Amnesty. What’s In A Name?

Facts agreed on. There are a lot of people in the United States without proper documentation. Generally referred to as “undocumented workers.” The exact number is not agreed on. The most frequently heard number is twelve million. I don’t know who or how that number - 12 m. - was reached. It is an estimate because we know they were not counted in any census. I recently heard the number “20 million” mentioned once. It was recited by an opponent of the current Immigration Bill before Congress. It was either a slip of the tongue or a wilful attempt to further hype this issue. No one else has picked up on that number.

1 2, 0 0 0, 0 0 0. That’s equal to the total population in the 13 smallest populated states. In reverse order, small to large. Wyoming. Vermont. North Dakota. Alaska. South Dakota. Delaware. Montana. Rhode Island. Hawaii. New Hampshire. Maine. Idaho. And part of Nebraska. For another comparison, Pennsylvania and Illinois each have 12 million people.

How did they get here? A very large number - I don’t know the number - came here on legal tourist visas and overstayed. While we were careful in issuing the visas, we did not keep records in a central repository of who departed the country, prior to the Nine Eleven Event. I have heard the number 3,000,000. Perhaps it is also an estimate? They are most frequently discovered in the course of unrelated police encounters. Traffic stops, witness statements, etc. There is a very sad story about a Nepalese man who overstayed his visa 16 years in NYC. On his way home, he was caught in the most unlikely circumstance, and held in ONE of our own SECRET prisons in NYC for nearly 2 years. Fortunately for him, he is now home in Nepal, but I doubt that he is a Good Will Ambassador for America.

It is generally assumed most of the undocumented people have come from Mexico. But it is also true that a growing number are coming through Mexico from the Cental American republics. Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, El Salvador and Panama. Aside: I never hear Belize named as a source, why is that? People also come here from South America. And illegal immigrants come here from Asia and Africa.

The overwhelming number cross our southern border with Mexico. Nearly 2,000 miles in length (3,141 km), it is one of the longest borders anywhere between 2 so disparate countries. Mexican GDP per person is $10,000, the population of Mexico is 109 million, the avenge age for men is 24.6 years and the birth rate is 20.3 per 1000. Similar numbers for the US of A are, average age for men, 35.3, our birth rate is 14.1 per 1000 and our GDP per person is $43,500. CIA World Factbook.

Maquiladora. In 1964, the Mexican government instituted a program along its border with the United States that gave special favor to goods produced in the zone - then 20 km into Mexico - and was meant to provide better wages to Mexicans working for American companies that moved to Mexico but sent their goods back to the United States. In the 1970s, the Mexican government extended the special economic privileges to the entire country. Today maquiladora is a generic term meaning any foreign owned business.

A friend worked for RCA in Indianapolis spinning yokes for tv tubes. That factory was moved to Mexico in 1965. I suppose RCA is out of business now. RCA. Radio Corporation of America. Founder of JVC. Japan Victor Corporation. The founder of NBC. National Broadcasting Company. I think Disney owns that one. I’d bet RCA rivaled GE in patents held! GE is almost out of the manufacturing and research business now; it’s mostly in finance. Times change, people move on.

So what do we do now? There are many reasons which ought to be obvious why it is very risky and undesirable to have that many people in the country illegally. They can neither report crimes committed on themselves nor can they be witnesses to crimes committed on others. And so on. By and large illegal immigrants do not infringe on our social security system. All payment amounts under that system are based on the persons own account. No account, no payment. Everyone must have 40 covered quarters - 10 years - before you are under social security! A covered quarter is wages or income of $1,300 per quarter subject to the FICA tax.

I am not aware of the proof required to obtain SSI - Security Supplemental Income - which is a joint Federal state program for people under 65 who can’t work and people 65 or older who are not covered by Social Security.

Food stamps. I don’t know what you have to prove to get a plastic card which is now used in place of the old stamps. Currently the amount payable per person in Florida is $85 a month. Other states may have other amounts. The governor of some state recently tried living on $21 a week for a month. He had an advantage because he included his wife, so they actually had $42 a week. The story included them buying a whole chicken, $3.99. They baked it getting 3 meals each off the sliced meat. Then they boiled the chicken and used the remaining meat to make chicken stew. 2 more meals each. Total 10 meals off one chicken. Compare that to KFC.

FACT. We cannot remove them. 12 million people. It took the methodical and efficient Nazis from 1938 to 1945 to transport 6 million Jewish persons to the death camps. And Hitler always gave those trains priority over all other transport including munitions for the Eastern Front. It would take Amtrak 2 weeks to haul the people attending one of the national conventions planned for next year. And they would probably have 2 de-railments in the doing of it.

INDIVIDUALLY they - the illegals - pose no more threat to America than any other group of like size. I’ve mentioned the problems associated with any person who must avoid the law. It makes them vulnerable to every kind of exploitation. Wages not paid as agreed. Rent raised without notice. No recourse to consumer agencies when gypped by used car lots or used appliances stores. Difficult if not impossible access to health care. Vulnerable to loan sharks. And extortion. It is not a good idea for any society to harbor 12 million people so vulnerable to crime and criminals. Not smart.

IF we begin a punitive campaign to locate and identify the illegals, that will drive them underground. So whatever method we ultimately adopt, it must have appeal to the illegals on the individual level. Some wags suggest we offer a green and white card - Mexican colors - from the ICE - Immigration and Customs Enforcement - an unlikely mix - each should have its own independent agency - which replaced the old INS - Immigration and Naturalization Service - a more logical entity - IF we start stupid it is hard not to end stupid - which card would lead to a Green Card. Permanent resident alien status.

ONE thing many Americans can’t seem to get a grip on is that a very sizeable number of illegals DO NOT WANT to become Americans. They want to work here then to go home. Not everyone on this planet now regards America as favorably as they once did. Other countries are getting better; Mexico has held 2 elections in a row as fair as any in the United States. This is also true in Nicaragua where Daniel Ortega is now the elected president who Ronald Reagan tried to keep out of office by force and violence in the 1980s Iran-Contra Affair. cf. Ollie North. Thanks to the Patriot Act America is no longer the free country it once was. The citadel on the hill with its light now hidden in a basket!

SO which comes first? Secure our border with Mexico OR integrate the 12 million illegals already here? I suggest we do the more doable. Which based on experience is integrating the illegals already here. We have never been able to secure our southern border and short of a Berlin Wall West we never will be. I’d sooner die and go straight to hell than to see America build a wall around itself. Sweet Jesus, come quick!

[edit on 6/12/2007 by donwhite]

12-20 million is the number estimated of illegal aliens in the US. The vast majority are Mexicans.Mexico refuses to enforce it's northern border.But strongly enforces it's immigration laws,at the same time berates the US for attempting,poorly,to enforcing it's.Mexico encourages,and allows it's citizens to cross the border.This is not a victimless crime.Everyday US citizens are killed,raped,robbed by illegal aliens.These illegal insurgents are basically allowed to do this. Our laws are not being enforced now,the amnesty bill being proposed will NOT fix this problem.In fact it will make it worse.Once it is seen that all one has to do is make it across the border,it will encourage more to come over.If the law is not being enforced now,why would they enforce new laws?Yhe US cannot afford to subsidize every person in the world,who is giong to pay for all of this.Who is paying for this.They amount they pay in taxes will not cover it.They did not get here on legal visas,that number,from Mexico,is 175.000.They came here illegally.Why does the US have to support Mexico's citizens?Where is Mexico's responsibility? Where is the rest of the worlds,or does just the US have this responsibilty?

posted by rdang

12-20 million is the number estimated of illegal aliens in the US. The vast majority are Mexicans. Mexico refuses to enforce it's northern border.

That may be asking too much of any government. Americans do not need governmental permission to leave the country. To return, yes, but not to leave. So why ask Mexico to do what we do not require?

Mexico encourages, and allows it's citizens to cross the border. This is not a victimless crime. Everyday US citizens are killed, raped, robbed by illegal aliens.

I’m not sure if providing a citizen a gallon of water, a compass and a map when he or she is about to undertake a dangerous journey is “encouraging” a person. It sounds more like being a humanitarian.

I don’t hear much about crime except from opponents of the Immigration Bill now before Congress. That is not to say there are not a fair number of criminals in the bloc called “illegals.” OTOH, up to now I have not heard of a single terrorist from Mexico. I think there are more Americans under arrest for terrorism than Mexicans. As for the more ordinary crimes, I am against them as are all law-abiding citizens on both sides of the border, but expelling the illegals will not stop those crimes.

The amnesty bill being proposed will NOT fix this problem.

It is not amnesty. Don’t play the demagogue card.

In fact it will make it worse. Once it is seen that all one has to do is make it across the border, it will encourage more to come over. If the law is not being enforced now, why would they enforce new laws?

It’s hard to predict people. When we try, we’re usually wrong. This one sounds much like those who predict a bloodbath in Iraq when we leave. As if the Iraqis had no sense of their own self-worth. We had the same dire predications when we left Vietnam but it did not happen. Hmm?

[edit on 6/12/2007 by donwhite]

Leave Iraq and Vietnam out of this.Uh,by the way after we left Vietnam,what happened in the region?"re-education camps" Pol Pot. Humanitarian,it's still illegal and wrong,but than again,Mexico is the one who benefit so it's ok.Expelling the illegals will not stop those crimes,if they wern't allowed to be here,there would be no crime to prevent. It IS amnesty,illegal actions being rewarded.By rewarding these 12-20 million,you think all of a sudden,they will stop coming over? I'll say again,why is it the US has to care for Mexico's citizens? I have an idea,why don't Mexico take care of their own problems? Answer:why should they when the the US will.All these illegals,who pays for their health care here? Right,the US taxpayers.Thats why your health insurance pays $10 for an aspirin,so again the US citizens are paying.No terrorists came over? For all anyone knows Bin Laden himself could have made it over,no one knows whos here.

Never mind.

[edit on 12-6-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Donwhite. You seem to leave out the fact that they, the illegals, are here in violation of the law. Yes, our immigration laws are too serpentine to be believed...I've read some of them and understand nearly none of it in places...

But until such time as they are replaced, they should be enforced.

Amensty/Guest worker Program. The two go hand in hand. Giving a guest worker visa, or whatever they finally decide to call it, is tantamount to a granting of amnesty. This will solve nothing, do you honestly think that the people holding a temporary guest worker visa will turn around and go home when it expires? Some indeed may, more, however, won't.

The solution, if there is one, is in making it very uncomfortable for the employers of illegals, not the illegals themselves. That's like fighting a fire by blowing away the smoke. No jobs, no illegal immigrants. That's the solution.

I doubt very strongly though, that any such solution is forthcoming, at least for the forseeable future. Too many, by far, entrenched interests in Washington DC, and elsewhere at state and local levels, have a vested interest in preventing that.

Arrrgh!!!!

The above post was actually written by me. "Silly" Seagull, the one who keeps forgetting to sign on correctly.

posted by Seagull
Donwhite. You seem to leave out the fact that they, the illegals, are here in violation of the law . . But until such time as the [laws] are replaced, they should be enforced. [Edited by Don W]

I know that. But we are at the verge of a catastrophe. 12 million is too large a number to treat lightly and with such indifference by the leaders of our great country. Petty bickering. Controversy fed by ultra rightist for the sake of audience numbers.

The underlying fact is since the early 19th century the United States has exploited every country south of the Rio Grande. Colonialism American style. In the 1820s, we had the audacity to proclaim the Monroe Doctrine - the Western Hemisphere is ours - and for a variety of reasons, European powers accented to it. We have now come to believe it ourselves.

If I wasn’t buying bananas for 39 cents a pound - the same price I paid 10 years ago - and the Guatemalan or Honduran who picks'em and loads'em onboard ships for a few pesos a day - if the land in those countries was not owned by absentee landlords in California and New York - then we would not necessarily have so many illegal immigrants forced to come north to work for just barely ONE HALF of a decent wage.

We were and are neo-colonialists and our chickens are coming home to roost. Anytime those people talk about democracy for themselves - the key being the redistribution of land - as in Jeffersonian small independent farmer theory - we send in the United States Marines Corps as our “enforcers.” That’s been the MC’s job for 200 years. Still is. Enforcers. Enforcers of what? Enforcers of foreign capitalist exploiters of small foreign countries, NOT for the benefit of the inhabitants but for the benefit of those Yankees who “own” the US Government. Say hello, Fidel. He fought back. I’m not into prayer but if I was, I’d pray that Fidel lives at lest until January 20, 2009, to mark this as the10th US president he has outlasted. With no help from the US you can be sure.

Amenity/Guest worker Program. The two go hand in hand. Giving a guest worker visa, or whatever they finally decide to call it, is tantamount to a granting of amnesty. The solution, if there is one, is in making it very uncomfortable for the employers of illegals, not the illegals themselves. No jobs, no illegal immigrants. That's the solution.

Amnesty, shamnesty, who cares? Have I not pointed out here that tit is the R&Fs who are behind this “problem?” I don’t hire illegals and I doubt you do. I don’t hire nanny’s for my children, but rich lawyer wanna be judges do. But Swift and Company hires them by the 1000s. Why? Union busting. Maximizing profits. Wage and hour laws intentionally unenforced by GOP. You name it. Swift and Co. finds it is cheaper to bring the workers here than to take the factory there. Maquiladora north. Sure, our $3.00 a pound hamburger will be $5 of $6 if using American unionized workers. So we are also to blame. “If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.”

So we need to deal with this problem honestly, for the first time in our national lives.

I doubt very strongly though, that any such solution is forthcoming . . Too many entrenched interests in Washington DC, and elsewhere at state and local levels, have a vested interest in preventing that.

Which always comes back to CFR - Campaign Finance Reform. We must pay for our own elections and stop selling America to the high bidder.

[edit on 6/13/2007 by donwhite]

Hmmm...

It's finally happened...

Donwhite, you and I have finally agreed on an issue. Huzzah!!

Our chickens are coming home to roost...and we do need to deal with it now, later ain't gonna work.

It's not JUST the Ultra right, it's all of them, period. No one group of political slaves are more guilty than another. Look at who's supporting this bill, it covers the whole damned political spectrum. Until we, as a nation, stop dividing ourselves between right and left, socialist and democrat, whatever and whomever, nothing is going to change, except for the worse.

This is your blind spot, DW. No one group is more guilty than the other. Ones just a bit better at hiding it than the other.

The solution isn't just Campaign Finance Reform, though that's a great place to start, IMHO. It's a shift in our thinking as a nation, we need to address this problem, not by condemning the illegals, though they do need to be curtailed, but by forcing employers to stop hiring practices that encourage the illegals to come here.

Hit 'em where it hurts...the pocket book, the year end balance...and make sure they know why. Get rid of their sycophants in Washington DC, get rid of them in Olympia, in my home state of Washington.

A second American revolution is almost certainly necessary to change this situation.

[edit on 13-6-2007 by seagull]

Yeah, let's all blame America why don't we? You fail to mention, Don, that the governments of south America are corrupt. You fail to mention that America has basically allowed people to flow in and out of here freely for the last 60+ years. You fail to mention that when comparing entrance into the U.S to other nations in the world, it is sufficiently easier to enter the U.S.You fail to mention that if the Democrats had their way, absolutely nothing would be done about border security. Need I go on and talk about other things that you have failed to mention?

Oh, but yeah, continue, blame America.



[edit on 13-6-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

What company or corporation say well,we think that the price of fruit in South America is too low.We feel that the price should be higher so that SA companies and corporations can pay their workers a higher wage. What great business sense that would make.And I'm sure the SA companies would give it to the workers,they would never pocket it. I was wondering when BDS,Bush derangement syndrome,would show up.Bush has exploited SA and it's people,the US has exploited SA and it's people Right,they would NEVER be exploited by their OWN government. So,because of this terrible,terrible exploitation,the US MUST change it's laws.The US MUST take care of all these illegals "coming home to roost".What a load of crap.When I said why must the US pay for this open border fools had no reason,so they invent one.A MASSIVE US government conspiracy to exploit South America over fruit prices.

The reality is these illegal aliens are coming here simply to get something for nothing.They have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Originally posted by rdang

The reality is these illegal aliens are coming here simply to get something for nothing.They have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

rdang. That simply isn't the case in the vast majority of cases, and you're smart enough to know that. Most are here to work and send money home to help support their families, which is perfectly understandable. It's illegal as all get out, but still understandable.

The United States has sent troops, more than once, to enforce our will in central america, from Panama to Nicaraugua to Haiti to Mexico, and numerous other places over the past century and a half. Starting with the Mexican-American War on through to our intervention in Haiti which if I'm not mistaken is still ongoing. To say we haven't meddled in other countries affairs for our own benefit is just wrong.

I'm not saying intervention wasn't necessary in some of those cases, what I am saying is that we do it for our countries self interest, not neccessarily the interests of those countries in which we intervene.

I've never said its our responsibility to care for them...I'd just as soon they go home. What I am saying, however, is we need to acknowledge the fact that the United States, for all our high sounding rhetoric, are just as prone to acting in our own self interest as the next country, and quite frankly we need to stop doing that. We either need to stop the actions or stop the rhetoric. Live the words, or stop saying them...

We can look out for our self interests abroad without being a meddlesome interloper, it'll take more work than merely using coertion. It's time and past that we began to try to live up to our high sounding rhetoric.

[edit on 13-6-2007 by seagull]

posted by Speaker ofTruth
Yeah, let's all blame America why don't we? You fail to mention, Don, that the governments of South America are corrupt.

Hmm? I dunno, SoT, and the current American Administration is not corrupt? How to you measure “corruption?” What’s 500,000 MREs not delivered but paid for and then the Sec of Def orders the DoD IG to stop looking into the matter. He is backed up by the President. Corrupt? Halliburton, of course. Tell me one government on this planet that does not have some corruption.

You fail to mention that America has basically allowed people to flow in and out of here freely for the last 60+ years.

I assumed that was general knowledge. The issue what to do about those people has also been argued off and on for the same “60+ years.” But we have never before had so many undocumented people here. It is now a problem of monumental proportions that demands attention. But rational, realistic, non-blame laying attention. A bit like cancer, you want treatment, not endless argument over causation. Demagogues stay home, please.

You fail to mention that if the Democrats had their way, absolutely nothing would be done about border security. Oh, but yeah, continue, blame America.

It is not true the Democrats have not acted responsibly towards border security. We - not really speaking for all Democrats - have a different view of life than Red State types. I don’t want to hide behind a wall or even a tall woven wire fence capped with barbed wire. I don’t want my Border Patrol equipped with fully automatic weapons. I don’t particularly want them trained as marksmen.

I want as many access points as the traffic requires. I want all the latest and best possible ways to verify at least the identity of each transiting person. I want a realistic way to grant entry but retain some degree of control, depending mainly on their purpose for entering the country. And etc. Rational. Realistic. Reasonable.

If we would spend some of that $2 b. a week Bush43 is blowing in Iraq and Afghan on improving the working conditions south of the Rio Grande, we would not have so many people so desperate as to break the law to enter the US. But then, that’s rational , reasonable and realistic, so it wont sit well in Red States. Which is why they are Red States.

[edit on 6/14/2007 by donwhite]

posted by rdang
What company or corporation say well, we think that the price of fruit in South America is too low. We feel that the price should be higher so that SA companies and corporations can pay their workers a higher wage. What great business sense that would make. invent one. A MASSIVE US government conspiracy to exploit South America

The companies we “fools” speak of are not SA companies. They are American companies doing business in SA. Anaconda Copper in Chile. Standard Oil in Venezuela. United Fruit Company and General Foods in several Central American companies. It was America Sugar Refining Company in Cuba until Fidel put an end to that one.

Economic History 101. In 1912, the Guggenheim Brothers, an American organization, acquired control over the copper rich Chuquicamata fields and created the Chile Exploration Company. The first copper bar was produced on May 18, 1915. The Guggenheim Company continued the mining exploitation using names, Chilean Exploration Co, Chile Copper Co., and finally, Anaconda Co., until copper mining was nationalized during the Salvador Allende administration. And that my friends was Salvador's death warrant!

Allende was the elected president of Chile from November 1970 until his suicide during the coup d'état of September 11, 1973. (Another fateful Nine Eleven Event). The Central Intelligence Agency had funded his major opponent, Alessandri, through the International Telephone and Telegraph Corporation. ITT. (Does that make ITT a CIA Front?) Chile’s respected General René Schneider, who held the post Commander in Chief of the Chilean Army, was shot and he died. Schneider was a strong defender of the "constitutionalist" doctrine that the army's proper role is exclusively professional, and it is not to interfere in politics. That was his fatal mistake.

Background. Allende's close contacts with Cuba had heightened fears in Washington. President Allende's economic policy had involved nationalizations of many key companies, notably the U.S.-owned Chuqui open pit copper mine of the Anaconda Co. The Nixon administration began exerting economic pressure on Chile to remove Allende and restore private ownership. Allende replaced Gen. Schneider with Gen. Carlos Parts. He was later made Minister of Defense in addition to his role as Army Commander in Chief. This decision proved so unpopular with other Army personnel Gen. Parts was forced to resign both positions; he was replaced in the latter role by (a more compliant) General Augusto Pinochet . . about whom the world would hear much more later.

On 9/11/73, Allende made what would become a famous farewell speech to fellow Chileans on live radio, speaking of himself in the past tense. Shortly afterwards, Allende was dead. An official announcement declared that he had committed suicide using an automatic rifle, purportedly the sane AK-47 given to him by Fidel Castro. A CIA touch of theater and also a warning to Fidel?

Allende is seen as a hero to many on the political Left. Some view him as a martyr who died for the cause of socialism. His face has even been stylized and reproduced as a symbol of Marxism, similar to the famous images of Che Guevara. Some hold the United States, specifically Henry Kissinger and the CIA, responsible for his death, and view him as a victim of American imperialism.

Footnote: as President in 1972, Allende undertook Project Cybersyn, a system of networked telex machines and computers. Cybersyn was developed by British cybernetics expert Stafford Beer. The network transmitted data from industries to the government in Santiago, allowing for economic planning in real-time.

[edit on 6/14/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
Generally referred to as “undocumented workers.”

Generally referred to as 'illegal aliens' because that's exactly what they are.

b]How did they get here?

Illegally. Some came legally and then broke the law by continuing to stay after they were supposed to leave. How they got here isn't as important as the fact that they are all criminals.

I doubt that he is a Good Will Ambassador for America.

So what? It's his own fault for being an illegal alien and therefore a criminal.

So what do we do now?

Build the wall. Send the illegals home.

By and large illegal immigrants do not infringe on our social security system.

By and large illegal aliens infringe upon our entire country. They are a drain on finances and resources. Schools. Hospitals. Colleges. Police departments. Everything.

INDIVIDUALLY they - the illegals - pose no more threat to America than any other group of like size.

California’s Illegal Alien Crime Wave
Illegals and crime
Crime Victims of Illegal Aliens
Crime and the Illegal Alien
Illegal alien crime wave in full swing
For Illegals, Crime pays
Illegals – crime that will shock you
MORE illegals – crime that will shock you
Illegal alien gangs & the M13 in American Cities
More on M13
ICE Announcement
M13 Illegal Alien Gangs – Third World Momentum
The Human Cost of Illegal Aliens in the USA
Mexico’s #1 Most Wanted Criminal – captured as illegal alien in Ohio
Illegal alien sexual predators
Killers, Rapists, Robbers
Time Magazine warns about illegals – the crime and the burden on the US economy
1 Billion in US taxes to take care of illegals in US prisons
Crime = Mexico’s #1 Export
The Massive Cost of Educating Illegals - 36 Billion $$
Massive free (uncompensated) hospital care to illegals (paid by US taxpayers)

AND OF COURSE -
Border Security, Terrorism and You

They want to work here then to go home.

I don't care what they want. They are here illegally. They have no right to use our services, flood our hospitals, send their kids to our schools, take jobs from those who are on welfare/unemployment and should be working .. they have no right to be here and I don't care if they want to work and then 'go home'. They should GO HOME and WORK THERE. If there is no work there ... then they should fix their sorry-a$$ country and not drag ours down.

SO which comes first? Secure our border with Mexico OR integrate the 12 million illegals already here?

Secure our borders and then send the illegals back to their home countries. Your 'integration' = amnesty for criminal behavior.

I’d sooner die and go straight to hell than to see America build a wall around itself.

I want a wall. I want a STURDY wall. 20 feet wide. 20 feet tall. 20 feet deep. 20 feet thick. Manned with LOTS of armed guards. The militia. The army. Whatever it takes. Bring our troops back from Iraq and put them at our borders.

edited to fix quote


[edit on 6/14/2007 by FlyersFan]

Secure our borders and then send the illegals back to their home countries. Your 'integration' = amnesty for criminal behavior.

I’d sooner die and go straight to hell than to see America build a wall around itself.

I want a wall. I want a STURDY wall. 20 feet wide. 20 feet tall. 20 feet deep. 20 feet thick. Manned with LOTS of armed guards. The militia. The army. Whatever it takes. Bring our troops back from Iraq and put them at our borders.


edited once to fix quote


[edit on 6/14/2007 by FlyersFan]


Wisdom being the better part of valor, and lest I should run afoul of standards, I shall respectfully declilne to respoind.

[edit on 6/14/2007 by donwhite]

Edit: Removed Big Quote

[edit on 21-6-2007 by chissler]

Originally posted by donwhite
Wisdom being the better part of valor, and lest I should run afoul of "standards" I shall declilne to respoind.

I figured you would say something like that. donwhite .. It was nothing personal. I answered your post. That's all. Hope you have a lovely day.

Oh .... and Bush definately IS trying to push Amnesty through .. no matter how he tries to spin it.

Edited to add - btw ... Donwhite .. you answered WAY to quickly to have read any of the links I provided. You really might like to visit them.


[edit on 6/14/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by donwhite

If we would spend some of that $2 b. a week Bush43 is blowing in Iraq and Afghan on improving the working conditions south of the Rio Grande, we would not have so many people so desperate as to break the law to enter the US. But then, that’s rational , reasonable and realistic, so it wont sit well in Red States. Which is why they are Red States.

[edit on 6/14/2007 by donwhite]

Yeah, let's talk about one of those red states that you seem to dislike so much. Namely Texas. Texas is the eighth ranked economy in the world.Yeah, you heard me right, in the world. It has a better economy than most nations do.

So, why you are talking about the red states as if they were some kind of disease is beyond me.

Secondly, what you are proposing might help some, but unless you put more man power to patrol the the borders, it is not going to be as secure as it should be. By the way, we need to beef up security on both the Mexican and Canadian borders, in my opinion, so it goes way beyond Mexico.

Thirdly, since when have the Democrats ever wanted to do anything about the borders other than wanting to continue to let people pour across them? I don't ever remember the Democrats even suggesting that we need to secure our borders. Oh, of course they are now because it has become such a red button issue, but where were they in the previous 50 years? Certainly not where they should be on this issue.

Reagan passed laws in the 1980s that have yet to be enforced. Why? Honestly, we don't need anymore legislation in regards to illegal immigrants but we do need to figure out what we are going to do about border security. In regards to illegals,we need to enforce the laws we already have in place.

“Birth Tours”






What a sickening,foul display.Thank you, Kennedy,Bush.
Just here to work.

posted by SpeakerofTruth

Yeah, let's talk about one of those red states that you seem to dislike so much. Namely Texas. Texas is the eighth ranked economy in the world.

Texas No. 8? I dunno, Mr Speaker. I have low regard for anything Texas. It is an archaic economic oligarchy, IMO. No place to be poor in. Of course, I assume you own several working oil wells so this is of no regard to you. I checked on your numnbers re Texas as a World Economic Paradise.

National Ranking of GDP, by CIA (2005) From: wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California
1. United States
2. China
3. Japan
4. India
5. Germany
6. United Kingdom
7. France
8. Italy
9. Russia
10. California
11. Brazil
12. Canada
13. Mexico
14. Spain
15. South Korea

States by GDP per person, top ten,
Rank Order
1. Delaware, $59,288
2. Connecticut, $50,332
3. Mass, $46,721
4. New York, $46,617
5. New Jersey, $44,885
6. Alaska, $43,748
7. Colorado, $41,798
8. Virginia, $41,702
9. California, $41,663
10. Minnesota, $41,295

bottom ten by rank.
41. Idaho, $ 30,896
42. Maine, $30,305
43. Kentucky, $29,842
44. Alabama, $29,697
45. S. Carolina, $29,642
46. Oklahoma, $29,545
47. Montana, $27,942
48. Arkansas $27,875
49. W. Virginia, $24,748
50. Miss., $24,062

From: bea.gov/newsreleases/regional/gdp_state/gsp_newsrelease.htm

You must be looking at a Texas website. They didn't make it on CIA or BEA sites. Hmm? You don't suppose Bush43 fans afe blowing smoke, do you?

[edit on 6/14/2007 by donwhite]