911 Hero Turned Truther...then...

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
IF you read ALL the quotes i posted you will see he CHANGED his story!! In one quote he said he wasnt sure ... then another he says it WAS.

Jesus, what a dramatic change!! Was he sure or not?!?!

The real question is why do you give a damn? Because you're not going consider his testimony anyway. There are several others that gave different testimonies that amounted to the same thing: multiple events, including events specifically located in the basement levels. Three examples off the top of my head are Mike Pecoraro, Felipe David, and Philip Morelli.

I considered his testimoney...on Sept.11th 2001, Sept 13th 2001, Sept 11th 2002. His testimoney was the truth...His TRUE experience...Even in 2002 he said Bin laden was at fault. Why the lies? I've listen MANY!

I never stated there wasnt an explosion in the basement.... There was...and all the evidence points to a fire ball.... heck even Willie said he smelled kerosene!!!!!

I never heard of someones skin being "vaporized" from a bomb going off. Those words were original words from William.

As far as the others...they too heard an explosion..and I dont discredit them either...but there is not one shred of evidence that the explosion they heard and felt... was that of a bomb OR if it were PRIOR to the plane hitting the tower.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
I never stated there wasnt an explosion in the basement.... There was...and all the evidence points to a fire ball.... heck even Willie said he smelled kerosene!!!!!

Do you mean Mike Pecoraro? The parking garage was right above him and had been seriously damaged by an event with enough force to also destroy a machine shop on another floor, and a large press that was in it. I'm not surprised that he smelled kerosene.

As far as the others...they too heard an explosion..and I dont discredit them either...but there is not one shred of evidence that the explosion they heard and felt... was that of a bomb OR if it were PRIOR to the plane hitting the tower.

There actually is evidence of an exposive event before the impacts, as outlined in this paper by Craig Furlong and Gordon Ross: www.journalof911studies.com...

Also an HTML version here: www.studyof911.com...


These guys (Rodriguez, Morelli) said that there were two distinct events, and that they were very close together, only seconds apart. The seismic data from LDEO (events start at 8:46:26) lined up with the time the FAA reported losing Flight 11 (9 seconds later at 8:46:35) reflect this. The same happened for WTC2, where the seismic events as recorded by LDEO started at 9:02:54, but the visual impact on TVs, which feature accurate time stamps, show Flight 175 actually impacting five seconds later at 9:02:59. Both of these times are accurate down to the seconds, but they don't quite match. Again, testimonies suggest two separate events within seconds of each other.

First of all this thread was about William R. and his changing story, lies and fabriacations. I would like to stay on topic. that being said...here are some quotes from people in the North Tower.


A survivor from a floor in the 80s: “The entire corridor became an inferno outside our front door. Smoke began to enter our office. There was also debris falling. ... The fire on the corridor was at least 10 ft high, and it ran the … good length of the corridor. Then I saw a fireball come down the elevator shaft and blew the elevator doors. The fireball came right at me; it was a really bright color. Interview 1000055 (NIST 2004)

78th Floor NT Carmen Griffith (Wife of freight elevator operator Arturo Griffith):

Then the first plane hit. “The elevator doors closed, and I heard ‘Bang! Bang!’” says Carmen. “We were trying to get the door open.” With the door just half-open, Carmen squeezed out into a smoke-filled corridor. As she looked back to tell her passengers that it was safe to exit, a plume of fire seared her face, hands and legs.

www.abm.com...

34th Floor
Jimmy Loughran : "The whole building began to sway about six of seven feet each way. It was like being rocked around in a boat," he said.
"Everybody froze, we didn't know what had happened. Then there was a massive explosion, it must have been the fuel from the plane exploding after the initial impact.

Lobby
“I saw a couple of elevators in free fall; you could hear them whizzing down and as they crashed, there was this huge explosion, like a fireball exploding out of the bank of elevators,” Kravette said. “People were engulfed in flames.”
www.engr.psu.edu...

4th Sub-basement: blast 30 seconds after impact.
Edward McCabe: I was in the refrigeration plant in tower 1 sub basement 4. I was passing through when I felt a slight shifting of the building. I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. about 30 seconds past (sic) and to my left about 30 feet from me was a stairway leading up to a door. this door explodes off its hinges and white smoke came into the plant. I later on found out the reason there was an explosion was the jet fuel filled the elevator shaft and seconds later a spark triggered an explosion.

South tower lobby, An Elevator Engineer:

As I turned around to go back toward the core of the building in the lobby, the second plane hit, and that shook the building.

We heard the explosion and within a matter of seconds after that impact, I heard – and as well as everybody else heard – this noise, this increasing sound of wind. And it was getting louder and louder. It was like a bomb, not quite the sound of a bomb coming down from a bomber. It was a sound of wind increasing, a whistling sound, increasing in sound.....
What we heard was 6 and 7 car free-falling from the 107th floor and they impacted the basement at B-2 Level. And that’s the explosion that filled the lobby within a matter of two or three seconds, engulfed the lobby in dust, smoke.

And apparently from what I talked to with other mechanics, they saw the doors, the hatch doors blow off in the lobby level of 6 and 7 car.... And the noise, the wind noise we heard was, you have to picture that there are two cars or cabs in a hoist length. And a hoist weighs only so big, and it’s encapsulated by walls, so as these two cars came, fell together, the air pressure underneath would cause that sound that we heard."

archive.recordonline.com...

This is when the explosion came.

It progressed down the building, breaking the windows as it went; the entire building was groaning, an unnatural, unearthly sound, much like a can squeezing, or cracking uncooked spaghetti. By the time it reached the lobby, the marble veneer was cracking and falling off the walls; the chandeliers shattered on the floors along with the plaster ceiling, and the force imploded in at about 50 mph, pulling metal, balled safety glass, and other material with it. The pipes were bursting over my head and dense materials were flying around me as if they were being pureed in a blender. In the next instant came a horrible noise and a flash of extreme heat and light blown directly over my head. I concluded later in the day that this was from the huge airplane fireball sent down the 78-110 elevator shaft that exploded out into the lobby, and blew around the walls and curled into the center vestibule where I was taking cover.
...The two officers and I were the only ones who made it out alive.

...As the debris and dust settled, water started to rain down, and black smoke began to roll through with the strong smell of jet fuel in what was left of a once beautiful lobby

www.rightnation.us...

The smell of jet fuel in the SOUTH tower too....hmmm after an explosion. No machine shop blew up there that I'm aware of.

Anyway, I would like to stay on topic and not derail this thread with the fireball debate...If ouy wold like to discuss that, please make up a thread and we can discuss it there.

Thanks

this thread is not just about him changing his story. it's whether he's telling the truth. you keep calling him a liar.
if other witness testimnoy backs up what he's saying, then how is he a liar?

you know, a lot of eyewitnesses said they didn't see a plane, but after it is explained that there was a plane, their testimony changes, and they add in "because a plane crashed into it", after, "i heard/saw an explosion". why don't you call all of them "liars", too?

you're just another version of 'common sense', aren't you? the "debunking911.com" author has more sock puppets than carter's got pills.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
First of all this thread was about William R. and his changing story, lies and fabriacations. I would like to stay on topic.

What does that have to do with 9/11? I was linking it to 9/11 by showing corroborations of his testimony from others. You just want to bash the man?


Simple physics: the elevator shaft walls consisted basically of drywall. If an explosion down the freight elevator shaft caused the damage in WTC1's basement, including destroying a machine shop and causing much damage on the parking garage level, etc., then it would have blown out the drywall on the way down and dissipated in other directions. There was nothing of any strength to focus the "explosion" (which is wrong: the fireball was a deflagration, much slower and much weaker).

If the freight elevator itself, descending from free-fall, caused the damage, then surely its operator would have died, but instead, Mr. Griffith survived with only a broken ankle or something along those lines.

The B1 elevator didn't go down far enough for the described damage. Those were the only two elevators that could have dropped from the impacted floors.


Got all that?

Now there was also a police officer that reported that only the lower-level elevators were blown out, even though elevators were blown out on the lobby level:

(Officer William Walsh's testimony)

[Lt. Walsh:] What I observed as I was going through these doors and I got into the lobby of the World Trade Center was that the lobby of the Trade Center didn't appear as though it had any lights.

All of the glass on the first floor that abuts West Street was blown out. The glass in the revolving doors was blown out. All of the glass in the lobby was blown out.

The wall panels on the wall are made of marble. It's about two or three inches thick. They're about ten feet high by ten feet wide. A lot of those were hanging off the wall.

[B.C. Congiusta:] Wait a second.

(Interruption.)

[Walsh:] What else I observed in the lobby was that -- there's basically two areas of elevators. There's elevators off to the left-hand side which are really the express elevators. That would be the elevators that's facing north. Then on the right-hand side there's also elevators that are express elevators, and that would be facing south. In the center of these two elevator shafts would be elevators that go to the lower floors. They were blown off the hinges. That's where the service elevator was also.

[B.C. Congiusta:] Were these elevators that went to the upper floors? They weren't side lobby elevators?

[Walsh:] No, no, I'd say that they went through floors 30 and below.

[B.C. Congiusta:] And they were blown off?

[Walsh:] They were blown off the hinges, and you could see the shafts. The elevators on the extreme north side and the other express elevator on the extreme south side, they looked intact to me from what I could see, the doors anyway.

This guy even knew enough about what he was saying to clarify which elevators went where. Not many elevators came all the way down to the lobby from the impacted floors in WTC1, which were around floor 94.

You notice in other testimonies, people say that the elevator shafts exploded out, but they say "it must have been a jet fuel explosion" or whatever as if they were assuming what had happened: they didn't actually WITNESS that!

If a bomb was set off in the basement levels that blew out low-level elevators and caused a fireball (not surprising considering the parking garage, and all the gas tanks sitting around in it), then of course you would have people thinking that a fireball came down the shafts from the plane.

Just realize that the initial fireball wasn't an explosion (a deflagration, barely strong enough to blow out windows on the impacted floors! And not even all of them at that), and that the elevator shaft walls were drywall (one survivor got out of his elevator by kicking into a bathroom through his shaft wall), not to mention that the shafts were over 1000 feet long down into the basements:




Visualize what you're saying. A slow, low-force deflagration moving down that far and causing more damage to the basement than it did to the impacted floors? Does that seem logical to you?

Bsbray, I suggest you open a thread for the Fireball Theory. And, as you open this I suggest you do a little research on the injuries caused by bombs and also by fireballs. The injuries that were sustained by Willies friend were NOT consistant with a bomb.

Please also in your thread...explain the smell of Kerosene in BOTH towers.

AGAIN...i ask that we stay on topic. I am not doubting that Willie heard something...

In his first two interviews he said it sounded like "Furniture moving".....funny how that changed.

I am bashing the man because he started off as a true hero, then let it get to his head and spread lies.

No it's not true that the elevator shafts were simply dry wall and that any explosion would have just blown out the sides or whatever. They were actually sealed. And someone is also making the assumption that the elevators that dropped dropped from he top to the bottom. The elevators have an emergency break which stops them after about 10 floors or so. The ones that hit the bottom were already pretty close to the bottom, hence there being survivors.

The following are interviews that I wanted to share. Please note that although I left out some grusome parts. It's still pretty graphic.

Lobby & 3rd floor: Firefighter Peter Blaich

As we got to the third floor of the B stairway, we forced open an elevator door which was burnt on all three sides. The only thing that was remaining was the hoistway door. And inside the elevator were about I didn’t recognize them initially, but a guy from 1 Truck said oh my God, those are people. They were pretty incinerated. And I remember the overpowering smell of kerosene. That’s when Lieutenant Foti said oh, that’s the jet fuel. I remember it smelled like if you’re camping and you drop a kerosene lamp.

www.firehouse.com...

Ronnie Clifford and Jennianne Maffeo

At around 8.45am, Ronnie walked into the lobby of the Marriott, which was connected to the lobby of the north tower by a revolving door.......The zipper of what had once been a sweater had melted into her chest, as if it were the zipper to her own body. Her hair had been singed to a crisp steel wool. With her, in the gust of the door, came a pungent odour, the smell of kerosene or paraffin, Ronnie thought.

www.unison.ie...

(Vasana) Mutuanot was in the lobby of Tower One when she heard the first explosion. Thinking it was a bomb like the terrorist attack in 1993, she turned to run, looking over her shoulder as flames leaped from a freight elevator shaft cooking her back and legs and right cheek. "It was a fireball with sand and heat, like a hurricane of fire," she said.

www.chron.com...

“I saw a couple of elevators in free fall; you could hear them whizzing down and as they crashed, there was this huge explosion, like a fireball exploding out of the bank of elevators,” Kravette said. “People were engulfed in flames.”

www.engr.psu.edu...

The doors parted, but the elevator had become stuck just as the bottom of the cab was reaching the lobby of the south tower. Only the feet of the trapped passengers were visible as the burning jet fuel that had cascaded down the shaft ahead of them threatened to broil them alive.

asrlab.org...

Firefighter Timothy Brown: We finally set up -- prior to this I believe it was the west side of the core of the building there were elevators. Someone had come to me and said that there were people trapped in one of those elevators. So I ran around the corner, and the hoist way doors were open, but the elevator car was only showing about two feet at the top of the door. You could see all the legs of the people that were in the elevator. I would guess there were about eight people in the elevator. The elevator pit was on fire with the jet fuel.

hosted.ap.org...

Firefighter Terence Rivera:

As I got off the back -- the back step, there were a few individuals that were civilians that were outside that were burnt. There was a -- he wasn't a regular security guard. He had a weapon on him. I don't know if he was FBI or Secret Service and he was trying to put the pants out on one individual that was conscious. His pants were still smoldering. I took the can, fire extinguisher off the truck and then sprayed down the pants on the person that was still conscious.
At that time, I had asked him where did this individual come from. He told me when the plane had hit, a fire ball had shot down the elevator shaft and had blown people out of the lobby.

graphics8.nytimes.com...

Firefighter Joseph Casaliggi:

We went into the lobby. The lobby actually looked like the plane hit the lobby. From what I understand, I was told afterwards, that a fireball shot down the elevator shaft and blew out all the windows in the lobby and blew out the elevator doors.

hosted.ap.org...

Greg Manning:

For those of you who may not know the story, she was entering the lobby of the North Tower of the World Trade Center when a fireball exploded from the elevator shaft. She and two others managed to run out of the building, all three of them on fire. A passerby across the street ran to them, reaching Lauren [Manning] first, and put the flames out. He then put Lauren in an ambulance, so she was the first person evacuated. He certainly saved her life.

www.randomhouse.com...

Lauren Mannings interview with Larry King:

Lauren Manning: Building one.
And as I walked into the building, the plane had hit -- I imagine as I was getting out of the cab -- and the fuel just poured down.
LARRY KING: You never got into the building?
L. MANNING: No, I got into the building. I walked into the lobby. As I was turning toward the elevator banks, the fireball exploded out and caught me from behind, and literally pushed me toward the doors as I was running, and...
KING: You kept running?
L. MANNING: Oh, I kept running through the initial panel of doors, through the revolving doors, outside, and my only desire was to -- you know, you think of anything having to do with fire is try to find a way to put it out. So I was running across the street to this grassy median area, and...
KING: You remember all this?
L. MANNING: I remember everything vividly. The, you know, people around me, the debris that began falling, and it was...
KING: Did you pass out eventually?
L. MANNING: No.
transcripts.cnn.com...

Originally posted by snoopy
I always wondered how one can tell a plane is hitting the building while being in the basement. How many people have seen the top of a building while standing in the basement?

hindsight is 20/20 they say. im pretty sure by 2006 he knew a plane hit.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
Bsbray, I suggest you open a thread for the Fireball Theory. And, as you open this I suggest you do a little research on the injuries caused by bombs and also by fireballs. The injuries that were sustained by Willies friend were NOT consistant with a bomb.

And neither was the woman's in the elevator. I'm not saying the fireball in the basement came directly from a bomb, but there were three levels of parking garage underneath the lobby, and there's no way in hell that a fireball is going to come down the drywall-shafted elevators and cause a massive explosive in the BASEMENT.

Please also in your thread...explain the smell of Kerosene in BOTH towers.

I will make three points.

For one, the parking garages were under both towers:




For two, I think it's entirely possible that liquid jet fuel did run down shafts within the core, because of gravity.

For three, liquid kerosene is inconsistent with a fuel-air explosion because the fuel has to be an aerosol and properly proportioned to oxygen to be explosive. Not to mention it has to explode and also not to mention that the explosion is going to go out in all directions and apply great force to everything around it, ie a drywall elevator shaft.

lobby windows blown out, means, bomb in basement. as pointed out, the pressure from the airplane's fireball didn't even blow out the windows of the floor that it hit.

this is why we call ludicrous theories about the jet fuel, 'intelligent jetfuel theories'.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
When did Rodriguez suspect that the official story was wrong?

When did the government suspect that their own story of bombs was wrong?


www.youtube.com...

Maybe we should hold the government to the same standards you are holding Mr. Rodriguez?

Originally posted by Griff


When did the government suspect that their own story of bombs was wrong?


www.youtube.com...

Maybe we should hold the government to the same standards you are holding Mr. Rodriguez?

That's pretty easy, they found no evidence of any such explosives.

Originally posted by jprophet420

Originally posted by snoopy
I always wondered how one can tell a plane is hitting the building while being in the basement. How many people have seen the top of a building while standing in the basement?

hindsight is 20/20 they say. im pretty sure by 2006 he knew a plane hit.

I'm pretty sure he did too. How did he know on 9/11/2001 when he was in the basement?

There were plenty of different stories floating around....that a truck bomb went off at the pentagon...all different things.

Willie changed WHAT HE HEARD that day. WHAT is SOUNDED like. HOW MANY people he rescued.

Funny how people say NO FIREBALL yet the evidence is there!! TONS OF IT.

Originally posted by snoopy
That's pretty easy, they found no evidence of any such explosives.

My point was that they changed their story. Why are we not calling them a liar like Mr. Rodriguez?

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
Funny how people say NO FIREBALL yet the evidence is there!! TONS OF IT.

How do we know for a fact the fireball traveled down instead of up? As far as I know, we don't.

Griff... as evidence is learned is one thing. Someones eye/ear witness testimoney is another.

Monday June 18th... Jim said:"Wow I just saw a car hit a telephone pole!"


Tuesday June 19th... Jim said: "Wow, yesterday I saw a truck hit a tree."

Two years later.... Jim said: "I remeber two years ago, there was a bomb planted on that truck that I saw hit a tree, i believe it was a set up."

Kind of a goofy analogy, but you understand what point I'm trying to make. Willie didn't LIE when talking about what he THINKS happened, but what he does do is speak matter of factly to other people including people from other countries where he visits to tell his story of how he was SHUT UP by the government....which IS a lie.


I would also like to add the one of Willie's associates that he did a protest with in Malaysia a know Holocaust denier and anti- semite Michael Collins. Here is a blog post from Micheal Collins from this past April. (2007)

Holocaust Education KILLS! Ban Holocaust Education NOW–
Before ANOTHER school shooting happens.

Michael Collins writes for American Free press that is run by
Willis Carto who is another known Anti Semite:
www.adl.org...

Quote from Willis Carto:

"If Satan himself, with all of his super-human genius and diabolical ingenuity at his command, had tried to create a permanent disintegration and force for the destruction of the nations, he could have done no better than to invent the Jews."

There is much more of Wille and his anti-semite reactions to 911, but I donbt anyone wants to hear about Willie being and anti-semite.

Originally posted by Griff
How do we know for a fact the fireball traveled down instead of up? As far as I know, we don't.

I have yet to read any eyewitness accounts to fireballs coming up. Thats not to say there isnt any. Of all the eyewitness testimony I have read, they ones that do mention the direction of the flow, it is down. (unless they are away from the elevators and its more of a horizontal flow.)

Kind of off topic here...but 73% of the survivors of the WTC1 and i think 68% of the survivors from WTC2 that were interviewed have claimed to have smelled kerosene. This of corse puts another huge bite into the rediculous NO PLANE theory.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
This of corse puts another huge bite into the rediculous NO PLANE theory.

Not that I believe the no plane theories, but if they were going to fake it, don't you think they'd place jet fuel to burn everywhere? Just saying.