where you're supposed to (IMHO). May I suggest you try something experientially? Try doing something based totally on Faith... the highest form of trust. Try opening your heart to GOD and see what He speaks to you in your heart. Good luck in your search

Peace,

+Jammer

That's a nice argument! Thanks for the kind thoughts too
By proving belief I meant prove it's not pure ignorance. Don't get hung up on the Title, it's more of a headline type of thing. Just to get people curious

Our society WORKS because of belief/trust. If you eliminate both, the society crumbles and DRASTIC changes occur. So from the perspective of our current world, belief is necessary. To have family, friends and all that.. trust seems to be necessary too. If you didn't trust anyone, the term "friend" would start to mean less and less. But friendship and love and family are all just pieces of our own society. They are not objective truths. Just something we are attached to and used to. Things that I am trying to lose. Truth does set you free, Jesus apparently said. So does that mean that once you discover truth, you no longer fit in the society because you're not only a complete outcast, you are considered an immoral, unloving, and belief-free scum of society. You have no friends, and you don't love your family. All you do all day is search for truth, and don't let emotion rule you. You never argue, but never demand or ask anyone for anything. You just search for truth. You help others if requested, but only if the request is to find objective truth. Why would you help someone dig deeper into ignorance if your goal is only honesty, truth, and knowledge! So yes I might someday die simply because of my search for truth, but I welcome death. When I look at this world objectively, it is greedy and full of illusions. It IS an illusion. All our values and stuff that we cherish are lies. We are controlled by our emotions and preconceptions and beliefs. No wonder so many people feel it is all necessary and feel confused/lost without them. Because they would NOT be able to function in this world. Well I no longer choose to fit into this world. I deny ignorance. This world is based on ignorance. My "punishment" or "Hell" would be to live another life on a similar planet enshrouded in fear, ignorance, and illusions of love/friendship and other things. I hate no one. I have NO problems with anyone. I let people do whatever the hell they want, without me judging them. I do sometimes question them and ask them why they do it, to see if maybe they want to wake up but need someone to help them. If they reject me and tell me I'm crazy, I wave and move on. So this forum is my attempt to see if anyone is awake enough yet. Apparently, out of all comments, maybe like 1% seems to be awake at MOST. Well, the awakening process is only beginning.

Now think:

We have a nuclear terrorist attack and WWIII insues. Your family is killed, and you are being hunted like in Terminator future world scenario. All the values of our deceptive society crumble, and only survival is left. But THAT is also not something I care about. I don't care about my physical life as something to cherish. It is just lessons, and often painful ones. Why painful? Because I learned that this whole world is a lie, and my life was based on it. It is NOT easy to get out of something that you were subjected to since brith and everyone else around you takes for granted. But such is my choice, as I only want truth. Some will understand this. Others won't even read it. Yet others will call me crazy. Oh well such is life and its infinite variety of opinions. To each his own eh

lol and don't get hung up on the fact that I mentioned Jesus as something to contradict my argument. Anyone coulda said it, truth DOES set you free. It's just I remember people attributing this quote to him! I dunno who said it. The stuff Jesus says in the Bible sometimes is very wise, but there's also many lies added in. Just certain parts DO teach you. But the common interpretations of religious doctrines are often in ignorance and mistaken. If Jesus's message ever clearly got across, religion and belief would NEVER exist on this planet. But such was NOT the desire of our controllers. Ah well...

I gotta love forums such as this though. It at least is open and everyone can speculate without being bashed too much. There's a good amount of respect for crazy ideas also, and out of the box thinking sometimes does happen here too! This forum is something that resembles what USA stands for, until of course all that has been taken away. Hey at least this forum still has freedom of speech right! Woooo.. piece of freedom left on this planet... and they DO want to govern the internet eventually. This may not last either. Scary, no?

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by lilblam]

You'll never find an atheist in a fox hole. Proof enough!

The old saying is bull#. Same old tired rhetoric that assumes everyone is afraid of dying. Some people don't fear death.

I live in a foxhole Ok not really. But I could!

ive not read the entire thread because i didnt feel the need too.

i know what i know.

Originally posted by lilblam

And that's the problem isn't it? Why does evidence have to convince you of truth?

??? Are you saying that having evidence doesn't mean it's true???

Just see stuff for what it is, EVIDENCE. And POSSIBILITIES. But why assume it's true!

How much evidence did it take to convince someone that God exists? Imagine how much evidence it could take to convince them afterwards that God, infact, does NOT exist. That's almost impossible for some people after their belief is strong enough. Belief tends to ignore evidence to the contrary!

What if science does find out that God does exists?