Calling all Christianity debunkers

Originally posted by Amenti

yes one does, but one apparently has a hell of a hard time showing the specifics as it relates to Jesus....look Im not saying that you guys dont have a library of books at your house that tell you about how some such God was born of a virgin, and died on the cross as a sacrifice for the sins of the world, and was resurrected on the third day etc etc Im just saying that They apparently (see for yourself) dont stand up to even the most simplistic scrutiny I know you think your have been proven these claims but look again ...someone PLEASE show me AFTER at l going through the links I originally provided that the similarities you claim are there. just pick one kirisha, horus, whatever

Why are you jumping on my case? All I am doing is making an observation. If you would have read the first part of my post, I clearly stated that I think trying to use the stuff to "disprove Jesus' existence" is ludicrous. Maybe you should pay a bit more attention to what you are reading,eh?

Originally posted by sb2012


We should unite and form new religion which would enable us to live in peace and cooperation. Also we would need to think how to merge religion and science. Check latest discoveries from quantum physics and space exploration and you will see, sooner or later science will discover spirituality.

Also religion with some science would be safe from brainwashing.

You are probably right about this, but it won't happen until about 5.5 billion people are wiped away from the earth.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, I suspect that Jesus was quite aware of the mystery schools in Egypt, so, it's really not any surprise to me that there would be parallels. As far as using these parallels to prove that "Jesus didn't exist," or whatever, I think is kind of ludicrous.

I think the issue of his existence is another topic altogether.
I don’t discount Jesus knowing of the mystery schools or even attending them as Cayce suggests, If this is the case, If Jesus was trying to imitate Horus in this example we should see the parallels, and after doing the reading you do not find such parelles that I have heard were there for years.

Im sorry if you were offended SOT It was not my intention.

Originally posted by grover
I wash my hands of this thread.

i second that, the ignorance (even in the sources given, and the refusal to admit that the sources given actual prove certain points that they also refute...) astounds me. so this is my last reply to the thread

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I don't blame you. You're way out of your league. You have received your education by those that seek to keep you from the truth. You read a few books by some blind clowns whose intent is to keep you in blindness.

sun, you're delusional. you hold yourself in an arrogant manner even though you've yet to ever prove a single point you've ever made on this forum regarding your insane theories.

You walk in blindness being led by the blind thinking you have understanding.

cliches won't hide your moronic arguments

Where do you think all these false gods come from?

aren't all deities false?
and anyway, the same place your deity came from, humans

The deceiver whose purpose is to keep you from seeing the Messiah.

you kind of have to prove the existence of said deceiver and said messiah before you use them in an argument

The Christian movement was taken over by the Romans when they could not kill all the Christians. If you can't beat them.........take control of them.

or it could've just been a fickle emperor... you know, the romans were kind of religiously fickle. they didn't even have their own religion to begin with.

The Vatican is the very place that the Christians were executed.

what makes catholicism any less christian than your christianity?
oh wait, you say so...
and i completely forgot that you can back it up with incoherence

In 321 Constantine changed the day of worship commanded by God to Sunday to worship the sun god...........Lucifer.......the bringer of light.......and Satan appears as an angel of light.

or the change was made because the story goes that the guy came back to life on a sunday...
and what names of the days were actually changed to the nordic week much later than the 300s, the only day remaining from the roman week being saturn's day.

You need an education in truth.....try the KJV.

don't make me laugh. if you want truth look to science. look to history. look to true inquiries into knowledge

anyway, i wash my hands of this thread.
it's pointless to stay here. no matter how much evidence i put forth to prove my point the OP won't budge on her/his position, and sun is conclusively delusional.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

don't make me laugh. if you want truth look to science. look to history. look to true inquiries into knowledge

anyway, i wash my hands of this thread.
it's pointless to stay here. no matter how much evidence i put forth to prove my point the OP won't budge on her/his position, and sun is conclusively delusional.

I don't blame you for washing your hands of this thread either. You were called out several times for info and never produced anything of value........as usual. And everytime you get an answer you never respond to the facts and then bellyache later that your question was never answered. It seems you are the one that never has answers.


BTW.I have no problem with true science. (Conclusions under controlled conditions) and I certainly have no problem with history as it only backs what I say..

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

or the change was made because the story goes that the guy came back to life on a sunday...

Here's your continued problem. You can't face history and the truth.

You want history?

Constantine the Great changed the day of rest on March 7, 321 AD by declaring ‘All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the Venerable Day of the Sun.


You seem to have problems facing history and the truth. That's why it doesn't matter how much truth you put in front of the blind man. Until the blind man seeks the truth.........he can never face it.........or find it.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I don't blame you for washing your hands of this thread either. You were called out several times for info and never produced anything of value........as usual. And everytime you get an answer you never respond to the facts and then bellyache later that your question was never answered. It seems you are the one that never has answers.

Sun Matrix I've viewed every post of yours and you are just about the same, if not worse than, MadnessInMySoul.
Madness and others actually COMPARED Christian beliefs about Jesus to beliefs about other deities.
The most you said was the usual 'blah blah non-whatever-my-denomination-of-Christianity-is religions are the Debbil/false prophets etc' and that the 'truth' was the Bible.
How do we know the Bible is the ultimate truth?
Oh wait, that's right: It's the Bible, therefore is exempt of any criticism.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
BTW.I have no problem with true science. (Conclusions under controlled conditions) and I certainly have no problem with history as it only backs what I say..

What 'conditions' are those? Or is it just 'science' that corroborates with Biblical scripture?
Also what you said is false: What you really meant was 'History is only right if it supports MY view on the past'.

Originally posted by Chaoticar

Sun Matrix I've viewed every post of yours and you are just about the same, if not worse than, MadnessInMySoul.
Madness and others actually COMPARED Christian beliefs about Jesus to beliefs about other deities.

Great, and I made the point that .........We have not followed cleverly devised fables when we made know to you the coming of the Messiah.

How do we know the Bible is the ultimate truth?

We don't........I do. I suggest you educate yourself and put it to the test, so we will know.

Oh wait, that's right: It's the Bible, therefore is exempt of any criticism.

Please........no Book has been criticized more.......and yet it still stands. Feel free to criticize, but when the facts come out, try facing them. That's the real problem, not the truth of the Bible........facing the truth.

Also what you said is false: What you really meant was 'History is only right if it supports MY view on the past'.

No bub, I don't have any problem with history. I just used it here to disprove what Madness said reguarding why the day of worship was changed to SUNday.........do I need to provide a link? Anytime you want to bring history into the conversation, bring it on.

Constantine the Great changed the day of rest on March 7, 321 AD by declaring ‘All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the Venerable Day of the Sun.

[edit on 15-6-2007 by Sun Matrix]

surely someone has a revised list of similarities that holds up to simple scrutiny..

Oops

[edit on 15-6-2007 by phoenixhasrisin]

Originally posted by Amenti
surely someone has a revised list of similarities that holds up to simple scrutiny..

Yeah , try this link which then leads on nicely to another site here.

Here you will find the story of horus and the similarities to jesus, and also names the BCE source that you can read for yourself.


G

shihulud,
Yes Google searches are fun aren’t they, unfortunately just because you can type “jesus Horus” into a search engine and quote Leedom, (whom Ive already shown to have knowingly lied about this, or at least guilty of some VERY bad research) and the known Satanist and mason Churchward, doesn’t make it so. Which btw, is not to say that he couldn’t dig up some information and could have actually done his reading just because hes a Satanist, but they both obviously didn’t, and neither did you. Again, I know you have been told these similarities exist, and you have books that tell you they do, but the whole game is counting on you to be lazy and not see for yourself, when you look at the BCE texts for yourself the similarities disappear.
See for yourself regarding the one you picked….. Horus

www.tektonics.org...
kingdavid8.com...
www.pantheon.org...
www.reshafim.org.il...
towerwebproductions.com...
members.aol.com...
www.wikipedia.org...

ok, i wont mention the fact that some off the links you have posted actually prove the point you are fighting against and ill just start from scratch, ok.

you linked to wiki. see wiki here:
en.wikipedia.org...

which says:Virgin Birth occurs frequently in pre-Christian mysticism, the impregnation of mortal women by gods is common in pagan mythology, including the then well-known story of Hercules, born to Alkmene by the god Zeus.

and of course Justin Martyr:
"Be well assured, then, Trypho," I continued, "that I am established in the knowledge of and faith in the Scriptures by those counterfeits which he who is called the Devil is said to have performed among the Greeks; just as some were wrought by the Magi in Egypt, and others by the false prophets in Elijah's days. For when they tell that Bacchus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by Jupiter's intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that the Devil has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses? ..."

and another from wiki:
en.wikipedia.org...

see also: The Bacchae (also known as The Bacchantes) is a tragedy by the ancient Greek playwright Euripides. It premiered posthumously at the Dionysia in 405 BC, where it won first prize. (there you have a good date for pre-xian virgin birth.)

as for the vigin birth of Horus:

Isis actually had sex with Osiris after he was killed by being torn to pieces. she put him back together but without his penis, so she made him a fake penis and had sex with that and yee-haaa! Horus!

as opposed to mary who just had sex with a ghost (therefore not really a vigin, since she was impregnated by something, technically)

but i guess we can agree that if we mean the hymen being torn, then mary was a virgin before she had sex with the holy spirit, eh. unless we go with some of the other sources that claim she was actually a whore......................

also, think about this:

we all agree that Horus wasnt actually a real person , right?
then since you demand irrefutable evidence in plain english about a god that isnt real, why can i not ask you to provide the same proofs concerning Jebus, who you claim is actually the son of god?

you see, if you take each minor detail as a single entity you cannot see the entire piture. the story of jesus is rife with pre-xian mythological sories and events, which constantly repeat themselves again and again. its all basically just astrology from the old days woven into the ever-evolving realm of "religion".

perhaps the main issue is that, anyone who actually knows all of this is most likely smart enough to not want to waste any time trying to prove anything to someone like you, who wont admit anything anyway(even when you yourself link to evidence against your own argument), as your main agenda is only to believe what you want to believe, contrary to all the evidence in the world.

and BTW, basing your beliefs on apologetic websites is just as bad (if not worse) than any other random internet copy/paste rhetoric. dont take EITHER side of the argument as face until you look into both sides. you will easily find that the Jesus as God myth is just as lame as any other Zeus or Marduke myth.
same stories, different binders.

Originally posted by I am Legendwe all agree that Horus wasnt actually a real person , right? then since you demand irrefutable evidence in plain english about a god that isnt real, why can i not ask you to provide the same proofs concerning Jebus, who you claim is actually the son of god?

I don’t know that Horus wasn’t real, do you? Secondly, Im not trying to disprove the existence or prove the existence of anything. I wrote the first post to show the copycat claims have wrongly been taken at face value by all my friends in the “truth” movement. A philosophy which I firmly believe in and am very much a part of, and would die for and probably will. Its just bad business to not check your facts, and its like saying “Ill go ahead and believe Icke on this Jesus thing without checking it out and tell everyone about it cause he was right on Aspartame.” Its not consistent. I too am guilty of hearing only what I want to hear sometimes and finding out only what I want to find out sometimes but this issue is important on the grounds of integrity of information. As Im sure you noted a lot of what you thought you knew about these similarities don’t exist can you give me that.

On to your points

Originally posted by I am Legendok, i wont mention the fact that some off the links you have posted actually prove the point you are fighting against and ill just start from scratch, ok.

you linked to wiki. see wiki here:
en.wikipedia.org...

which says:Virgin Birth occurs frequently in pre-Christian mysticism, the impregnation of mortal women by gods is common in pagan mythology, including the then well-known story of Hercules, born to Alkmene by the god Zeus.

Yes the impregnation of mortal women by gods IS common in pagan mythology, as well as the bible (Genesis 6), In fact I don’t think you can begin to understand the history of the planet without a decent understanding of this truth. But gods doin’ chicks is the opposite of virgin birth unless I missed something.

Alcmene (hercs mom) was most definitlty not a virgin, I bet she wishes she was, sounds like she got rocked by Zeus. Thats just not the case..unless you’ve got an early copy of the story Im not aware of.


On Justin Martyr:
100 years after knowing exactly what happened to Jesus I would expect some of the
Ideas converging a little, honestly man, I side with this guy a lot, the fact is that there were over 300 specific prophecies in the old testament regarding the Messiah they were written more than 2000 before Jesus.

Originally posted by I am Legendand another from wiki:
en.wikipedia.org...

see also: The Bacchae (also known as The Bacchantes) is a tragedy by the ancient Greek playwright Euripides. It premiered posthumously at the Dionysia in 405 BC, where it won first prize. (there you have a good date for pre-xian virgin birth.)

according to the play while dressed as a chick to spy on chicks, the crazy chicks ripped Bacchus/Dionysis limb from limb including his mother (ouch) and then one of many versions have him coming back to life. and one account that he returns every year rejuvenated. I would look at how convoluted this part of the story is before getting to exited. if this was Christian doctrine imagine how it would be torn apart. tektonics.org... (5th bullet point down from What Has Napa Valley to Do With Jerusalem?
I think dionysis is as close as you can get to what you want.

Originally posted by I am Legendas for the vigin birth of Horus:

Isis actually had sex with Osiris after he was killed by being torn to pieces. she put him back together but without his penis, so she made him a fake penis and had sex with that and yee-haaa! Horus!

[Isis] made to rise up the helpless members of him whose heart was at rest, she drew from him his essence
, and she made therefrom an heir A HYMN TO OSIRIS AND A LEGEND OF THE ORIGIN OF HORUS.

continuing... I ran out of space...sorry..



[Isis] made to rise up the helpless members of him whose heart was at rest, she drew from him his essence
, and she made therefrom an heir A HYMN TO OSIRIS AND A LEGEND OF THE ORIGIN OF HORUS.
gross but not a virgin birth, it says she drew forth “essence” so yeah,… y’know…but I know that there is a version where she creates a royal dildo and gets after it. So If that’s what you want to go with and ignore the earlier texts then sure It was a virgin birth just like Jesus. (Exept for the vibrators)

Originally posted by I am Legendperhaps the main issue is that, anyone who actually knows all of this is most likely smart enough to not want to waste any time trying to prove anything to someone like you, who wont admit anything

what do you know smart ass? that’s not cool.

Originally posted by I am Legendyou will easily find that the Jesus as God myth is just as lame as any other Zeus or Marduke myth. same stories, different binders.

Yeah that’s what they keep telling me

Well, who's version do I believe?

The New American Bible, published in 1970, is the Catholic version of the Bible written in very modern English. The books of the Apocrypha are incorporated into the Old Testament of Catholic Bibles. Otherwise, this translation does not differ significantly from modern Protestant Bibles.

The New American Standard Bible, published in 1971, is a scholarly update of the 1901 American Standard Version. Sponsored by the Lockman Foundation, the translators used the best available Greek and Hebrew texts as a guide.

The New International Version of the Bible, a completely new translation of ancient Greek and Hebrew texts sponsored by the New York International Bible Society, was published in 1978. Its clear, direct modern English makes it easy to read and understand.

The New King James Version was published in 1982. The translators worked from the earliest and most trustworthy Hebrew and Greek texts available and also used the 1769 King James revision as a general guide to preserve much of the majestic style of the original King James Version.

The New Revised Standard Version Bible, published by The National Council of Churches in 1989, is an update of the highly regarded Revised Standard Version of 1952. The language is very modern, but the style is more traditional than the NIV.

The Revised English Bible is a British edition published by Oxford University Press in 1989. The translators have written in a style suitable for use in worship, while maintaining intelligibility for people of a wide range of ages and backgrounds.

In addition to the translations above, there are a number of paraphrased Bible versions which were translated "thought-by-thought" instead of word-by-word. The translators have written in a style that is thoroughly modern and these Bibles are suitable for all ages and very easy to understand. By nature, though, these paraphrased versions involve some interpretation that is subject to debate:

The Living Bible, published in 1971, is a popular paraphrased version written by Kenneth N. Taylor, who began this version to help his own children understand the New Testament Letters of Paul.

The New Living Translation, published in 1996, is a thought-by-thought translation by 90 Bible scholars from various theological backgrounds and denominations. It is similar to The Living Bible, but the language is more traditional.


Am I designated one or do I just go with the one that caters to my current lifestyle, or do I just close my eyes and randomly point to the screen?

External source

Originally posted by kleverone
Well, who's version do I believe?

I would go with the KJV.

It seems to add confusion that there is so many different translations. I WONDER WHY?

Fortunately they are all translated from one text.

amenti, you do realize that the virgin birth as prophecied in the OT isnt messianic, nor about Jesus, as most likely isnt even talking about a virgin anyway, dont you?

also, you glossed over my point before (as apologists will do), but the "virgin" birth is simply another angle to the sex with a diety theme, just using an OT prophecy about something else to try and wiggle in Jebus to the equation. and since she was impregnated by a spirit, technically she wouldnt be a virgin anyway ( maybe before, but not after, sex is sex, and the virgin argument is semantic once she is knocked up). she would just be knocked up by an invisible ghost..........oh wait, i mean god.........yeah.

seems to me you are getting yourself hung up on one word, most likely on purpose, to avoid the fact that although not all pagan diety births have a virgin in the story, almost all of them have sex with a god of some type, just like your Jebus. far more likely that in actuality mary (miriam) was a slutty hairdresser who gave it away like candy to a little kid. but really, feel free to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin it that works for you, just remember the OT prophecy isnt even about Jesus, so maybe you should look a little deeper into your own mythology......i mean bible.........before you go worrying about basing your beliefs on apologetic websites which spew as much disinformation as any website out there.

also, i would like to ask why do you think the virgin birth of jebus isnt mentioned by paul, the earliest of the NT's books? and why does Mark say that Mary thought Jebus was a nutcase, and many around him rejected his teaching? i would have thought , since he was born of a virgin and all, that people would have expected some big things from him.................

also see this about Jebus:
Galatians 4:4
But when the time had fully come, God sent his son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem under the law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

and dont forget Romulus and Remus, who founded Rome, and amazingly have stories that are very similar to biblical stories (born of a virgin, sent downstream in a basket, threatened at birth, heavenly ascension, etc at al)


[edit on 16-6-2007 by I am Legend]

There are a few mighty big egos on this thread. It's funny how threads like this always bring those who "know the truth" out.

Originally posted by Amenti
shihulud,
Yes Google searches are fun aren’t they, unfortunately just because you can type “jesus Horus” into a search engine and quote Leedom, (whom Ive already shown to have knowingly lied about this, or at least guilty of some VERY bad research) and the known Satanist and mason Churchward, doesn’t make it so. Which btw, is not to say that he couldn’t dig up some information and could have actually done his reading just because hes a Satanist, but they both obviously didn’t, and neither did you. Again, I know you have been told these similarities exist, and you have books that tell you they do, but the whole game is counting on you to be lazy and not see for yourself, when you look at the BCE texts for yourself the similarities disappear.
See for yourself regarding the one you picked….. Horus

Granted there is not a lot of info regarding Horus (I checked a few translations) but can you state categorically that there are no similarities betweeen the jesus story and other god-men stories, i.e virgin births, miracle worker, ressurected, son of god etc in a BCE source?
However I find your methods of refute quite hypocritical, there are NO original sources for the biblical story but it is taken as literal truth (which it quite obviously isnt).


G