Amnesty. What’s In A Name?

Originally posted by donwhite

posted by rdang
What company or corporation say well, we think that the price of fruit in South America is too low. We feel that the price should be higher so that SA companies and corporations can pay their workers a higher wage. What great business sense that would make. invent one. A MASSIVE US government conspiracy to exploit South America over fruit prices.

The companies we “fools” speak of are not SA companies. They are American companies doing business in SA. Anaconda Copper in Chile. Standard Oil in Venezuela. United Fruit Company and General Foods in several Central American companies. It was America Sugar Refining Company in Cuba until Fidel put an end to that one.

Economic History 101. In 1912, the Guggenheim Brothers, an American organization, acquired control over the copper rich Chuquicamata fields and created the Chile Exploration Company. The first copper bar was produced on May 18, 1915. The Guggenheim Company continued the mining exploitation using names, Chilean Exploration Co, Chile Copper Co., and finally, Anaconda Co., until copper mining was nationalized during the Salvador Allende administration. And that my friends was Salvador's death warrant!

Allende was the elected president of Chile from November 1970 until his suicide during the coup d'état of September 11, 1973. (Another fateful Nine Eleven Event). The Central Intelligence Agency had funded his major opponent, Alessandri, through the International Telephone and Telegraph Corporation. ITT. (Does that make ITT a CIA Front?) Chile’s respected General René Schneider, who held the post Commander in Chief of the Chilean Army, was shot and he died. Schneider was a strong defender of the "constitutionalist" doctrine that the army's proper role is exclusively professional, and it is not to interfere in politics. That was his fatal mistake.

Background. Allende's close contacts with Cuba had heightened fears in Washington. President Allende's economic policy had involved nationalizations of many key companies, notably the U.S.-owned Chuqui open pit copper mine of the Anaconda Co. The Nixon administration began exerting economic pressure on Chile to remove Allende and restore private ownership. Allende replaced Gen. Schneider with Gen. Carlos Parts. He was later made Minister of Defense in addition to his role as Army Commander in Chief. This decision proved so unpopular with other Army personnel Gen. Parts was forced to resign both positions; he was replaced in the latter role by (a more compliant) General Augusto Pinochet . . about whom the world would hear much more later.

On 9/11/73, Allende made what would become a famous farewell speech to fellow Chileans on live radio, speaking of himself in the past tense. Shortly afterwards, Allende was dead. An official announcement declared that he had committed suicide using an automatic rifle, purportedly the sane AK-47 given to him by Fidel Castro. A CIA touch of theater and also a warning to Fidel?

Allende is seen as a hero to many on the political Left. Some view him as a martyr who died for the cause of socialism. His face has even been stylized and reproduced as a symbol of Marxism, similar to the famous images of Che Guevara. Some hold the United States, specifically Henry Kissinger and the CIA, responsible for his death, and view him as a victim of American imperialism.

Footnote: as President in 1972, Allende undertook Project Cybersyn, a system of networked telex machines and computers. Cybersyn was developed by British cybernetics expert Stafford Beer. The network transmitted data from industries to the government in Santiago, allowing for economic planning in real-time.

[edit on 6/14/2007 by donwhite]












And what does this have to do with the price of fruit?
And this is your excuse that the US should accept all of South Americas
illegal aliens? This is why it's ok for Mexico to send it's unwanted citizens here? This is why we must change our laws to allow 12-20 million illegal invaders to become US citizens?

[edit on 14-6-2007 by rdang]

posted by rdang
And what does this have to do with the price of fruit? And this is your excuse that the US should accept all of South Americas illegal aliens? This is why it's ok for Mexico to send it's unwanted citizens here? This is why we must change our laws to allow 12-20 million illegal invaders to become US citizens?

I dunno, Mr R. Sometimes you see’s it, sometimes you don’t.


[edit on 6/15/2007 by donwhite]

posted by rdang
Signature: “The religion of Islam above all others was founded upon the sword . . Moreover it provides incentives to slaughter, and in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men - filled with a wild and merciless fanaticism” Winston Churchill 1899

I don’t like this kind of quote. I don’t like this particular quote. It’s a cheap shot, IMO. It was more than 100 years old when the Nine Eleven Event occurred.

Winston Spencer Churchill, b. Nov 30, 1874, d. Jan 24, 1965. Most famous for his service as the UK Prime Minster during World War 2. He was part of a coalition ‘War Cabinet’ made up of both Liberals and Conservatives. He also served as First Lord of the Admiralty during World War 1, 1914-1918. A post very similar to our Secretary of the Navy. He served as the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the No. 2 job in the UK after Prime Minister. 1924-1929. The equivalent of combining the Secretary of the Treasury with the post of Commissioner of Internal Revenue here.

Winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1953. In South Africa in 1899, Churchill was reporting on the Second Boer War for the London Daily Graphic, and was captured by the Boers and briefly held prisoner at Pretoria. He escaped from the prison camp and traveled 300 miles overland to Portugese territory and freedom.

Churchill left the military and ran for a seat in the House of Commons in 1900. During the campaign, he asked a person for his support, to which the man responded: "Vote for you? I’d rather vote for the devil." Churchill replied: "I quite understand, but since that man is not running this time, could I count on your support?"

Whether prescient or just plainly hopeful, Churchill said, on December 8, 1941, after receiving word of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, “We have just won the war!” Although I disagree sharply with many policies and theories of government that Churchill carried out during his long life, I have said often that he is the single most significant man of the 20th century.

As to whether Churchill made the anti-Islam quote or not, I know not. He was very young in 1899. Age 25. He said a lot of things in his long life. It is said he wrote more than a million words, all by longhand in pencil on yellow pads. He read Winwood Reade's classic ‘Martyrdom of Man’ advocating Victorian era atheism, which completed his loss of faith in orthodox Christianity. He was left with a somber vision of a godless universe. He passed for a time through an aggressively anti-religious phase, but this eventually gave way to a more tolerant outlook. Dates and places from Wikipedia.

[edit on 6/15/2007 by donwhite]

Donwhite - have you gone to the links I provided yet?
Read up. Extremely important information is found there.
Have a nice. day.

FlyersFan has posted 21 links many of which include the world “crime” in the title. Because of F/F’s oft stated position vis a vis the illegal immigrants and the state of affairs in the US surrounding its southern border with Mexico, and what to do about an estimated 12 million people here without documentation, I have not clicked on any links on the list, assuming those links brought F/F to where she is today. A place where I do not intend to go.

If I thought for a moment any of those links would add light and not just heat to my repertoire of knowledge, I’d have already read them. You can be pretty sure those links are strictly polemical and are not educational. Probably filled with carefully “cut and pick” facts posed in the same framework we can hear anytime on CSpan when the current Immigration Bill is being debated in the Senate as I write.

About which I heard one talking head say was 300 pages long and his debate partner admitted he had not read the bill. On that topic, only Rudy Giuliani of the runners for the GOP presidential nomination, claims to have actually read the Bill. As for reading either the links or the proposed Bill, I’d certainly click on the latter over the former. I would rather form my own conclusions than be spoon fed.

Some people here are so dumb it is hard to accept. For example, one of the links offers to tell me how much the American taxpayers are spending to send children of the illegals to school. Can it possibly be true there are full grown Americans living here in 2007 who would deny to a child an education for some misdeed of his parents? Did you know this may be forbidden in our own Constitution?

I should make you look it up for yourself, but heck, here it is, US Con. Article 1, Section 9. “No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.” Bills of Attainder were so much despised by the Founding Fathers they repeated the prohibition. See same article, Section 10. “No state shall . . pass any bill of attainder . . “ Sec. 9 was directed to Congress, Sec. 10 to the states. Oh, a ‘Bill of Attainder’ is a law that penalizes the descendants of a criminal. And one more thing. In our Constitution there are two terms used that are significant in this debate on immigrants. One term is ‘person’ and the other term is ‘citizen.’ An illegal immigrant is not a citizen but he for darn sure is a person. Again the FFs recognized those 2 classes and in some instances, aimed provisions towards the narrower class of ‘citizen’ but in other cases, aimed provisions toward the broader all inclusive class, ‘persons.’ This is a distinction WITH a difference.

Due process. A legal term. Shorthand for due process of law. It denotes the system of laws we employ. There have been 100s of books written about it, but all of it is referenced or incorporated in those few words (4). Say a little to say a lot! Law schools have entire courses on due process. The words ‘due process of law’ are undefined but are addressed in the 5th amendment and the 14th amendment. Briefly, due process means what it says, an “orderly method” or a predetermined course of action. An entitlement just for being a person. That courts will be open and trials public. And etc. Whether or not you are a citizen. The way we do things. Or we did before Bush43 and AG Gonzales.

Amendment V. No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury . . nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb . . nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law . . “ These are things you cannot do (legally) to any person. Like those persons being held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. Denied due process of law by Bush43 and AG Gonzales.

Ahh, I have said this is the BEST of the Amendments. Amendment XIV. Section 1. “ . . nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Notice there are 2 relevant clauses. The “due process” clause and equally relevant to the illegals, the “equal protection” clause. Among other things you cannot deny any person life saving health care. But you knew that. And I’d argue that a child without a formal education is put in grave danger. To the extent that “we” - those of us here who are legal - cannot deny a K12 education to ANY child in our country.

When you add due process to equal protection you have a lot of “rights” available to people we condescendingly call illegals.

Oh, a link? For the US Con, see www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html

For more good reading, this website has all the founding documents including the Articles of Confederation, the document under which we waged our Revolutionary War. 1774-1783. The Con was adopted in 1789. If you will read the Articles (10 to 20 minutes) you will see why we went to the current Constitutin. Evolution at work. See www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/avalon.htm

FYI
US Con. Article 3, Section 2. The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture, except during the life of the person attainted.

[edit on 6/15/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
.... to people we condescendingly call illegals.

You mean ... to people we CORRECTLY call illegals.
That's what they are ... illegals aliens.

Originally posted by donwhite
I have not clicked on any links on the list, assuming those links brought F/F to where she is today. A place where I do not intend to go.

A place where you do not intend to go ... hmmm .... educated about the stats on illegals?? I'll take that as a big 'no' .. you have not read the stats on crime by illegals and you haven't read the stats on how much $$ illegals cost this country.

It's rather enlightening information. Don't ever be afraid of the truth, Donwhite. Even if it disagrees with what you believe at the moment.

Have a nice day.

[edit on 6/15/2007 by FlyersFan]

A common tactic is to divert and change topic.This is usually done when failing on a path.If you can't dazzle them with truth,then baffel them with B...

[edit on 17-6-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

The TROJAN HORSE that we are being handed in regards to illegal aliens and amnesty.

Read up folks.

Excellent quote from the article -

By Frosty Wooldridge
June 18, 2007
NewsWithViews.com

If you look at the media running stories sympathetic to massive illegal alien migration, it’s a prep job for ‘soothing’ and ‘dumbing down’ American citizens until they won’t know what hit them. America’s middle class degrades before your eyes in 2007. Once our borders vanish, if you think 20 million illegal aliens haven’t done enough damage, you ain’t seen nothing compared to what the next 20 million will bring.

** I can't find the instructions on how to quote from an article any other way than this. If someone could give me directions (if this is wrong) I'd appreciate it. Thanks. **

[edit on 6/19/2007 by FlyersFan]

Mr Whitey, I suggest that you take a look at all of the loop holes in your sacred amnesty deal..... Then, come back and tell me that it's for the good of the country, you're full of it man.

20 Loop Holes in the Amnesty Bill



[edit on 21-6-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Amnesty? Shamnesty!

Let's get real. The R&Fs - rich and famous - want cheap labor. The R&Fs do not want labor unions. Illegals solve both problems for the R&Fs. Cheap union busting labor. If they (illegals) talk union, bosses talk ICE - Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the insidious successor to the old INS. Say hello 19th century economic oligarches!

The “problem” dates as far back as 1848, but it really became a hot button topic around 1977. The time of the maquiladoras. Jimmy Carter's attempt to slow the influx of undocumented workers. Originally a strip of land along the southern side of the US-Mexico border, 20 km deep into Mexico. 12.4 miles. US companies could move into the zone, build a factory, hire cheap labor and have no-hassle introduction of goods produced into the US. EXCEPT no US taxes, no EPA no OSHA rules, no Wage and Hour laws. Goods made in the zone were treated in all legal respects as if made in the USA. It's like the R&fs had died and gone to Heaven!

Capital moves out without penalty. Jobs were lost here. We started down that long slippery slope euphemistically known as “outsourcing.” Half the 1-800 numbers in the US are answered overseas. I called about my H-P printer and talked to a very nice guy in the Philippines. He knew a lot more about printers than I knew. Maquiladora means loosely, a foreign owned workplace.

Did you know many office x-rays, hospital cat scans and stand alone mri’s are read in India? Via the internet. Unfortunately, this being America, you do not get any of the benefits using cheap labor but the doctors, hospitals and Investors just increase their rate of profit! Oh, how sweet it is, to be an R&F-er. Oh how credulous we poor and poorer are. Reminds me of the poor Jews who were jammed into large windowless rooms through doors marked "showers" and were told by the German soldiers to “breathe deeply, it will improve your lungs.” Amid screams of terror and tears for children, the doors were slammed shut and locked. Zyklon B was then tuned on. See foot note.

We are told we have 12 million undocumented persons in the US. I have not heard specifically, but I take it for granted that number includes non-working family members who may be here with the worker. Even so that is a large number. It took the very efficient Germans from 1939 to 1945 to transport 6 million Jews and 3 million others to the death camps. That was done by trains. Hitler ordered those trains to be given priority over all others including those carrying munitions to the Eastern Front. On that basis I’d say the Germans were making a maximum effort.

We don’t have enough Border Patrol to “seal” our southern border. We don’t have enough police in our cities to make all neighborhoods safe after dark. We don’t have enough soldiers to make one city - Baghdad - safe.

We do not want to frighten the undocumented persons in the US to scurry “underground.” We want to pass a law that will permit them to come forward and self-identify. Just as our tax laws have always depended 90% on self reporting. Axiom: People tend to obey good laws and to disobey harsh or bad laws. In short, we must act smart even if we are not.

We have passed by several earlier attempts to penalize employers - the real culprit - but hey, employers have money and you know how money and Congress mixes? I worked for a company in the 1990s when the Form I-9 was invented. Every prospective employee had to complete the form and show 2 forms of ID, one of which was to be a picture ID. As I hear it, the Form 1-9 is still used. Well, maybe not by Swift and Company. OTOH, although 1,500 “illegals” were arrested at the 5 Swift Co plants, Yet NOT ONE Swift manager or stock owner or director was even cited! Hmm. Who says money talks, b***s*** walks?

People who are shouting AMNESTY are shooting themselves in the foot.

They are trading for what is now an inconvenience for what could become a major and ugly situation. We must act smart even if we are not.


Foot Note: Making Zyklon B. To raise capital, Degussa split its controlling interest of Degesch with IG Farben in 1930: both companies held a 42.5% share in Degesch, with the remaining 15% held by the Th. Goldschmidt AG of Essen. (From Wikipedia) Zeig Heil!

[edit on 6/26/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
People who are shouting AMNESTY are shooting themselves in the foot.

You are back! Great! I wondered where you had gone.

It's amnesty darnitiall! And no, I'm not shooting myself. (although I'm sure some here wished I would ) However, in response to your post, I will state that those who knowingly hire illegals need to go to jail. No ifs, ands, or buts. The jobs that open up from not hiring illegals can be filled by welfare queens (and kings).

Um .. did you read The Trojan Horse article? You've had a few days!

F/F, I wrote 700 words and you replied with only 100 words. That's not fair. That's not reciprocity. How can 1 of your words be equal to 7 of my words?

[edit on 6/26/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite


The “problem” dates as far back as 1848, but it really became a hot button topic around 1977. The time of the maquiladoras. Jimmy Carter's attempt to slow the influx of undocumented workers. Originally a strip of land along the southern side of the US-Mexico border, 20 km deep into Mexico. 12.4 miles. US companies could move into the zone, build a factory, hire cheap labor and have no-hassle introduction of goods produced into the US. EXCEPT no US taxes, no EPA no OSHA rules, no Wage and Hour laws. Goods made in the zone were treated in all legal respects as if made in the USA. It's like the R&fs had died and gone to Heaven!

I love the way you put problem in quotation marks as if it doesn't exist.

Let me ask you a question, since you seem to be so big on allowing all of these people in here. How are we expected to support such an influx?

Boy, for a group of people who seem to be so convinced that our economy is in trouble, the liberals sure are open to allowing a flood of more people in here whose only motives are to take advantage of the work, medical and social benefits in this country.

Quote marks? Well, that’s a non-question. Those here are already supporting themselves.

A “problem?” Mr SoT, it’s more like a chronic condition than something acute which I’d describe as a problem. My choice of words, I admit.

As for worrying about the globalization of the economy and the loss of 30 million good paying (say union) blue collar jobs since 1975, Yes. The American middle class was based on those jobs. If you like the “middle class” ideal then you too need to be worried.

As for treating undocumented workers who come here to work for us with respect and humanely, yes, let’s give them the same respect we ask them to give us. That’s not hard to follow, is it? If we act responsibly toward those without documents, they will co-operate fully with us. If we act otherwise you could be watching a short sighted America “hatch” an Algeria as in 1960s France.

Medical care? Ask what 43 million uninsured Americans think about our health care system. Most of them called the “working poor.” Ironically, the Mexicans may make America do what is right for its own people in spite of ourselves.

As for future immigrates, if we’d take HALF the money we are squandering in Iraq and spend it improving the economies south of the Rio Grande most of those people would stay home. I don’t know the ratio, but I know a lot of undocumented workers have no desire to be US citizens, but they do desire to be “legal.”

Score: Don W, 5. SoT, Zip, Zero!

[edit on 6/26/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite

As for worrying about the globalization of the economy and the loss of 30 million good paying (say union) blue collar jobs since 1975, Yes. The American middle class was based on those jobs. If you like the “middle class” idea then you too need to be worried.

Yes, I am very worried about it. So much so that I posted an entire thread about it. Declining Middle Class and the Coming Civil War

While I think that this decline is due just as much to off-shoring our jobs to foreign countries as it is to illegal immigration, illegal immigration is also part of the very real and substantial problem.

then you have American citizens that are going to Trade Schools to fill the positions that corporations need filled, and their representatives have the audacity to make such comments as "We need more immigrants to fill job positions." Really? How do they figure? What type of fuzzy math are they using to come to that conclusion?

I'll be honest, if Mr. Bush and his Democratic buddies have their way about it, it's going to be a very dark future for American citizens indeed, very dark.

We do not want to frighten the undocumented persons in the US to scurry “underground.” We want to pass a law that will permit them to come forward and self-identify. Just as our tax laws have always depended 90% on self reporting. Axiom: People tend to obey good laws and to disobey harsh or bad laws. In short, we must act smart even if we are not.

I suppose you honestly think that these illegals are going to come out of the wood work and pay that 5000 dollars that the amnesty bill proposes they pay. Yeah, I'll believe that when I see it.

A minimum or near minimum wage worker pay $5,000? An open invitation to loan sharks! Blackmail! Extortion. Surely this draconian provision will be abandoned. It is as bad a concept as the GREAT WALL some want to build around America. Land of he free, home of the brave. Hmm? Shrinking behind a “Berlin Wall?” Sweet Jesus, come quick!


[edit on 6/26/2007 by donwhite]

Reality check here, no matter how much I am against the illegal immigrants braking the law . . . the truth my friends and fellow Americans and ATSers is that the millions of illegal here right now, are here to stay, they will stay here and they will keep on comming no matter how many useless bills our corrupted politicians wright, after all corporate America would not want it any other way.

PAY A Living Wage? Gee, I Never Thought of That!

posted by marg6043
Reality check here, no matter how much I am against the illegal immigrants braking the law . . . the truth my friends and fellow Americans and ATSers is that the millions of illegal here right now, are here to stay, they will stay here and they will keep on coming no matter how many useless bills our corrupted politicians wright, after all corporate America would not want it any other way . .

Sage observations as usual, Ms Marg6043. America has used and abused the people south of the Rio Grande as our grape pickers (Peru, Ecuador) and our banana pickers (Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua) and or pineapple pickers (Costa Rica, El Salvador) and our raw materials mincers (Mexico, Bolivia, Chile) and our ship stevedores (Panama) and our sugar field workers (Cuba, Haiti) since the days when Simon Bolivar and Jose' de San Martin,* a/k/a - ‘The Knight f of the Andes,’ first liberated them from Spain and Portugal, only to find themselves converted into ECONOMIC PEONS by the American corporations backed by the United Stats Marine Corps. The USMC has made more than 30 incursions into those countries and the mere threat and certain knowledge the USMC will come, keeps 10s of millions of people in subjugation. (*Havana’s international airport is named in honor of Jose Marti).

In short, we (America) have created the circumstances that drive people away from their homes to a far-off foreign country to eek out a living. As M43 points out, the only way we can stop the flow of workers northward is to pay a decent wage south of the Rio Grande. I remind my readers that I’m still paying 39 cents a pound for bananas at my local fruit stand. That was the price 10 years ago. How can a man make a living in Central America if the product of his labor has not been raised in price for a decade?

Gullible Americans fall for the LIES told by every US administration since William McKinley about our intentions South of the border. Have you ever stopped to question those lies? Why we regularly bat 0 for 10 tries? Whythe true democracies are in spite of the CIA and USMC? If we are so intent on spreading democracy why are most countries south of the Rio Grande run either by gangsters - Cuba before Fidel - or by murderous dictators? When there is a free election - which is rare - we order the killing of Chile’s Salvador Allende or wage relentless war in Nicaragua - Daniel Ortega - and endlessly bad-mouthing of democratically elected Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Mexico just had its second free election since the 1814 Revolution against Spain. Mexico has been struggling in one effort after another to be free, but do they get help or hope from America? Not on your life.

We are getting the hatchlings of the eggs we have laid for 2 centuries, and richly deserved they are!

[edit on 6/27/2007 by donwhite]