Challenge to ALL to prove belief.

This arguing back and forth about existance of God on my other thread led to nowhere and didn't seem to change anyone's mind on the matter. Here's a better way, and this is for anyone reading this.

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Belief in absolutely anything, for any reason, at any time, is absolutely unnecessary and ignorant.
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I'd like someone to come up with an EXAMPLE of when belief is NECESSARY, so I can see if I can show them that their reason for that is false. Also, how about an example where belief is even BENEFICIAL! I'll also try to prove otherwise. Let's see if anyone can also give me a REASON to believe in anything EVER, that is valid. I'll see if I can prove that this reason is indeed, invalid.

My goal of this post is to demonstrate the futility and completely absurdity of any belief for any reason whatsoever. I don't want to argue, that's pointless. I will just state a logical assessment and wait for a rebuttal. Anything goes!

Oh, and trying to convert me to your side by calling "lost and confused" and "astray from God" will NOT win you any points! I suggest you save your energy for some useful input on this thread, but ultimately what you say is up to you, as always.

This challenge is to everyone, so everyone who doesn't agree with my statement can argue against it. If anyone DOES agree, and wants to HELP ME debate this, PLEASE FEEL FREE!

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I'd use the debate forum, but this is FAR less restricting and open to editing and correcting yourself and doesn't impose limits. Use as many websites/links to prove your point as you like! So let the games begin!

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by lilblam]

Why would believe be a bad thing? And why will it not be benificial?

Looking at psychiatrists and their clients you have to say it is a lot believing in something which makes those people feel happy once again. After losing a loved one believing he or she goes to heaven is something which helps some persons to keep on going with their lives, to be more happy. The fact that it might not be true doesn't matter, they are more happy, that's what counts.

Humans are made to survive, believing in something increases the chances of survival.

I belive in myself and thats about it

Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa
Why would believe be a bad thing? And why will it not be benificial?

Looking at psychiatrists and their clients you have to say it is a lot believing in something which makes those people feel happy once again. After losing a loved one believing he or she goes to heaven is something which helps some persons to keep on going with their lives, to be more happy. The fact that it might not be true doesn't matter, they are more happy, that's what counts.

Humans are made to survive, believing in something increases the chances of survival.

Believing in something decreases you chances of survival. I believe the lions are friendly, so I'll just go pet one. I don't care about the truth, it makes me feel HAPPY to believe they are friendly. Believing something is giving up the TRUTH for a fantasy, and can NOT increase the survival of a logical, intelligent species, except bring their ultimate doom due to lack of knowledge and replacement of it with belief!

Originally posted by lilblam
Here's a better way, and this is for anyone reading this.

************
Belief in absolutely anything, for any reason, at any time, is absolutely unnecessary and ignorant.
************

I'd like someone to come up with an EXAMPLE of when belief is NECESSARY

Belief is necessary much more frequently than you would believe.
The human psyche fuels belief. Every person likes to think that he has a purpose in life and perhaps beyond. Without a belief you become a hollow shell.

Stating that you do not believe in God is a belief in itself!!!

Originally posted by Amuk
I belive in myself and thats about it

You believe in yourself? But you know you exist, on at least some level, as you do have a consciousness. If you know something, why would you also need to believe it?

If you mean you are sure of yourself, that just simply means you give yourself a high probability of success in you endeavors based on past experience of same endeavors. Where does belief play into any of this?

Originally posted by Leveller
Belief is necessary much more frequently than you would believe.
The human psyche fuels belief. Every person likes to think that he has a purpose in life and perhaps beyond. Without a belief you become a hollow shell.

Stating that you do not believe in God is a belief in itself!!!

You just said it's necessary, but didn't say why!
Yes, every person likes to think many things, and I never said we don't LIKE to believe and pretend etc, but all I argue is that it's ignorant and a complete waste of time.

Without belief you are not a hollow shell. Doesn't BELIEF make you a hollow shell? Instead of receiving true knowledge, you replace it with FAKE knowledge (belief) and therefore you THINK you know something but in reality your knowledge bank is empty. Therefore, you are a hollow shell.

Stating that you do not believe in God is not a belief. When I state I don't believe in anything, you reverse this on me and claim "that means you are saying you believe in NOT believing in anything". Does that really make sense to you? I do NOT believe in anything, including God. It's not my belief. It's a lack of belief.

You cannot debate blind faith...it's like ramming your head against a brick wall. In the end, the wall will still be there, solid as ever, and you'll just be sore in the head....

I don't want to argue, that's pointless

Arguing is never pointless. Both sides have a point. Their point is to convince the opponent that they are correct.

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by Gazrok]

In that case, I'll just wear a helmet!

Originally posted by Gazrok
You cannot debate blind faith...it's like ramming your head against a brick wall. In the end, the wall will still be there, solid as ever, and you'll just be sore in the head....

I don't want to argue, that's pointless

Arguing is never pointless. Both sides have a point. Their point is to convince the opponent that they are correct.

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by Gazrok]

And besides, I'm not using faith to combat faith. I use logic. If they fail to argue with logic and bring faith into the debate saying "you won't understand because you don't have faith", they automatically lose. It's like saying: In order to understand why you need belief you need to first have belief, but since you have no belief you can never argue against those who do. Therefore you lose.

That's completely absurd and lacking any logic. It's circular logic. "I eat because I am unhappy, and I am unhappy because I eat". You can't argue with someone hung up on logic like that. But anyone in their right mind will see that argument/logic as futile and realise the person's defeat!

Let me clarify. By "arguing" I meant calling each other "WRONG" or "dumb" and calling themselves "smarter and correct". I meant bickering. Bad choice of words

Believing in something decreases you chances of survival. I believe the lions are friendly, so I'll just go pet one. I don't care about the truth, it makes me feel HAPPY to believe they are friendly. Believing something is giving up the TRUTH for a fantasy, and can NOT increase the survival of a logical, intelligent species, except bring their ultimate doom due to lack of knowledge and replacement of it with belief!

That's not true at all. Truth makes people kill themselves sometimes, giving them something to believe in makes them give something to live for, fantasy or not, they stay alive. That's also why psychiatrists aren't out of a job yet.

Truth doesn't help the actions which flow out of the handlings which the mind makes (killing the being), fantasy let's it sometimes stay alive (the actions don't take place).

Sorry Liblam

You just said it's necessary, but didn't say why!
Yes, every person likes to think many things, and I never said we don't LIKE to believe and pretend etc, but all I argue is that it's ignorant and a complete waste of time.

Only already that you say people like to believe says already it does something good.

Where does belief play into any of this?

IU guess what I mean is that too many people are waiting and loking for god or the government or prince charming or dr, phil to save them when the answer is in them.

If people would quit whining and looking for some one or something to save them and stand up on there own two feet they would not need this crap

Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa
That's not true at all. Truth makes people kill themselves sometimes, giving them something to believe in makes them give something to live for, fantasy or not, they stay alive. That's also why psychiatrists aren't out of a job yet.

Truth doesn't help the actions which flow out of the handlings which the mind makes (killing the being), fantasy let's it sometimes stay alive (the actions don't take place).

First of all, you're saying believing lions are safe and approaching them and then getting eaten is NOT true at all? Or which part?

Truth makes people kill themselves, but so does belief. Just as often. Lies and deception can upset people so much they commit suicide and kill others, much more often than truth will provoke a similar action. Gimme examples

So if they are living in deception/lies/belief, they have a reason to live. As soon as truth comes out, they all of a sudden realize they don't need to live at all and become depressed/suicidal? So you are saying that truth is dangerous while belief is safe?

I never said there aren't professions based on deceiving and lying to people. Look at our government. But why do you think belief is necessary. Because truth makes people suicidal? Are you sure about that? How does it manage to do that exactly?

And besides, I'm not using faith to combat faith. I use logic. If they fail to argue with logic and bring faith into the debate saying "you won't understand because you don't have faith", they automatically lose. It's like saying: In order to understand why you need belief you need to first have belief, but since you have no belief you can never argue against those who do. Therefore you lose.

Ahh, but isn't reality itself a "belief"? We have 5 known senses. All that we know about the universe, comes from these 5 senses alone, and our own beliefs, of what these signals from these senses mean. How do we know if we are interpretting them correctly. Just as some animals can only see in black and white, to them, color doesn't even exist as a concept. Likewise, we may be seeing something as green, when it is really blue for all we know, in reality.

We "believe" ourselves to be solid, when in fact, we are mostly empty space. It is only our relative density to the density of objects we touch, that gives the illusion of solidity. One could argue, that belief, is logical, as in essence, our beliefs are the only things we are using to describe the universe around us. There may be many more "real" things in the universe that we can't sense with just our 5 senses.....but we'd never know of them, just as the dog has no idea what "blue" is...

Just as a btw....I do not "believe" in God. I am simply arguing that belief in and of itself, is not neccesarily illogical.

lilblam,
I can agree with some of your arguement, but I can certainly, as others will also, contend that you are using alot of absolutism in your decrees.
Example:
"Believing in something decreases you chances of survival."

Care to provide in evidences or hard data that backs this 'absolute' statement up?
The principle of 'belief' has been with man since the dawn of time/man. It is virtually engrained in our engrams, brain functions.....it has been proven to separate man from beasts, etc. Yet, because 'we' are so advanced, so superior, 'we' can now state and assert that 'belief' is not needed any more, that it simply is a weakness, etc.?
Oh contrar.......
'Belief' and 'beliefs' will continue to be apart of man till the day that man, as an entity, ceases to exist. This is not dependent on intelligence nor superiority....it needs no hard data to state and verify this....the prinicple of 'belief' exists, has existed, and will continue to exist, and in a variety of forms, despite those who contend that 'belief' is not required or is an illusion.




regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Amuk

Where does belief play into any of this?

IU guess what I mean is that too many people are waiting and loking for god or the government or prince charming or dr, phil to save them when the answer is in them.

If people would quit whining and looking for some one or something to save them and stand up on there own two feet they would not need this crap

That's what I'm going to prove here Belief is totally useless and is shrouded in blind ignorance. Any belief for any reason at all at any time. Period. No exceptions!

Liblam change your topictitle please.

Originally posted by Seekerof
lilblam,
I can agree with some of your arguement, but I can certainly, as others will also, contend that you are using alot of absolutism in your decrees.
Example:
"Believing in something decreases you chances of survival."

Care to provide in evidences or hard data that backs this 'absolute' statement up?
The principle of 'belief' has been with man since the dawn of time/man. It is virtually engrained in our engrams, brain functions.....it has been proven to separate man from beasts, etc. Yet, because 'we' are so advanced, so superior, 'we' can now state and assert that 'belief' is not needed any more, that it simply is a weakness, etc.?
Oh contrar.......
'Belief' and 'beliefs' will continue to be apart of man till the day that man, as an entity, ceases to exist. This is not dependent on intelligence nor superiority....it needs no hard data to state and verify this....the prinicple of 'belief' exists, has existed, and will continue to exist, and in a variety of forms, despite those who contend that 'belief' is not required or is an illusion.




regards
seekerof

When I said that it decreases your chances of survival, that was a direct reply to someone who just as blatantly stated "It increases your chances of survival". I gave an example with the lions. Anytime you believe something is safe but inreality it is not, you are indangerd. If you believe something is dangerous while in reality it is safe, you are a fool.

Also, you didn't argue with me in your post. You just said that belief always existed and always will exist. That does NOTHING to show if belief is needed or not. I'm not arguing whether humans will lose belief, because I understand their need for satisfying their minds with illusions and conceptions of some God who watches over them like babies. It is sometimes a scary thought of being completely alone and having no God around to bathe you in love and light. Not many people can handle it, I admit. BUT....

Again, you offer no reason for why belief is at all necessary at any time for anyone on this planet.