Video & Evidence There Was No Controlled Demo

Originally posted by snoopy
Well for one thing, the NIST report would have no business talking about bomb sniffing dogs. But more importantly there were not bomb sniffing dogs there to be removed. In the previous weeks they had gotten a report of a bomb scare so they brought dogs in to search the place. They found nothing and the dogs went back home.

Uh no they were sent home despite a hightened security posture due to an unusual amount of bomb threats that weekend and the week preceeding.

Originally posted by snoopy
What is this classified information you are talking about? Not much of an argument if you can't talk about the argument no?

Google it. Learn...

Originally posted by snoopy
The other stuff like Odigo and CIA meetings with Bin Laden are not really substantiated or verifiable. And the Odigo one isn't even an issue, it's just something that was overspun to make it sound like a conspiracy.

You sound both very certain and dismissive, I hope you have some sources to quote or something to back all those assumptions up.

Originally posted by Flyingdog5000
F-Dog

I believe I asked rather clearly for links to the studies in which NIST backed its hypotheses.

I assume you realize these don't exist now, because you just spent an entire post ranting.

Originally posted by micpsi
Flight 175 crashed into the 81st floor. According to Christopher Bollyn:

"A former Japanese bank employee recently came forward and explained that the 81st floor was an entire floor of server-size computer batteries:

Fuji Bank had reinforced the 81st floor, he said, so the floor could support more weight. The entire floor was then filled with server-size Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS) batteries.

These units were bolted to a raised floor about 3 feet above the reinforced 81st floor. "The whole floor was batteries," he said, "huge battery-looking things." They were "all black" and "solid, very heavy" things that had been brought in during the night. They had been put in place during the summer prior to 9/11, he said.

But were they really batteries or were they Thermate?

"It's weird," he said. "They were never turned on." "
www.iamthewitness.com...



The office fires would have melted the lead (M.P. = 327.5 degrees Centrigrade) in the many racks of batteries. So what poured out of the gaps on the 81st floor in the NE corner of the South Tower was far more likely to be lead. It is surely too implausible that it was merely coincidence that the metal poured from the very floor that housed tons of lead batteries? Bollyn's witness stated that the batteries were never turned on. But, presumably they would not have been turned on except during a power failure so I don't think that this supports Bollyn's suggestion that the batteries were dummies.

highlited key points that relate to my answer, im not "cherry picking" bits of your statement but just explaining what they do as you seem to lack knowledge of their use.

a UPS (uninteruptable power supply) is like a temporary battery. It requires a constant charge in, stores a small reserve of this power and uses it to regulate "clean" uninterupted & temporary power to your PC.

power spikes or drops are all "regulated" by the UPS before they reach your PC.
As soon as the power is cut they cause the pc to save all data and shut down safely. a bit like a couple of minutes warning of power failure in advance of the event.

so as soon as its unplugged it starts to lose those valuable few minutes worth of power. it is *not* like a torch battery which can be switched on 2 months later in an emergency because it requires constant power to stay "at ready".

an example is most supermarket checkouts use these in EVERY checkout the store has so in teh event of power failure all data is stored to prevent loss of the days sales and to "regulate" the power to save those hard drives data from failures caused by powerdrops or sudden power outages.

Originally posted by Griff


I tried looking into what all metals would be in those but all I'm getting are sites that sell them. Does anyone know what materials are in them?

in a nutshell its a sealed lead acid battery.

one for your home pc (a cheapie) is about the size of a large loaf of bread and weighs about as much as a small car battery. (about 8kg or 15lb)

they look small but are deceivingly heavy..

it would surprise me that they lug all these batteries up there but never switch them on?

lead does not glow when molten, it just becomes a silvery liquid. (ive worked with molten lead before, and you can melt solder onto your solder iron to test this yourself, its 60/40 tin/lead based)
if the room was nothing but these UPS units then theres no other combustibles to make that much molten metal.

Originally posted by Damocles
IF someone was able to make it act like a cutter then you dont have to weaken the millions of tons of steel you only have to apply it to the area youre cutting, which means youd have to figure out how fast it would melt a small area (comparativly) and then apply enough to that area to burn that long, but again, the problem is getting it to cut horizontally.

IF someone could figure out an efficient way to make it cut beams/columns horizontally id GUESS that it would take considerably less than a million tons.

but this is all speculation im pulling out of...um, yeah, thin air.

hope that at least helped

Well what your talking about sounds more like the chemical and mechanical cutters the pipeline companies use.

[edit on 20-6-2007 by ULTIMA1]

well none of the spec sheets ive read seem to give me reason to think thats waht was used but please, share waht you have that you think could have been used specifically cuz its obvious that the ones ive read up on are not the same ones you are thinking of...so maybe a new thread about this?

or if you have one feel free to direct me to it, id love to read it.

i dont no what to beleave some of these theories are plain fake n # lol

First off thats the worst video ive seen of the WTC collaps and shows nothing, but you can hear the mutiple explosions as the building falls even with everyone screeming.
I do welding on car frames and cars panels, Belive me "fire does not melt metal", and aviation fuel isnt as hot as accetalene mixed with oxygen.

If you think fire brought down the WTC, go take a torch and see how mush power it takes to cut a simple peace of metal 1 inch think.
Now i'm not saing the metal didnt get hot enough to bend and twist. but it would have fallen sideways with the top bending to one side, towering the building to fall on it's side, not collaps into it's own basement.

Also you dont find it odd that the 2 buildings didnt topple over like most of us would have though it should have fallen? Instead they both fall exactly the same and yet the damage was difrent to both buildings.

WTC#7 came down due to fire? the fire wasnt that bad... and it was only on 2 floors and it brought down the hole building? I dont think so, thats just not how fire and metal work.

one more point... if fire could bring down a steel buildig then why would they allow them to make these towering death traps?

Originally posted by SpaceBits
one more point... if fire could bring down a steel buildig then why would they allow them to make these towering death traps?

Exactly. Pre-9/11, they did studies of steel frames in fire. None collapsed globally. They bent and warped like they normally do, but didn't globally collapse due to the fire. 9/11 had 3 steel framed buildings collapse globally from fire (please people, don't give me the plane damage because the steel frame was able to adjust for that).

Even if global collapse was "inevitable", I believe they should have fallen differently. The core columns are what gives this scenerio a problem.

Griff,
ive seen a lot of people ask for realistic computer models, and doubt the ones that are out there, that show "what really happened" (yes the quotes are intentional) but has anyone done one, backed by actual facts adn math, taht shows "what should have happened"?

and i dont mean some bored teenager with a graphics program and too much THC doing an "animation" for youtube. i mean actual engineers and architects doing a simulation modelling what we know that shows something happening other than what we witnessed that day?

cuz honestly, in the spirit of open mindedness, id love to see that

Originally posted by Damocles
Griff,
ive seen a lot of people ask for realistic computer models, and doubt the ones that are out there, that show "what really happened" (yes the quotes are intentional) but has anyone done one, backed by actual facts adn math, taht shows "what should have happened"?

and i dont mean some bored teenager with a graphics program and too much THC doing an "animation" for youtube. i mean actual engineers and architects doing a simulation modelling what we know that shows something happening other than what we witnessed that day?

cuz honestly, in the spirit of open mindedness, id love to see that

you want to recreate the wtc insident it's easy...

1) alluminum plane = a hand full of matted tinfoil and packe it tight into a ball
2) WTC Iron cross beams = any steal pole/rod

3) now throw the alluminum ball at the steel pole and see if that alluminum ball slices through the steel pole/rod

I'm betting the alluminum ball gets bent out of shape and no damage to the steel pole/rod.

and lemme guess, putting M80's under a house of cards or jenga tower proves controlled demo?

anyone see why i specified griff on this one? though i guess not to slight him i could have asked bsb as well...

OK well what about when they were removing the debry from the site, they found the metal beams melted toghether as though they were made like that. you can get a fire to get that hot, not with out something added to the fuel like thermite.

As for an alluminum plane travelling at about 500mph wouldnt easily slice through the exoskeloten, yet the wings just seemed to slide in like a hot butter knife in butter.
if you watch the construction video of the WTC you will see these exoskeleton are not thin pieces of mettal.

I think more that the plane would have impacted the building and slightly bent in the exoskel... and allot whould have gone into the windows creating a fire inside the building... but allot of the plane would have been insinerated on impack and fallen down to the ground creating a fire right up the side of the building. basicaly the exoskel... would have sliced the alluminum plane into shreds, and causeing the building to tilt to one side.
the plane had help entering the building and the buidling had help to control the fall to minimize damage at GZ.

not to mention that one video shows a fully intack nose of the plane comming out the other side of the buiding.... how can this be possible? going throw not only one exo... but 2 of them?

lol ok now THAT was a much more articulate response. thank you.

had nothing to do with what i asked griff, but it conveys your opinions in a more thorough manner

now are you basing this on anything or just your own "common sense"?

and are you in possetion of data maybe some of us havnt seen concerning things like thermit/mate at the scene? or explosives?

and please, (this is serious ill beg if i must) please dont cite dr jones as a reference for thermite. at least not until yovue gone here

and if you want a "con" side of the explosives debate just for reference or thought or open minded research im sure i posted a link to my opinion on the matter here somewhere, if you cant find it but would like to read it fire me a u2u and ill link ya.

on your last post though.

Originally posted by Damocles
lol ok now THAT was a much more articulate response. thank you.

had nothing to do with what i asked griff, but it conveys your opinions in a more thorough manner

now are you basing this on anything or just your own "common sense"?

and are you in possetion of data maybe some of us havnt seen concerning things like thermit/mate at the scene? or explosives?

and please, (this is serious ill beg if i must) please dont cite dr jones as a reference for thermite. at least not until yovue gone here

and if you want a "con" side of the explosives debate just for reference or thought or open minded research im sure i posted a link to my opinion on the matter here somewhere, if you cant find it but would like to read it fire me a u2u and ill link ya.

on your last post though.

Haha, sorry i thought griff was "good greef" didnt relize it was a nick... my bad.
as for my my experiance, I have 25 years in car collision, welding and have a body man licences to repair vehicles that have been in severe accidents. I have seen all kinds of accidents with all difrent types of vehicles, and never have i seen a car melt due to fire, the only things that melts that are metal would be the alluminum and white metal objects and thats about it... thin wireing is even still intack and only shows damage to the plastic wrap on the wire.

Originally posted by SpaceBits
you want to recreate the wtc insident it's easy...

1) alluminum plane = a hand full of matted tinfoil and packe it tight into a ball
2) WTC Iron cross beams = any steal pole/rod

3) now throw the alluminum ball at the steel pole and see if that alluminum ball slices through the steel pole/rod

I'm betting the alluminum ball gets bent out of shape and no damage to the steel pole/rod.

This is good stuff! NOT!
What are you talking about???? Throwing aluminum foil at a steel rod???

Think for a second... If I take a toothpick and with all my might..throw it at a cinderblock...what will it do? Nothing! Ok...we got that.

Now...take a 2"x4"x 8' and watch what happens to that after it is picked up by a tornado and thrown 100 yards threw a cinder-blocked wall!

See where I am heading with this Space Bits?

Here is a place on line where it is a game using a pitching machine:
www.srl.org...

The Pitching Machine is the most dangerous machine at SRL. It has a 'magazine' that holds 30 2x4 boards which is shot out of the machine at 135mph, 2 boards per second. The range is about 100 yards or more. Wood will go through 1/4" steel plates and concrete. It has a tethered joystick control for aiming and firing as well as a web interface to allow for remote operation of the machine. It made its tele-operated debut in Tokyo where a user at the ICC a few miles away was able to demolish targets in Yoyogi Park. It was coded in such a way that it can be fired continously while the user pans and tilts the machine for a fully automatic strafing effect.

[edit on 22-6-2007 by CaptainObvious]

Originally posted by SpaceBits
Haha, sorry i thought griff was "good greef" didnt relize it was a nick... my bad.
as for my my experiance, I have 25 years in car collision, welding and have a body man licences to repair vehicles that have been in severe accidents. I have seen all kinds of accidents with all difrent types of vehicles, and never have i seen a car melt due to fire, the only things that melts that are metal would be the alluminum and white metal objects and thats about it... thin wireing is even still intack and only shows damage to the plastic wrap on the wire.

lol all good

but i see youre a person who draws on their life experience to draw a conclusion in their own mind so you will probably understand where im coming from when i say that for 12 years in the military i worked with explosives and other WMD's so when i look and compare what i saw with what i know, i do not see a controlled demolition using conventional high explosives (i added the conventional bit for the benefit of griff and bsbray, its a given that i cant claim any expertise in munitions that i dont have specs for so i cant do any conversions for comparison)

welcome to ats

Originally posted by CaptainObvious

Originally posted by SpaceBits
you want to recreate the wtc insident it's easy...

1) alluminum plane = a hand full of matted tinfoil and packe it tight into a ball
2) WTC Iron cross beams = any steal pole/rod

3) now throw the alluminum ball at the steel pole and see if that alluminum ball slices through the steel pole/rod

I'm betting the alluminum ball gets bent out of shape and no damage to the steel pole/rod.

This is good stuff! NOT!
What are you talking about???? Throwing aluminum foil at a steel rod???

Think for a second... If I take a toothpick and with all my might..throw it at a cinderblock...what will it do? Nothing! Ok...we got that.

Now...take a 2"x4"x 8' and watch what happens to that after it is picked up by a tornado and thrown 100 yards threw a cinder-blocked wall!

See where I am heading with this Space Bits?

Here is a place on line where it is a game using a pitching machine:
www.srl.org...

The Pitching Machine is the most dangerous machine at SRL. It has a 'magazine' that holds 30 2x4 boards which is shot out of the machine at 135mph, 2 boards per second. The range is about 100 yards or more. Wood will go through 1/4" steel plates and concrete. It has a tethered joystick control for aiming and firing as well as a web interface to allow for remote operation of the machine. It made its tele-operated debut in Tokyo where a user at the ICC a few miles away was able to demolish targets in Yoyogi Park. It was coded in such a way that it can be fired continously while the user pans and tilts the machine for a fully automatic strafing effect.

[edit on 22-6-2007 by CaptainObvious]

so you honestly belive that alluminum wings on a 747 that do not really have much for struktural suport as they even flop in the wind from turbulance would slice through the exoskeleton made from Iron re-inforced by cement like a hot butter knife in butter? Impossible, and in the 25 years of working on car collisions and welding tells me these building defenetly had help, the planes had help entering the building and the building had help comming down. if not those buildings would have toppled over taking out allot of NY. as for them comming down onto them self... you can clearly see in allot of the video were several floors all fall at the same time give the evedence that floors under the actual plane crash were taken out with explosives.

many of the recreations show the building to come down floor by floor, top to bottom. but they dont explain why an entire section like 20 something floors all falling at the same time, where it looks like the floors anderneath were just pulled out from under it.

No way would these building have been built if they were so easily to come down, ppl dont just draw a building and then build it, they do major amounts of testing to make sure it stays standing no matter what happends. I do belive they did test as to what could happend to these building if hit by a plane, sure they were several years ago but planes are pretty much the same just a little bigger and a litle more heavy.

sorry but a hollow alluminum plane sliceing into heavy Iron suport beams and cement floors just doesnt compute to an open mind.
If this were the case then the govenment is waisting money building bunker buster missles when they can just use old air linners.

Originally posted by Damocles

Originally posted by SpaceBits
Haha, sorry i thought griff was "good greef" didnt relize it was a nick... my bad.
as for my my experiance, I have 25 years in car collision, welding and have a body man licences to repair vehicles that have been in severe accidents. I have seen all kinds of accidents with all difrent types of vehicles, and never have i seen a car melt due to fire, the only things that melts that are metal would be the alluminum and white metal objects and thats about it... thin wireing is even still intack and only shows damage to the plastic wrap on the wire.

lol all good

but i see youre a person who draws on their life experience to draw a conclusion in their own mind so you will probably understand where im coming from when i say that for 12 years in the military i worked with explosives and other WMD's so when i look and compare what i saw with what i know, i do not see a controlled demolition using conventional high explosives (i added the conventional bit for the benefit of griff and bsbray, its a given that i cant claim any expertise in munitions that i dont have specs for so i cant do any conversions for comparison)

welcome to ats

Well, i would have to say i am a bit of a professional when it comes to metal, welding, bending/shaping metal, and i do belive the planes would have cause allot of damage.
the only problem is the actual amount of damage is actually less that what should be, these 2 planes should have out right did a hell of alot more damage than what actually happend, as i said in an earlier post.

this hole day seems to be odd in itselfe, the accsident happend at the right time when the military was doing the same type of tests/drills and so was the NYFD doing the same drills and both for the same buildings.
the Bush sais they had no idea that such a threat was possible? lol some on! what were the tests/drills for then? i guess they were borred and desided to waist tax payers dollors on doing drills that would in there eyes never happend in real time.

Originally posted by SpaceBits
sorry but a hollow alluminum plane sliceing into heavy Iron suport beams and cement floors just doesnt compute to an open mind.
If this were the case then the govenment is waisting money building bunker buster missles when they can just use old air linners.

Airliners aren't exactly built to hit a solid wall of steel, and the Twin Towers weren't exactly a solid block of steel (not to mention that there is hard proof both pics and videos that the plane didn't exactly bounced off). If you seen what the building looks like, its hollow as well.

As mentioned before that if you can make water cut through steel, why doubt aluminum cutting through steel?

[edit on 22-6-2007 by deltaboy]

Originally posted by SpaceBits
so you honestly belive that alluminum wings on a 747 that do not really have much for struktural suport as they even flop in the wind from turbulance would slice through the exoskeleton made from Iron re-inforced by cement like a hot butter knife in butter? Impossible, and in the 25 years of working on car collisions and welding tells me these building defenetly had help, the planes had help entering the building and the building had help comming down. if not those buildings would have toppled over taking out allot of NY. as for them comming down onto them self... you can clearly see in allot of the video were several floors all fall at the same time give the evedence that floors under the actual plane crash were taken out with explosives.

I honestly don't know what to say. This sounds like Killtown with a spelling problem. Did you read my post? And do you think it's pretty amazing that the "help" the planes got was a PERFECT match..the plane went through EXACTLY where the explosives were set that made a perfect outline of an airplane.