Why Hell cannot exist.

Originally posted by yeahright
I don't know that "fairy tale" would be correct nomenclature. Personally, I prefer the term "parable".

That's a very valid point. However, if you look at every other parable Christ used, every one of them uses a real life type of situation to make known a spiritual truth, and never do they ever use a proper noun. Yet, in this account Christ makes, He is speaking of the spiritual, that which takes place on the other side of death. On top of that, He names two people, one of which is the father of the Jews, Abraham. In addition, Christ puts words into Abraham's mouth. That He would say that Abraham said something that he really didn't say is deceitful, and I would imagine that the God of all the universe would be able to come up with a different example where He wouldn't have to speak of something that does not exist and speak on behalf of people who never really said what He claims they said.

That's just my understanding and the reasoning I have used (briefly -- I've studied that section a lot because of it's abnormality in Christ's teachings and in trying to understand what happens the moment we die) to come to my conclusion that Christ was actually relating an actual historical event rather than a parable.

Originally posted by junglejake
my conclusion that Christ was actually relating an actual historical event rather than a parable.

We couldn't disagree more. And the reason I even bother to "go there" is because it's one of those things that when taken the wrong way (meaning, "literally") creates a whole bunch of misunderstanding. Accepting the story of Lazarus and The Rich man as literal creates multitudes of contradictions with other biblical truths. We either need to accept this as a parable, or throw out most verses dealing with spirit, soul, body, death, resurrection, immortality, grave, hades, punishment, chastisement, firstfruits, for a few examples.

I think I could show you why this is in fact a parable. It's definitely meant to teach, but not to be taken literally. But now is not the time (since I'm running late), and this probably isn't the place.

Just briefly, who is the firstfruit? Who was in heaven at the time of this lesson? Where does scripture tell us people go when they die? I don't think it's possible to take this parable literally without contradicting a significant amount of other scripture.

Yeah when I was young, and told about God, I got this picture in my head.

This is what God looks like to a child.

A big guy with long white hair, and a long beard.. He is very built, and has a tatto of a heart on his right arm that says DAD.
God wears a wife beater that has crumps and stains on it, and a big spiked belt!
He wears Blue jeans that are dirty, and big Steel toed boots..
When you are bad, people say, Oh you just wait till your father gets home!
So when God came home every night he would take off his belt, beat you till you cry and send you to hell!!

Oh yeah, I dont think they serve dinner in hell either... Yeah the whole Hell thing is very silly this day and age.
Even if you kill 50 people, I dont think that would warrent forever in hell?
And They say God loves you.. But if you dont listen to him, or do anything bad that takes a few seconds in this life, you will burn forever!!
LOL freakin silly, and it works to keep people in line.. A long time ago Hell was a good thing to have, keep the peasents in line..
Things change, and this day and age, we dont need hell.. We have prison systems, and communications.. Hell is a state of mind... not a place.

[edit on 043131p://5419 by zysin5]

Originally posted by yeahright
Accepting the story of Lazarus and The Rich man as literal

What I find interesting is that the rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus back from the dead to warn his brothers.

Abraham said it wouldn't make a difference, he didn't say it wouldn't be done, just that it wouldn't make a difference.

Jesus does bring a man named Lazarus back from the dead, and the religious leaders still want to kill Jesus, and they want to kill Lazarus also. So I guess it didn't make a difference if Lazarus came back from the dead, just like Abraham said.

Also just a sidenote which I actually thought of just now as I was writing this. The rich man in this incident may not have been monetarily rich. It may be that this rich man was someone who was a pharisee who would be "rich" by knowing what is contained in the scriptures, yet didn't believe.

Luke ch 15 & 16 tell us the pharisee's were there listening to these stories also. So when a man named Lazarus did come back from the dead, they would have remembered this story, yet they still did not believe the truth of salvation and Christ.

Besides teaching us valuable lessons, this story Christ told, appears to be a prophetic story also.

WOW!!!!!!!!!! This is one of those things that are hidden in the Bible.

Originally posted by zysin5
But if you dont listen to him, or do anything bad that takes a few seconds in this life, you will burn forever!!



LOL freakin silly, and it works to keep people in line..

I watch the news all the time, it doesn't appear this is keeping anyone in line.

Actually the message of an eternal hell is not proclaimed much anymore and as you have said, it's a silly notion, so that is probably why the news is full of violence, because most don't hear of and believe in a place called hell anymore.

Originally posted by junglejake

Then that leads one to ask, how do you establish what is true in scripture and what is false?

Anything that is not of a loving,forgiving God cannot be, by the very nature of what God claims to be, true.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by zysin5
But if you dont listen to him, or do anything bad that takes a few seconds in this life, you will burn forever!!



LOL freakin silly, and it works to keep people in line..

I watch the news all the time, it doesn't appear this is keeping anyone in line.

Actually the message of an eternal hell is not proclaimed much anymore and as you have said, it's a silly notion, so that is probably why the news is full of violence, because most don't hear of and believe in a place called hell anymore.

Heheh are you thumping your bible at me?? If so, Id love to hear what you think hell is, and just where you stand..?

Originally posted by dbrandt
so that is probably why the news is full of violence, because most don't hear of and believe in a place called hell anymore.

In one sense of the word, you are correct. However, I think it has more to do with people not being taught personal responsibility than not being taught about how an angry, vengeful god is going to cast them into some fiery pit if they don't do as they are ordered to do.

Originally posted by zysin5
Heheh are you thumping your bible at me?? If so, Id love to hear what you think hell is, and just where you stand..?

Actually my Bible is upstairs,.

I cannot know what hell is completely like, but I have some thoughts that I believe have come to me from my life as a christian, and all that that means.

If someone accepts Christ that means their sins have been transferred to Christ and in return Christ transfers His righteousness to you and you are forgiven of those sins, and they are no longer a part of you. They are a debt that has been 'Paid In Full' by Christ, just like the last payment on a car loan. You no longer owe the bank anything for that car and the bank no longer has a security interest in that car, it's free and clear.

So for someone who has decided to reject Christ, their debt of sins is retained by them.

It follows them after death. Death for the unsaved results in eternity in hell.

Now after saying all that, the fire and brimstone of hell being literal fire and brimstone, I don't know. Also most people believe satan and his demons are allowed to torment you in hell(I don't believe this). They will be suffering their own torment for rebelling against God.

This is what I do know about hell. Your sins have followed you, so for all of eternity they remain with you and they are the reason you are in hell and you will know and understand that. For all of eternity you are thinking about them(but the catch is now in eternity, you know they are sin, there not "fun" anymore. You KNOW they were/are an affront to God). So you can think about all 62,312 that you did, because you still have your memory. Then when you get done thinking about the 63,312th one, you begin thinking about them again.

On top of that you will remember all the times you were told about the salvation there was in Jesus Christ. But you CHOSE to reject Him.

Now go further, My ex father-in-law has emphysema brought on by smoking, which was a choice he made. No one forced him to destroy the body God gave him by smoking. What if his emphysema follows him to hell. For all eternity his suffers from the ravages of that disease.

Also you know that God was right and you were wrong and you will never be able to change that, you will understand and accept it. (You may not feel like accepting it, but you will know your condition is fixed, and nothing can change that). You will know you cannot leave.

Hell is also a lonely time. There is no indication that you will see anybody else who is in hell.

Plus it lasts for FOREVER and it's a torment of your own choosing, that was escapable.

Now comes the time when people ask, "How could God do this?"

Remember He has provided the way to escape hell (through making the choice to receive Jesus Christ) and never go there. He will allow people to go there if they CHOOSE to. So don't blame God for a choice you made.








[edit on 17-7-2007 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth


In one sense of the word, you are correct. However, I think it has more to do with people not being taught personal responsibility than not being taught about how an angry, vengeful god is going to cast them into some fiery pit if they don't do as they are ordered to do.

But..........the fact of being told that there is an eternal place of torment is a sure attention getter, that should lead one to want to study up on how to avoid it.

[edit on 17-7-2007 by dbrandt]

I don’t think it really matters. We tend to get so caught up in the little things that we miss the big picture. Is there an eternal Hell? All we know is that we don’t know for sure, the Bible can lead one to think different things. Does it make a difference? NO.

We aren’t supposed to live a Christian life out of fear of Hell but rather faith and the love of the Lord. What if there is no fire and brimstone eternal Hell and I am sinning by telling non-believers that there is one and possibly turning them away from the word of the Lord? What if there is a literal eternal Hell and by telling non-believers there isn’t I am influencing them to keep on their path.

If you aren’t sure of something it is best not to say that you have certain knowledge, because if you are wrong there could “be Hell to pay.”

This is why we don’t “throw pearls before swine” for what do swine know of pearls? Paul told us that when he came to a new town, he would simply tell the basics, that the Christ died for their sins. Those called to believe and love the Christ would find the rest in due time, and all that ask for the rest will get it.

Don’t contribute to the madness in the soul of “madnessinmysoul.” You don’t want his salvation or lack of salvation to burden your soul, and it may if you steer him in the wrong direction. Sorry madnessinmysoul to use you as an example, but you do seem to stand out as an atheist who is VERY interested in the conversations of Christians and therefore a perfect example.

NOW, all that said, I tend to think of Hell as a place of cleansing. I can’t quote scripture to back it up, just my own thoughts, not a belief. If I am wrong, it doesn’t matter. What can I, a little human, know of the afterlife?

I think the old way of offering sacrifice is one of the clues. We would ritually slaughter an animal and then dash its blood at the alter and burn its body, hence the fire. The fire was not punishment or torture, it was cleansing.

And just over the wall from where the Christ taught people would use “brimstone” to cleanse clothing. The brimstone would wash away the impurities, all the stains, just as the fire would. It was also used in the ritual cleansing of the temple.

I don’t think it was any accident that the fire and brimstone concept of Hell was used and seems to fulfill and explain what we were doing with the blood sacrifices. Remember, the old laws were precursors to the new ones. We were shown what must be done to cleanse in the old laws, and we are told what must happen to us in the future to be clean.

Now this is just what I think. If I am wrong, I am wrong and I don’t care. I live life as a Christian not because I fear Hell but because I love the Lord and all his creation.


[edit on 17-7-2007 by cavscout]

Originally posted by cavscout



What if there is no fire and brimstone eternal Hell and I am sinning by telling non-believers that there is one and possibly turning them away from the word of the Lord?

That happens often. I have talked to many people who quit going to church years ago because they said they just couldn't worship some entity that was licking his chops at the thought of throwing billions of people into a "Lake of fire." I told them that I could completely understand where they were coming from.



[edit on 17-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Also just a sidenote which I actually thought of just now as I was writing this. The rich man in this incident may not have been monetarily rich. It may be that this rich man was someone who was a pharisee who would be "rich" by knowing what is contained in the scriptures, yet didn't believe.

Luke ch 15 & 16 tell us the pharisee's were there listening to these stories also. So when a man named Lazarus did come back from the dead, they would have remembered this story, yet they still did not believe the truth of salvation and Christ.

Besides teaching us valuable lessons, this story Christ told, appears to be a prophetic story also.

WOW!!!!!!!!!! This is one of those things that are hidden in the Bible.

Nice revelation!

Originally posted by cavscout



Don’t contribute to the madness in the soul of “madnessinmysoul.” You don’t want his salvation or lack of salvation to burden your soul, and it may if you steer him in the wrong direction. Sorry madnessinmysoul to use you as an example, but you do seem to stand out as an atheist who is VERY interested in the conversations of Christians and therefore a perfect example.

Cavscout, while Madness does aggravate me from time to time, I have to say that I am going to defend him here. I actually think that Madness, without putting words in his mouth, wants to believe. However, he is looking for someone to show him some kind of proof so that he can believe.

Unfortunately, unless God decides to intervene in his life at some point in time, I am afraid that the proof that Madness is seeking will never be forthcoming.

[edit on 17-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
That happens often. I have talked to many people who quit going to church years ago because they said they just couldn't worship some entity that was licking his chops at the thought of throwing billions of people into a "Lake of fire." I told them that I could completely understand where they were coming from.

Then you get what I am saying.

Now that is not to say that if the Lord does punish us, or if we punish ourselves, that I am against him for that. Who I am to judge the Lord?

The point, though, is to stick with the basics and help people get on the right path. Staying on that path need not be made harder by anything we say to the new believer.

The Lord alone knows when to reveal something to a person. I am sure that all of us who claim to have any sort of relationship with the Lord know exactly what I am talking about. He makes you aware when you are ready and when you need it, and when the truth is made known it is often erected in your path like brick wall you didn’t see.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Cavscout, while Madness does aggravate me from time to time, I have to say that I am going to defend him here. I actually think that Madness, without putting words in his mouth, wants to believe. However, he is looking for someone to show him some kind of proof so that he can believe.

Unfortunately, unless God decides to intervene in his life at some point in time, I am afraid that the proof that Madness is seeking will never be forthcoming.

Oh, I didn’t mean to trash madness. He knows exactly what I am saying even if he does sometimes play dumb as to the intentions of a persons words when he wants his feelings to be hurt. I think he will come around in time, but any faith he may gain will not be found here on ATS. We probably do more harm then good with him and some others who, although they think we are foolish, can’t resist spending much of their time on Christian topics. They are on those topics because deep down inside they know the truth, however they are bitter about something, or maybe just so smart they are outsmarting themselves.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
they just couldn't worship some entity that was licking his chops at the thought of throwing billions of people into a "Lake of fire."

And exactly where in the Bible does it say this?

Don't bother looking it doesn't say it anywhere. It does however say the exact opposite in several places.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth


Unfortunately, unless God decides to intervene in his life at some point in time, I am afraid that the proof that Madness is seeking will never be forthcoming.

I would say that God is intervening in his life right now.



1)Computers have been invented

2)Madness has access to a computer

3)ATS exists

4)Madness found ATS

5)Madness is alive right now and has the ability to comunicate and understand(not everyone has this ability)

6)ATS has real christians on it.

7)Madness is hearing the Gospel

8)the Holy Spirit is calling him/her right now

(There are probably at least dozens more items you could place in this chart of what God has/is doing for madness)

He/She has all the information needed already to believe in Christ. God may chose to do something more dramatic in the future or He may have already done it. But if God hasn't or doesn't Madness is without excuse, it is his/her choice to receive Christ.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
they just couldn't worship some entity that was licking his chops at the thought of throwing billions of people into a "Lake of fire."

And exactly where in the Bible does it say this?

Don't bother looking it doesn't say it anywhere. It does however say the exact opposite in several places.

Christians have done a very good job of mythologizing "hell" to be this fiery pit of "Lake of fire" which few will escape. So, you're recanting what the church has proclaimed hell to be for centuries?


You see, it doesn't really matter to me because I have no fear of being cast into some mythological fiery pit. However, for those who haven't bothered to examine what God is really like, all of these threats that the church threw into the collective consciousness of humanity until about 30 years ago, is very frightening to them. And,yes, such doctrine does cause people to turn away from worshiping God. I can't say that I blame them.

If someone told me to worship some entity that is going to cast many, if not most, into a "Lake of fire," and I actually believed it, I wouldn't be eager to worship such a figure either.








[edit on 18-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

So, you're recanting what the church has proclaimed hell to be for centuries?


all of these threats that the church threw into the collective consciousness of humanity until about 30 years ago, is very frightening to them.

Please define the church that you are talking about?