Su-30MKI and Eurofighter to cross swords at air exercise in England

Eight Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, which have the reputation of having outwitted American F-16 fighters earlier would be pitted against the new Generation Eurofighter Typhoon during the ten-day exercises 'Indra Danush-07' to be held at Royal Air Force base in Wadington in central England from July 2 to 12, according to IAF sources in New Delhi.

A contingent of eight SU-30MKI, two IL-78 mid-air refuellers and two IL-76 transport aircraft would leave their Pune base on June 24 for the joint exercises. This would be the second of the series of joint air exercises between Royal Air Force and Indian Air Force.

During the earlier exercise held over the Gwalior air base, the Royal Air Force had pitted their Tornado fighters against IAF Sukhoi's, Mig-29 and Mirage 2000.

Though IAF fighters and pilots had matched their skills against F-16s during joint air exercises with US and Singapore air forces, this would be the first time that Indian pilots would come up against next generation fighters.

full article >>

It has to be said - this is by far the most awaited air exercise clash in recent months. Although results are unlikely to be made public as bad publicity will surely harm the export prospects of whichever aircrafts, the prospect the best flanker out there getting tested out by the typhoons is exciting to say the least.

The Eurofighter is also competing in the 9 billion $ M_MRCA tender for 126 multirole aircrafts posted by the Indian Govt. (Mig-35, F/A-18 b2, F-16 b70, Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen NG) The RFP's for the same are to be issued next week as per latest reports. It is pretty clear that this exercise will also serve as a good forum for the IAF to evaluate the typhoon and pick a winner for the M_MRCA contest more effectively. The Brits will see this as a good chance to demonstrate the typhoon's capabilities as well...

There is a possibility that the SU-20 will go up against the F-22 in August 08. They're supposed to be participating in the 08/08 Red Flag at Nellis AFB.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
There is a possibility that the SU-20 will go up against the F-22 in August 08. They're supposed to be participating in the 08/08 Red Flag at Nellis AFB.

Whos fighters?

India. They're currently scheduled to deploy them to Nellis for the Aug 08 Red Flag. No word on if the Raptor will be there for that one yet though. They haven't released the US units that will be there.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
There is a possibility that the SU-20 will go up against the F-22 in August 08. They're supposed to be participating in the 08/08 Red Flag at Nellis AFB.

Yup!

Here's an excerept from an article on that I just unearthed.

IAF-USAF rematch in American skiesAdd to Clippings

NEW DELHI: After proving more than a match for American, French, British and other pilots in wargames over the last few years, IAF fighter pilots will now face the biggest test of them all — the famous American Red Flag aerial combat exercise.

"We will be going for Red Flag, the world's ultimate exercise, around August 2008. The Americans have expressed their keen interest in us going there with our latest Sukhoi-30MKI fighters... we probably will not disappoint them," said a senior IAF officer.

It was at Gwalior in February 2004 that IAF pilots flying Sukhois and other jets had crossed swords with USAF pilots in their F-15C fighters in the "Cope India" dissimilar air combat training exercise, the first such wargames between the two forces since 1963. And, in what had come as a huge shock to USAF pilots, IAF pilots had more or less outgunned them in the skies, recording most of the "kills" in direct air combat. A few months after that, IAF pilots flew Jaguar strike fighters all the way to Alaska to participate in the multinational Cope-Thunder exercise there. Then, in November 2005, despite objections from Left parties like CPM and CPI, the next Cope India exercise at Kalaikunda in West Bengal saw IAF fighters take on the American F-16s.

There is however, no conformation official of the MKI's participation. The prospect is very likely though. Now if only the Rafale and Typhoon join the party...

[edit on 20/6/07 by Stealth Spy]

I was looking up on the details of the recent air exercise with USAF F-16's and most sources claim that the MKI's were used only for WVR engagements and had their radars turned off.

The Su-30K's and MK's did all of the BVR engagements. This was becasuse of the then prevelant IAF policy of not fileding/exposing the capabilities of the "secret" NO11M Bars radar.

I wonder what the case will be when the MKI's will be sent to the UK
If fielded, surely the no11m will have the measure of the captor.

here is an excerept from Feb 2007's issue of FORCE :

[...]the Su-30MKI's single biggest tactical advantage, particularly in the BVR fight, is the on-board tactical information data link system (TIDLS) that can connect up to four aircraft in a full two-way link. With a range of 500km and being highly resistant to jamming, the TIDLS' can display the position, bearing and speed of all four friendly Su-30MKIs in a formation on a tactical information system, including basic status information such as fuel availability and weapons state. When used in the ‘silent attack' mode, an adversary may be aware that he is being tracked by N-011M radar that is outside BVR-AAM range.

Mod Edit: Trimmed external source

[edit on 6/24/07 by FredT]

Mod Edit: BB Code.

[edit on 27/6/2007 by Mirthful Me]

hmmm...
I've been blowing the N011M trumpet for a long time on this forum.
Its much more than many people give it credit for. Firstly its just so bl00dy big; pure power..
And the the TDL capability.


Anyways, I'm pretty sure any wargame with the Typhoon and/or Raptor etc etc will never involve either side testing and exposing complete radar capabilities. It would be outright stupid for either side to do so.

These exercises are for aligning disjoint operational procedures so that the two sets of a/c may operate under one command and fly mission sorties as one formation.


EDIT: And no such thing as the su-20 here..
Probably a typo but hey..
Besides that I guess they would have a little agility mano-a-mano and derated operating levels for either radar apparatus.


Another article about the Typhoon-MKI meet.
Whatever the exercise objectives may be for this one, I'm really eager to hear what the press releases are on the results of this one!
Hopefully more than the usual 'both sides met their required objectives goals'..
-__-

sigh..

The possibilites of this meet had been discussed in last years Oct exercise with RAF Tornadoes and the MKI at Gwalior AFB.

[edit on 22-6-2007 by Daedalus3]

If fielded, surely the no11m will have the measure of the captor.

Stealth Spy, why do you say 'surely'? Given that what is described in the article could equally apply to what is known about Captor, also many of captors exact parameters and capabilities are still classified. I agree with Daedalus in his last post that neither side would really expose the full abilities of their systems to the other.

I couldn't really call it either way, in terms of best radar, due to lack of specific information, do you know something more that gives you this confidence?

I don't actually think there will be a winner and loser in this, as it is a joint exersis, not a competition. I'd love to know this pans out however.

[edit on 23-6-2007 by waynos]

Even if the IAF sends their latest Flanker variants to Red Flag we should not expect anything spectacular to happen. Both the 64th and 65th aggressors fly conventional F-15 and F-16's. The IAF has already faced both AC types in exercises before. The only sthat might be different are the parameters, the quality of the OPFOR and their combined systems (simulated SAM's, EW, AWACs ect...). Even if the Raptor participated they would be the Blue force flying with Flankers not against them, Nellis has it own permanent Red Air.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Even if the IAF sends their latest Flanker variants to Red Flag we should not expect anything spectacular to happen. Both the 64th and 65th aggressors fly conventional F-15 and F-16's. The IAF has already faced both AC types in exercises before. The only sthat might be different are the parameters, the quality of the OPFOR and their combined systems (simulated SAM's, EW, AWACs ect...). Even if the Raptor participated they would be the Blue force flying with Flankers not against them, Nellis has it own permanent Red Air.

Exactly, I think all visiting forces fly blue on these exercises.
The recent Colonial Flag early this year is a testament to that.

The Indian Sukhois make stopover in Tanagra AB, Greece, on their way to England.

i25.photobucket.com...

Photo Credit © Kostas Pantios

Mod Edit: Image Size – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 27/6/2007 by Mirthful Me]

^^

F-ing sweet!


Really looking forward to this!


Where is the USAF Exercise going to happen?
That's in August right?

According to the photos that has been published out, Su-30MKI without OVT go for the execise this time will lose the simulated combat.

Originally posted by emile
According to the photos that has been published out, Su-30MKI without OVT go for the execise this time will lose the simulated combat.

Which photos are these?
All MKIs have TVC.
Its the Ks and MKs that have the non-TVC AL31-F.
I don't think there are any MKs/Ks remaining in service with the IAF.

From what I've been hearing the Tornado will simulate Meteor launches while the Flankers will be limited to mostly WVR combat, real fair if you ask me...

Tornado, Westy?

I assume you mean Typhoons, or are Tornado's going as well?

I'm pretty sure the Tornado will participate as well, in what official capacity I do not yet know. As for the ROE's (scenario) I mentioned that's just what's floating around, we'll have to see what happens...

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by emile
According to the photos that has been published out, Su-30MKI without OVT go for the execise this time will lose the simulated combat.

Which photos are these?
All MKIs have TVC.
Its the Ks and MKs that have the non-TVC AL31-F.
I don't think there are any MKs/Ks remaining in service with the IAF.

Here you will see there is no TVC was used on Su-30MKI that went to England this time.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I'm pretty sure the Tornado will participate as well, in what official capacity I do not yet know. As for the ROE's (scenario) I mentioned that's just what's floating around, we'll have to see what happens...

hmmm..
floating around? Any linkies for these floats?
Where you picking up all this chatter?

EDIT: Here's an engagement summary from BR:

Sukhoi-30s square off with RAF Typhoons
Much was at stake of its reputation when for the first-time, the Royal Air Force's (RAF) Eurofighter Typhoon, developed by a consortium of European manufacturers and recently inducted into the RAF, was to engage in any kind of an aerial combat with any non-RAF/NATO fighter.

The Indian Air Force's (IAF) Sukhoi-30 MKI 'air superiority fighter', here for the bilateral air exercise at Waddington for 'Exercise Indradhanush-2007', had an opponent for a befitting duel.

The operational part of the 'Exercise Indradhanush-2007' began with a series of 1 vs 1 air combat sorties. Both the variants landed with their much-touted reputations intact as each side tested their potential with their adversary in the air to their limits. These sorties were premised not entirely on having winners or losers – but more for their evaluator and training values as encapsulated in the objectives. And both sides ended-up sharing an enhanced respect for each other's capabilities – both in terms of training values, and combat potentials of the diverse aerial platforms.

While the RAF fielded some of their most-experienced and highly-qualified pilots, some of them being very senior performance evaluators in active service, the IAF pilots were a mix of 'young to middle-level pilots' from the 'Rhinos' squadron. The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKI's observed superior manouevring in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated. The IAF pilots on their part were also visibly impressed by the Typhoon's agility in the air.

While it does not imply to say that the air combat sorties were meant for backslapping each other, it may be understood that in today's aerial combat scenarios of 'beyond visual range' (BVR) capabilities of air platforms, it is highly unlikely that any of the modern-day fighters will ever get into a situation that warrants extreme close air combat, as in the situations simulated in the 'one-versus-one' sorties. With a 'kill' criterion of front-gun ranges during 'one-versus-one' being mostly under 1000 metres and a visual tracking envelope behind the target for only up to a 60-degree cone for most fighter aircraft of the world, the unlikely scenario gets further exemplified.

But the irony also lies in the fact that while there is a number of counter and counter-counter measures to make the modern missiles with claims of inescapable parameters redundant by using 'chaff' and other active/passive measures, a 'gun kill' is invariably a most certain kill. The fighter pilots begin honing their tracking and combat skills under such close combat situations.
The exercise that nearly runs into midway by the weekend constitutes mostly mixed missions where RAF F3 Tornados, Hawks and Typhoons that are packed together with IAF Su-30 MKIs. The sorties include combat situations of 2 vs 1, 2 vs 2 and upward combinations. The raiders are tasked with 'High Value Asset' (HVA) busting on the ground and the 'High Value Airborne Asset' (HVAA) busting in the air, while the defensive elements designated to counter their ambitions.

[edit on 8-7-2007 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by emile

Here you will see there is no TVC was used on Su-30MKI that went to England this time.

I didn't find any reference to 'no TVC being used' in that link..
Am I missing something?

Plus I checked tail nos on 5 of the 6 MKI at Waddington.
All these a/c ARE TVC MKIs. Infact all MKIs have TVC.

Are you saying that TVC will intentionally 'not' be used..

Also here's a pic that shows TVC nozzle in 'down corkscrew' positions for 5 a/c:



Wow that link has one of the most breathtaking set of pics I have EVER seen!
Gosh.. almost as good as seeing the Rhinos in real life!!


Here's a compilation from BR as well.

I truely recommend a quick browsing of that link and the above BR link to all.


Some of the highlights:
Tornado,Typhoon,MKI
Typhoon,MKl



EDIT: I'm sure some of the Brits here must've gone to Waddington for this?!
Waynos?
Can we expect some pics on ATS own soon?

[edit on 8-7-2007 by Daedalus3]