"One Nation Under God?"

If SQ is trying to say that Americans are hypocrites, so what? That just makes them every bit as human as the rest of the world!

I see he's fallen for the propaganda put forth by the global corporate hegemony. Too bad, he seemed like an intelligent poster.

A great point i think SQ brought up was the fact that people are exposed to such violent acts on tv from such a young age, i feel this does play a role to a certin extent, i posted a message on a different board about how we glorify violent behavior by making movies about individuals such as Ed Gains, Ted Bundy ect ect...


Not to be a hyprocite tho, because i myself watch shows and movies with violence, but i'm just stating the obvious.

Alright since this is about abortion:
My stance: womans choice.

Catch-22 to the above: Woman has no right to have an abortion under the following circumstances:
#1: Known prostitute (that is illegal remember?)
#2: under the age of 21 (I say let us set a standard so teenage girls catch the drift: screw you and your through, yet also teach them in school at a much younger age about this and drill it into their heads to prevent this from happening unless they truely sleep around)
#3: The child is in the last stages of devolpment, in short, 2 months from giving birth. Abortion fine so long as taken care of prior to the final stages of devolment when the brain is actually developing and the body is able to take over some functions on its own.




Women who are raped have more than enough of a right to have an abortion though, that was NOT their choice, it was FORCED upon them to have that child in their womb. I would never begrudge them the right.

Are we one nation under god (since that is the threat title): No. Division of church and state remember?

Just so you know I want stem cell research to continue, the sooner we understand how they are made the sooner we can make our own in growth tanks and no longer require a fetus.

It is estimated that up to 50% of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among known pregnancies, the rate of miscarriage is approximately 10% and usually occurs between the 7th and 12th weeks of pregnancy.

www.nlm.nih.gov

Apparently god doesn't have much regard for life either...

Originally posted by Lexion
The bearer of information is the one responsible for the proof.

In this situation though, this isn't some intangible entity, like alien's or God. Abortions happen, and you are just as capable of trying to find out what the statistics are if you want to as he is. If this is a serious issue to you, why not try and find these stats out yourself, instead of asking for the numbers to be provided to you? and when numbers are provided, instead of doubting them because of where they come from, prove you should doubt them by finding stats that contradict them from a source you deem legitimate.

[edit on 17-6-2007 by Kingdrakethe3rd]

[edit on 17-6-2007 by Kingdrakethe3rd]

ALL this does is support Education Promoting responsible safe sex. This nonsense about celibacy is creating a generation of sexually ignorant adults. Education is empowerment, decisions made by responsibly researching options.

Keep cutting funding for Safe Sex and Education, keep watching these numbers go up each year.

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
Oh my god, did a group of people really just take a bunch of "statistics" and say our society is messed up? I fail to see the point in any of these discussions. I'll repeat what I've said in a previous thread (Accurately labeled 27 million people killed by America), bad things happen in this world and sitting around on the internet complaining about them and posting statistics from one nations and labeling it as a failure isn't going to solve you problem.

ShatteredSkies,

I need to shatter the illusion you're under that claims I have labeled America as a failure. The title of this thread is "One Nation Under God" so my problem is with calling ourselves this, under God, because clearly we are not a nation under the Love of God.

On the contrary, this nation is extremely successful in making money, violence, making money on violence, and creating a whole new generation of children who see a homeless person as a target. Or kids who kill their parents, or the explosion of pornography that is turning average Joes into raging perverts, seeking a release from the hours they spend on the internet gawking at everything from little children being raped, to some serious exploitation of our daughters.

We are capitalist, and if we just stuck to what we do best, making money - and leave God out of the picture, we would be even more successful then we are now at making money and telling other countries what to do.

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
I'm pretty sure EVERY person in the US thinks there is one thing or another wrong with it, it wouldn't be too difficult to find people who want change. There isn't much "Enlightening" to do here, the enlightenment is already done thanks to our education systems.

You must be out of your mind... LOL!!! "the enlightenment is already done thanks to our education system?" What country are you talking about, surely you can't mean the U.S. of A.? Our public school systems are designed to produce drones who are good at taking test. No art education, no physical education, shortage of books, computers, and teachers who get paid such a paltry sum of money.

And since when did we allow someone other than ourselves to enlighten our own kids? When mom and dad figured it was better to work two jobs to survive rather than spend quality time with their kids. Which means that our kids are being raised on the street by other kids.

I see it here in Hell (Baltimore) every single day of the week. These Jr. High schools kids have mouths worst than the worst sailors - will fight faster than a Jerry springer guest from a trailer park, and carry weapons. Anything from box cutters, to toenail clippers, to guns. At night, the sound of gun fire echoes in the distant, and then there's the constant sirens of cop cars, and abulances, and hellicopters circling all-day long.

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
I appreciate people doing some research and all, but it's research that has been done before, ideals brought up before, and nothings been done about any of it.

First you say everything is peachy creamy, then you say nothing is being done about it, so stop talking about it.

No! We need to keep talking about it, until we get it and do something about it. And here in lies the problem, in America the most famous thing to say is "God will take care of it!" And why would God listen to a single prayer coming from a country that doesn't do anything more than pay lip service to God? Why should God, clean up our messes?

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
I say we use our flashlights instead of feeling around for an exit.

I say use the light of God that's in you, unless you have just given it up, and now want to just roll over and play dead. Use the light of love - the fire inside that we lost in the sixties, and seventies.

We have allowed the MAN to beat us down, and now we won't even stand up to a lunitic in the White House leading our boys in a war that cannot be won?

Originally posted by crgintx
If SQ is trying to say that Americans are hypocrites, so what? That just makes them every bit as human as the rest of the world!

Please, please, hypocrites? I wouldn't have bothered wasting my time with such a trivial persuite. No, I'm saying much, much more than that my friend. I am saying that we are the most evil society to ever exist on this planet. Nothing, any government has ever done in the history of humankind, compares to our legacy of creating the means to destroy everything - the ability to live on this planet. Or millions at a time, with the push of a button.

Your simplistic, childish thinking is typical of those who are really brainwashed into believing you haven't been beaten down by the MAN! How's the view from your hands on ankles position?

Originally posted by crgintx
I see he's fallen for the propaganda put forth by the global corporate hegemony. Too bad, he seemed like an intelligent poster.

Oh please crgintx,

let me take you on a magical tour of the of the real America, and not the dream land you have swiming around inside of your head. "Global corporate hegemony..." LOL!!

Speak about the violence, and the murder, and the training of our children to to be insinsitive to the suffering of others. Or is all of this just propaganda? Your post makes no sense what-so-ever. I think you just wanted to impress everyone that you could use Global corporate hegemony in a sentence.

Originally posted by Astrithr

It is estimated that up to 50% of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among known pregnancies, the rate of miscarriage is approximately 10% and usually occurs between the 7th and 12th weeks of pregnancy.

www.nlm.nih.gov

Apparently god doesn't have much regard for life either...

Sorry, I fail to see how that's God's fault, and not some defect in the woman? And how does your point fit into the intent, of those who wish to kill a child in the womb, if you don't even know you're pregnant?

Or are you saying that because this happens without a woman knowing it, deciding to end a pregancy is no different?

If that's the case, then why do women go through a period of depression after an abortion?

[edit on 17-6-2007 by SatansQue]

You don't get it do you, SQ? The figures you quoted came from the gov't or PP which certainly didn't release them before running them by the PR Dept. and the lawyers. Who controls the politicians who run the govt's in the US? It's sure not the average working man or woman. Who controls most of mainstream media these days?

Hell is a place where there is no hope and even the roughest ghettos in the US, there's more hope than you'll ever find than in many other places around the world.

Every one thinks that life in the US was so great and/or before Eisenhower's presidency. What Balderdash! Read Upton Sinclair, John Steinbeck or any of number of authors about conditions of life for the poor in the US from 1900-1960's. The poor these days have it incredibly good compared to those folks who were living poor then.

The global corporate hegemony controls nearly everything that is bought or sold in the industrialized world and as they say in advertising, Sex sells. So are you so surprised that kids today are being constantly saturated with near pornographic advertising or violence? And you're surprised by the way the turn out?

Our politicians are marketed to us like any other product by the same folks who sell you cereal or perfume. I don't even know why they call they election campaigns anymore.

Anyone who claims that a nation is Under God or his love is using religion to promote their agenda ,whatever it might be.

But how can you kill someone who hasn't even been born?

Abortion is not a nice thing. Sometimes, however, it is a necessary thing.

In America, the argument over abortion is all about 'killing unborn babies'.

But that is not the real argument.

The real argument about abortion is an argument about the place of women in society, and about the rights of women. It is not, primarily, a rich-world argument; it is a third-world argument.

Those who oppose abortion place the provisional rights of a fetus (which is not a human being; the phrase 'killing unborn babies' is a tendentious, tearjerking oxymoron) above the rights of a living, breathing woman. Not a woman who wants to follow her career or just doesn't feel like bringing up a child, but a woman who is used and re-used as a sexual chattel and a brood animal, who is trapped in an endless cycle of pregnancy and poverty until menopause finally brings relief -- though by then her health and her chance at a decent life have been ruined.

Just a couple weeks ago, The Economist published an article on abortion around the world. The article includes a colour-coded map of the world showing the availability of abortion in different countries. This is what one of the magazine's readers had to say about the map:

The map of abortion laws in your article highlighted those countries that either prohibit abortion altogether or restrict it severely, and is almost identical to regions that are distressed from overpopulation. Nearly all those states are suffering severe social stress, ethnic tensions and civil disorder.

The reader, who gives his name as John Bermingham and his address as Denver, is quite right. Christopher Hitchens remarks in another context that the only known cure for poverty is the empowerment of women and their emancipation 'from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction'.

Ah, well. At least the SatansQue agenda is becoming clearer. Pretending to be the multiply-reincarnated bearer of divine revelations clearly poached from Gnostic writings was just a blind. He's really an antiabortionist.

I think it's a tough issue, i for one am againts abortions, however i feel it is the womens choice or parents choice persay, and i wouldn't judge her because it's not my job.


I understand Astyanax's take in terms of the whole issue of womens rights and such and putting the abortion issue aside for a moment, women along with minorities have been beatin down by the man for longer then most, and while it's true the man has more then caught up in beating us all down equally, you do make legit points in terms of womens rights.

For you people against abortions, consider forcing women who are drug addicts, alchoholics, or mentally unstable to go through with the pregnacy.

1- Is it fair for the unborn fetus to be raised in a womb full of toxins resulting in birth defects?

2- Should the child be carried to term when the mother doesn't want it or care for it and has no intention of doing so?

3- How many dead babies do you want to start finding in garbage bins and ditches?

Some will say these babies could be adopted, and its partly true. But according to the OP's info, 264,943 abortions were performed between 2005/2006 and I can't envision that many adoption cases being possible.

Looking at some adoption info HERE makes it obvious to me that 264,943 adoptions a year is impossible.

So what do you abortion naysayers think the ansewer should be? Large state run schools like China? I hope not.

Way to totally miss my point.

I am not talking about God here just to let you know. I am talking about the pure human intervention here. It is humans that live on this planet and it is humans that will continue to prosper and not God. If we can just stray from God for one minute we might notice that there are millions of people who really do need medical insurance and that there are millions of people dieing from genocide in Eastern Europe and Africa. If we can stray from God for just one moment we can also see that the only speaking necessary is that which requires action itself. Even if it is just raising a simple family and providing health insurance for them and providing a safe environment for the family to prosper because if that happens and if everyone does that then there would be no problem would there?

So why is there a problem if that's what people claim to want?

The only problem I see with this website is that people don't discuss what should happen in the future, they discuss what's happened in the past. They discuss it till it's died a million times over or until their target audience gives in and admits defeat.

The title of this thread is very misleading because so far I've seen it have to do with almost nothing that's been discussed. What exactly is the correlation between this nation being under god and the evils that persist? If in just a few sentences that can be made clear instead of beating around the bush.

For the record I am indeed Roman-Catholic and I did at some point attend Sunday mass. I'm not atheist and I do understand because I've been brought up to fear god, not love him as the church preaches that he loves us.

SQ, all I'm saying is that starting an argument on the basis of God is a difficult one because nothing in this world is perfect, if you can simply just understand that you can't put blame for he good on God and pass blame of the bad off on Humans because the way I've been brought up is that God is infallible and everything that happens happens so because he wants it to. I am speaking Theoretically and rhetorically of course.

Shattered OUT...

[edit on 17-6-2007 by ShatteredSkies]

I'm always curious in these argments - - - - which one of you is a woman who grew up prior to the 60s in the US - - - when women were denied many rights?

(not to mention other countries where women have practically no rights)

Which one of you is a woman that was faced with the decision to abort or carry a child to term?

Isn't it weird that these arguments tend to often be started by men and argued by men. IMO.

Originally posted by SatansQue
"What kind of monsters live in the U.S. of A.? the "Great Satan".

Actually, the better question would be ... what kind of monsters live on planet Earth? 'The Great Satan' could refer to any number of countries or groups of people on this planet. The entire planet is screwed up.

Ever see this site - www.blackgenocide.com... - you might find it interesting.

detonating over Hiroshima Japan, killing as many as 140,000 civilians. All the arguments about stopping the war to avoid more deaths were just excuses.

I lived in Japan for three years. I visited Hiroshima. Have you??

The entire population of Hiroshima was hard at work with the war effort. Even 6 year old kids would go to school half a day and then spend the rest of the day making bullets. Hiroshima was one big war machine.

The museum there is amazing.

The 'excuse' that it was done to stop the war isn't an excuse. Hiroshima was a military target AND IT DID bring the war to a quicker end with less American deaths. That is who we have to look out for - AMERICANS.

Originally posted by SatansQue
my problem is with calling ourselves this, under God, because clearly we are not a nation under the Love of God.

We are not a nation in love with God.
If that is what you are saying ... I fully agree.
Does God love us? Yes. Parents love even their most difficult children.
But I'm sure he isn't too happy with most of humanity at this point.

[edit on 6/17/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
1- Is it fair for the unborn fetus to be raised in a womb full of toxins resulting in birth defects?

Birth defects is a very small percentage of why a woman gets an abortion. Usually it's for birth control reasons.

2- Should the child be carried to term when the mother doesn't want it or care for it and has no intention of doing so?

ADOPTION. That's why we have our daughter now. ADOPTION.

3- How many dead babies do you want to start finding in garbage bins and ditches?

Legal and safe drop off points are all over the country. They are becoming 'the norm'. Also - when a woman has a baby and doesn't want it, all she has to do is tell the people at the hospital or social services. They step in. It's no big deal anymore.

So what do you abortion naysayers think the ansewer should be?

To start with -
1 - Self responsibility.
2 - Education.
3 - SELF CONTROL
4 - Birth Control.
5 - Adoption

Originally posted by crgintx
You don't get it do you, SQ? The figures you quoted came from the gov't or PP which certainly didn't release them before running them by the PR Dept. and the lawyers. Who controls the politicians who run the govt's in the US? It's sure not the average working man or woman. Who controls most of mainstream media these days?

You're going to have to be more specific about exactly which figures you're talking about, because if you're talking about the crime stats, I know for a fact that most municipalities actually under-report crime. In Hell (baltimore) when O'Mally was running for Governor, leaving the mess he created in Baltimore, that's exactly what they did, under-report crime. I worked in the media 10 years. And not once did a single governmental organization come to us to run their numbers past us. And their PR departments usually ran the other way. In fact, the real crime numbers in most cities are some of closest held secrets.

Originally posted by crgintx
Hell is a place where there is no hope and even the roughest ghettos in the US, there's more hope than you'll ever find than in many other places around the world.

Who told you what Hell is like? Maybe it's Your assumptions about Hell that's the problem.

Folks like the Jarawa, who I understand from watching 60 minutes the other day, don't have a word in their language for need. Like, "I need this, or that." They are poorer than poor, live off of the water and die there, and were smart enough to move to high ground, long before the Tsunami hit. Yet they live in paradize, their kids were smiling, happy, they're peaceful, and live beholding to no one.

Here, we're slaves like you say, to the MAN.

Originally posted by crgintx
The global corporate hegemony controls nearly everything that is bought or sold in the industrialized world and as they say in advertising, Sex sells. So are you so surprised that kids today are being constantly saturated with near pornographic advertising or violence? And you're surprised by the way the turn out?

Are we dissagreeing? Do you think I'm surprised?

Originally posted by crgintx
Our politicians are marketed to us like any other product by the same folks who sell you cereal or perfume. I don't even know why they call they election campaigns anymore.

I completely agree.

Originally posted by Astyanax
He's really an antiabortionist.

And proud of it!

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
For you people against abortions, consider forcing women who are drug addicts, alchoholics, or mentally unstable to go through with the pregnacy.

Then sterilize them. Oh, is that too drastic, or should we just go on killing the life in them, because they're too stupid to close their legs? Or too drunk? Why is it that we always have to be concerned with the smallest percentage of women who have abortions like rape victims, drug addicts, alchoholics, or the mentally instable, just to keep the right to murder life as a free choice?

My idea of Mentally instability, is in not being careful enough during the act of sex, that the very thing the womb was designed for, to carry a baby, turns into a death chamber for the LIFE carelessly created.

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
Way to totally miss my point.

I am not talking about God here just to let you know. I am talking about the pure human intervention here. It is humans that live on this planet and it is humans that will continue to prosper and not God. Even if it is just raising a simple family and providing health insurance for them and providing a safe environment for the family to prosper because if that happens and if everyone does that then there would be no problem would there?

Ask gays and lesbians the same question. The reason they can't do exactly what you just described, is because of "One Nation Under God."

If you think you can separate religion from the workings of this country, and it's laws you haven't been paying attention. Again, Baltimore (Hell) the mayor was present:

'Stop Sinning' crusade declared on homicide, apathy
“God is on this team. Maybe everybody else will join the bandwagon. It's gotta start somewhere. Why not North and Poplar Grove?”
Vowing to decrease by half the number of murders in Baltimore this summer, the Rev. Jamal-Harrison Bryant, announced yesterday plans for a new crime-fighting initiative called 'Stop Sinning' - a play on the infamous inner-city mantra 'Stop Snitching.'

God's on the team? My cousin's kid just got shot in the face and died two days after this prayer rally. A few cops walking the beat would have done a lot more to prevent it, than the prayer rally. Those same people praying, if they had seen a crime, wouldn't open their mouthes to report it. Apparently God won't protect them from the criminals for snitching.

Hello! The religious right? They appointed judges, and determine the very rights we're talking about here - including the rights to an abortion.

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
The title of this thread is very misleading because so far I've seen it have to do with almost nothing that's been discussed. What exactly is the correlation between this nation being under god and the evils that persist? If in just a few sentences that can be made clear instead of beating around the bush.

One sentance: Because evil men and women of this country have committed numerous evil acts, and then justified their acts in the name of God.

Name a war that we didn't get into without "God's help". George Bush stood in front of a national audience and invoked God as being on our side against the evil doers.

Originally posted by Annee
I'm always curious in these argments - - - - which one of you is a woman who grew up prior to the 60s in the US - - - when women were denied many rights?
Isn't it weird that these arguments tend to often be started by men and argued by men. IMO.

Not so weird, because Most men want the abortion, as apposed to being stuck caring for a child by a woman they're not in a relationship with.

ON TOPIC: thanks for your comment, Annee, it's perfect, because that's when men do their most stident praying, after the careless deed is done! "Oh God, please don't let that girl be pregnant!

One Nation Under God?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Birth defects is a very small percentage of why a woman gets an abortion. Usually it's for birth control reasons.

Not that I don't believe you, but how do you know that of 264,943 abortions in 06/07 only a small percentage would of been born defect free?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
ADOPTION. That's why we have our daughter now. ADOPTION.

I greatly respect you for adopting. I have a uncle who has adopted over twenty times. He spends his life unselfessly raising children and I don't think I respect anyone more.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
So what do you abortion naysayers think the ansewer should be?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
To start with -
1 - Self responsibility.
2 - Education.
3 - SELF CONTROL
4 - Birth Control.
5 - Adoption

Sounds reasonable but not always feasible. I think we all know not everyone can be trusted to act responsibly. If I thought those 264,943 abortions could have been adopted into loving homes I would agree with you. But by the information I have had time to look at, its not possible to find that many safe homes for kids. I certainly don't want them growing up in foster homes or state run schools/orphanages.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
For you people against abortions, consider forcing women who are drug addicts, alchoholics, or mentally unstable to go through with the pregnacy.

Originally posted by SatansQue
Then sterilize them. Oh, is that too drastic, or should we just go on killing the life in them, because they're too stupid to close their legs? Or too drunk? Why is it that we always have to be concerned with the smallest percentage of women who have abortions like rape victims, drug addicts, alchoholics, or the mentally instable, just to keep the right to murder life as a free choice?

Wow, talking about sterilizing women because they're "too stupid to close their legs". I betting you made few friends with that remark.

Maybe we should castrate all the stupid men that can't keep they're fly up. Sound good to you?

As for being concerned about women that are drug addicts,alcoholics,and menatlly unstable having babies, wouldn't you prefer to have a healthy child? How many couples show the kindness to adopt a physically or mentally challanged child?

As I asked before and now will direct to you SatansQue;

If there are not safe homes for them, where and how should they be raised?

Originally posted by SatansQue
One sentance: Because evil men and women of this country have committed numerous evil acts, and then justified their acts in the name of God.

Name a war that we didn't get into without "God's help". George Bush stood in front of a national audience and invoked God as being on our side against the evil doers.

One Nation Under God?

Thank you. That's made the thread much clearer. It is one thing to crusade in the name of God and it is another to falsify it. All wars that have been fought "In the name of God" are wars that obviously were fought for personal gain. Religion has for the most part been at the root of most Wars in History.

When I fight, I won't be fighting for a higher power or because I have to protect my "god". I'll be fighting for the men around me because they are my Gods. It is not God who comes down and does the fighting, it is humans who are the ones who fight and die. People can say whatever they want in the name of God, it by no means ever justifies their actions. Al though sometimes it does justify the actions in the eyes of many. If you want to look someplace for the source of problems, look at the human alter-ego and the human nature to believe in deities.

Shattered OUT...

I want to make one last point here before I leave the thread since this is going nowhere fast.

Having an abortion after being raped should be the right of every single woman.

Stop and put yourself in their shoes for just a second, try and imagine what they went through. Being beaten to a pulp, brutally raped (against their will), then finding out they are carrying the child of the one who raped them. Would YOU want to have that child? The child of a rapist? To have your body defiled to the highest extremes and then give birth to their young? I am male and I can tell you: Not a snowballs chance in hell.

In case you do not understand what a rape victim looks like I have garnered a few pictures for you to look at:

limitstogrowth.org...
images.faluninfo.nl...

I do not believe anyone here could ever begin to imagine the horror those women go through, and some men, but we are talking about abortion here. If you stop and think, you could see how having that child and raising it could be a way of continuing a nightmare, even having the child could be that for these women. If you want to challange a womans right to have an abortion after being raped, I suggest you go talk to some women who have been raped, and then tell them to their face they have no right to have an abortion. Go to your local "help services" so to speak that deal with violence, rape and so on, I know my own small town has one, and talk to them. I am sure they could find you some rape victims to talk too.

I have not talked to a rape victim yet, but I SURE as heck have talked to A LOT of family violence people, and their lives are destroyed enough as it is, and they were never raped, only beaten and abused.

Then stop and think about how many rapes are NEVER reported or even mentioned, honestly how many times have YOU heard about rape in real life? I have heard it mentioned 2 time in the last 2 years, once on here, one in real life. Reporting yourself as a rape victim is a surefire way of being ostracized from society, it is a quick way of being looked upon as something vile. Yes people still have that mantality, just stop and look around you and think from other peoples shoes.

Anyway, there you go. The right to have an abortion when you are a rape victim should NEVER be infringed upon.