Su-30MKI and Eurofighter to cross swords at air exercise in England

Waddington 07 on Youtube:

EDIT: I'm sure some of the Brits here must've gone to Waddington for this?!

That was always the plan Daedalus but I never made it. Sorry for letting you guys down but, I don't know if you got to see any of this on the TV news, we've had other things on our minds in Rotherham lately.

Wow, something
interesting happened
in Rotherham!

I was fortunate as I live on high ground but travelling was out of the question. Bloody weather!

[edit on 8-7-2007 by waynos]

Originally posted by waynos
That was always the plan Daedalus but I never made it. Sorry for letting you guys down but, I don't know if you got to see any of this on the TV news, we've had other things on our minds in Rotherham lately.

Wow, something
interesting happened
in Rotherham!

I was fortunate as I live on high ground but travelling was out of the question. Bloody weather!

[edit on 8-7-2007 by waynos]

Whoa there!
That's quite a problem there.
Hope all is well.

MKI hometown, Pune, is being hit by heavy monsoon weather too.

Its great to see, I loved growing up there on the base. I wonder how long it will be untill we get any answers to the ef2000 vs Su35 might make a great read

WoW, What a great picture :
img441.imageshack.us...


This one took my breath away:
www.bharat-rakshak.com...



Pics in pgs 2 and 3 are as good as they can possibly get >> forum.keypublishing.co.uk...

Man, the stuff from this article is just ravishing. Two of the sexiest aircraft in the world are going head-to-head. It's a shame that they aren't yet releasing results, though, I was hoping for some hard facts. From the sounds of the articles currently out there it sounds as though the MKIs acquitted themselves quite well and that it was actually fairly even.

Well the curtians have been drawn, but there are no signs of the results.

INDRADHANUSH-2007 DRAWS TO A CLOSE AT UK
Curtains were finally drawn on the second bilateral Indo-UK air exercise - Indradhanush 2007, which concluded on a high note here at Royal Air Force (RAF) Waddington on Thursday.

The exercise that began with a series of 1vs1 sorties, reached its crescendo with a highly complex conceivable scenario - a 6vs6 aerial combat involving 4 x Su-30 MKIs, 4 x F3 Tornadoes, 2 x Typhoons and 2 x GR9 Sea Harriers of the Royal Navy. Also airborne were an IL-78 MKI air-to-air refueller and an E3D Sentry AWACS aircraft in the vicinity of the exercise.

The visit by the IAF team also coincided with the Waddington International Air Show and the Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) at Fairford, within a span of two weeks. IAF participation at the two events were a coup of sorts for the organisers. Having been adjudged the 'best static display' at Waddington air show, expectations are already soaring high at the RIAT, the world's biggest air show.

The exercise wasn't about winners or losers, yet both sides ended on a winning note. "It was an excellent learning curve for our pilots who will go back with a lot of experience" said the Indian Air Chief. He also thanked the Government and the RAF in England for hosting the IAF. The RAF C-in-C termed the exercise as an 'outstanding success'.

Earlier, Station Commander RAF Leeming, Group Captain E Stringer while briefing the visiting CAS stated that the |RAF had adopted a 'building-block' approach to meet future IAF training and coalition aspirations. "The exercise achieved all its aims and objectives" - he further stated. Summing up on the RAF experience he said that a major outcome of the exercise was the appreciation of the fact that the two Air Forces actually "see the world through similar eyes", and that there were many "commonalities" in the tactical procedures of the two air forces, thereby laying a foundation for further RAF-IAF interactions.

full article @ pib.nic.in...


Wishing for more such exercises between top end fighters in the near future ...

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Well the curtians have been drawn, but there are no signs of the results.

Sigh!! Will we ever get to know the results? Probably no, as nobody wants to get embarrassed!! Like what happened at Agra!! Ooops!

Cheers!

[edit on 15-7-2007 by mikesingh]

Originally posted by Darkpr0
Man, the stuff from this article is just ravishing. Two of the sexiest aircraft in the world are going head-to-head. It's a shame that they aren't yet releasing results, though, I was hoping for some hard facts. From the sounds of the articles currently out there it sounds as though the MKIs acquitted themselves quite well and that it was actually fairly even.

Which article?

Or do you mean this thread?


MikeSingh,

I think everybody learnt from the PR disaster (I'm sure we can all call it that) of Cope India 04/05.

It was never meant to show who or what was better. What happened behind the scenes was never meant for publci ears.
However it was the first Indo-US exercise and the first meeting of the East's operational best vs. the West's operational best(w/o AESA granted).


[edit on 15-7-2007 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Which article?

This one:

Article 1

And this one

Article 2

Since they're not releasing any results, it seems that neither side blew the other out of the water. If they did, we'd probably have heard about it pretty darn pronto.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
However it was the first Indo-US exercise and the first meeting of the East's operational best vs. the West's operational best(w/o AESA granted).

Yeah! Exploiting capabilities with the AESA would've have separated the men from the boys, what?! Was it used in the latest exercise?

Cheers!

according to my most recent reading matter current AESA sets (of whoever) are not all they are cracked up to be.

AESA is definitely more advanced and is the future of airborne radar but all fighters currently equipped with them are bedevilled by problems with regard to funcionality and reliability. To quote the article in question (Air Internationals comparison of the Rafale and Typhoon - June 2007) "the decision by the Eurofighter partners to introduce the the Typhoon into service with an M-scan CAPTOR and upgrade it to AESA at a future date has been proven unquestionably to be the right one based on the reliability recod of the CAPTOR compared with all current AESA sets".

Maybe this is why AESA wasn't deployed by the IAF for the exercise?

Originally posted by waynos
Maybe this is why AESA wasn't deployed by the IAF for the exercise?

I'm not entirely sure of that. MiG 35 is the closest thing with AESA, and India does not have any of those. I had for some reason thought that Su-30 MKI had the N011M Bars PESA and was soon to be upgraded with the Irbis, also a PESA. I could be wrong though, reports on both of these radars are a tad iffy.

Originally posted by waynos
according to my most recent reading matter current AESA sets (of whoever) are not all they are cracked up to be.

I'm not sure of the issues Europe is having with it's AESA program but the capability difference between AESA and M-Scan is worlds apart. AESA radars are getting cheaper, lighter and more efficient and there are no reliability problems that I'm aware of regarding US fighter AESA radars.

[edit on 17-7-2007 by WestPoint23]

Ok.. I'm totally confused here.

India does not field AESA a/c.. The best is the N011M PESA soon to be replaced by the more powerful and electroncally superior Irbis PESA.That is,if the Ruskies don't go lame on the deal;they've been doing a lot of that to us lately

So what's all the AESA confusion about here?

So what's all the AESA confusion about here?

That would probably be me making a leap Daedalus. When you mentioned there being no AESA, mikesingh responded with his comment, I simply assumed he knew what he was talking about and that India had AESA equipment but was not fielding it out of choice. I was seeking to find an explanation for such a choice, my mistake.

Westy;

I'm not sure of the issues Europe is having with it's AESA program but the capability difference between AESA and M-Scan is worlds apart. AESA radars are getting cheaper, lighter and more efficient and there are no reliability problems that I'm aware of regarding US fighter AESA radars.

This was not just a reference to European AESA technology and it specifically mentions the current USAF F-15C trials unit (where the M-scan APG-63 is still considered operationally superior, the block 2 F/A-18E/F and Mitsubishi F-2 as all experiencing recurrent cooling, performance and reliability issues.

Clearly these are teething troubles and will be resolved but it just makes the point that the CAPTOR is better as it is for now.

When comparing these AESA units with the Rafale's PESA unit (also suffering cooling and weight problems) and the CAPTOR it is claimed that CAPTOR has a more reliable and flexible antenna and gives 'significantly better performance' by dint of it being an extremely advanced radar in its own right but equipped with a proven a familiar scanner type, CAESAR, planned for future upgrade to Typhoons is after all just a CAPTOR with an AESA scanner fitted as that is already one of the worlds very best radars and the new scanner is fully compatible with the 'back end' and software of the radars already in use.

I know all the publicity and websites relating AESA cite the better performance and reliability of these scanners and these are benefits that will come, but it is still a very new technology and the article merely refers to the real life situation as it currently stands. Nothing new works perfectly straight away.

[edit on 17-7-2007 by waynos]

OK, my fault for that red herring! But an Indian AESA (with some form of 64 bit Core Avoinic Computer) in the next 5 years is not so unthinkable given the work done by CABS/LRDE on the LCA MMR and AEW.

Cheers!

Wayos, I believe you are basing your view of AESA radars on what "experts" with a clear bias and agenda (ie. Jon Lake) and no first hand knowledge have to say. I'm quite family with this issue as it originally started when a French publication heavily criticized the PESA (RBE2) radar of the Rafael due to a multitude of problems that it has, and is experiencing. Near the same time as this publication the Rafael apparently took part in an exercise against USN Super Hornets equipped with the M-Scan AN/APG-73 radar. They performed poorly against the Rhino and this prompted several other defense writes namely Jon Lake to claim that M-Scan was far superior to electronically scanned radars. This is simply not true, there are no reliability problems with matured US AESA radars nor are there any great capabilities that M-Scan offers over AESA. The new AN/APG-79 on the Block II+ Hornet is currently experiencing some glitches because the software that will enhance and upgrade it's capabilities has not yet been fully developed. However this is a software issue which virtually every new AESA goes through, it is not some inherent problem (reliability, heat etc..) of AESA radars that cannot be overcome. Even the original AN/APG-77 was limited until it recently got new software and a new design (AN/APG-77(v)1) which enhanced it's capabilities and eliminated any cooling problems. You can bet the AN/APG-63(V2,3,4)/79/80/81 which all came after the APG-77 was developed will not, and do not have any such problems.

Now if you can provide me with some sources that back up these claims of unreliably and problems regarding American AESA I would greatly appreciate it. As I said above apart from the Super Hornet’s new radar which is not yet fully developed there are no major problems with the other AESA radar sets in the USAF’s current and future inventory.

Source

Now to quote my favorite first hand source. Courtesy of "Dozer"...

OK I'm no expert on other a/c radar systems....but I'm moderately smart on the Eagle / Raptor radar, I have 2000 hours with the F-15's radar, including V0, V1 and V2. And a little over 500 hours in the F-22 with it's radar, V0 and V1 (if you want to call them that). There is absolutely NO comparison to a mechanically scanned arrays performance and an AESA. AESA wins that competition hands down. The MSA is a great radar, we've added lots of capability over the years, but it just can't compare with the advantages brought by an AESA, I could write a few paragraphs just on the pros & cons (not many cons to a good AESA). If someone had a bad experience its due to other factors (poor design, early software, etc etc). The AESA's we currently have in the Eagle and Raptor, to include the V3 I've flown "with" on the Eagles in exercises, are absolutely phenomenal.

Wayos, I believe you are basing your view of AESA radars on what "experts" with a clear bias and agenda (ie. Jon Lake)

Well, yes Jon Lake did write the article in question, but I don't see the 'bias and agenda' that you are referring to. Nowhere is it stated that AESA radars are inferior to M-Scan (exactly the opposite in fact!) only that the decision was right for the Typhoon, given the immaturity of AESA technology and the actual (and expected) problems encountered in first introducing it, he does not question at all that the move to AESA scanners is the right one, but just not yet in this aeroplane and, given the expensive delays with much of the advanced tech it has I cannot disagree.

Jon Lake to claim that M-Scan was far superior to electronically scanned radars

But, here at least, he hasn't. He says actually that it is a most important development that just requires a little more time.

there are no reliability problems with matured US AESA radars nor are there any great capabilities that M-Scan offers over AESA.

But there are no matured US AESA scanners are there? the F-15, SH and F-22 are all available in quite limited numbers with this equipment as it is so new. Also it is not claimed that M-Scan has greater capabilities, only that it is a familar and mature system that *currently* is operationally superior, Lake does not pretend that situation will last for long.

The new AN/APG-79 on the Block II+ Hornet is currently experiencing some glitches because the software that will enhance and upgrade it's capabilities has not yet been fully developed.

Even the original AN/APG-77 was limited until it recently got new software and a new design (AN/APG-77(v)1) which enhanced it's capabilities and eliminated any cooling problems.

But isn't that exactly what I was talking about?

it is not some inherent problem (reliability, heat etc..) of AESA radars that cannot be overcome.

I never said it was, in fact I took great pains to make this abundantly clear in my original post on it.

I think you are misconstruing my comments as an attack on US AESA systems when in fact, I have simply said all along that the decision to go with M-scan initially was right for the Typhoon, for various reasons which are nothing to do with whether AESA scanners are basically flawed or not

Excuse me guys I don't want to tread on any toes here as I respect both the opinions of West point and waynos but I have read (not Jon lake) that that there are certain positions (straight ahead etc) where the physics of the thing make an Mscan more effective in one area of operation than an AESA. The very flexibility of the AESA being a disadvantage in that to focus to the same degree as an MSCAN is impossible (in a particular plane/vector) and so although in general terms it is a whizz bang improvement on the manual version the electronic scanned array has inherent disadvantages in particular areas of use.

These can and will I am sure be overcome soon but not in what I have read so far they haven't.

This was the reason I started the thread on AESA vs Mscan question. Many people told me everything was classified (which doesn't seem to stop speculative debate on here normally) and there are no cooling issues etc with current AESAs. I know (have read) that this not to be totally accurate but hey everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Thanks for the great debate guys.

17 Sqn rules ....