Officials: Turkish troops hunting Kurds in Iraq

Originally posted by Navieko
Here's another report giving a bit more insight into the history of this whole mess. Turkey launches large-scale attack on Kurdish militants

From the Source above



50k troops sure sounds like a major operation to me. So who do we believe the AP who is now reporting only hundreds, or this Russian source ?




[edit on 6/6/2007 by shots]

The Russian source has always been very reliable... probably one of the least biased I've come around anyway. I'd certainly believe rian.ru over AP anyday.

Originally posted by shots
I was wondering if perhaps The Turkish government might have an eye on the area because of its Oil reserves kind of like back when Iraq had an eye on Kuwait. Granted not the same; just a thought I had considering the fact that Turkey did not grant the US access through Turkey during the start of the conflict/war which hampered the US from the start.

Iraq and Kuwait have oil fields that are shared. They are massive fields that run underneath both countries. It wasn't that Iraq had their eyes on Kuwait but Kuwait that was pumping more than the agreed to amounts of oil per day causing the price of oil to drop. The food for Oil program being the only way to generate an Oil income was getting lower and lower due to the fact that Kuwait was breaking the agreements. If Hussein wanted their oil he could have just kept pumping like the Kuwaitis were doing.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN


Iraq and Kuwait have oil fields that are shared. .

I understand that part and that was not my point I know darned well the back in the 60s and again in the 90s Saddam claimed Kuwait was a province of Iraq and did belong to them

It was with this background that in August 1990 Saddam made his next foolish move; he invaded Kuwait. He did this solely to pick up much needed cash via additional oil revenues. An ASA tongue in cheek note is that Saddam claimed that historically Kuwait was a province of Iraq and therefore Kuwait belonged to Iraq.

Source

He focused entirely on trying to prove that Kuwait belonged to Iraq from the point of view of history, politics and economics.
Source

This claims Kwuait belonged to Iraq in the 50s go figure

The Iraqis argued that Kuwait had belonged to the Ottoman Empire along with Iraq and was governed under the same province; therefore, it belonged with Iraq. The Iraqi prime minister stated that ethnically and socially Iraq and Kuwait were as one. To further their claim, the Iraqis massed troops along the border. Abdul Allah Al-Sabah, the ruler of Kuwait, appealed to the British for help and in July, the British landed forces on Kuwait's beaches. On July 20, the Arab League, formed in 1945, embraced Kuwait as a member and refuted the Iraqi claim. The Iraqis withdrew their troops but did not drop their claim until October, 1963.
From 1960s

[edit on 6/6/2007 by shots]

Originally posted by Grailkeeper
and the pandemonium ensues....

Just when it can't get any darker in the ME.

I wonder if its just a 'testing ground' for future events, you know.. testing the water sort of speak.

......riiiight.

This is actually common place.

AND if you READ the reports, the Turkish government got a "Approval" from the Arbil government, to ALLOW them to enter Iraqi territory.

The move is in result from rebels attacking a Turkish military outpost, no one was killed but rebels persist to fight across the border into Turkey on Turkish military positions.

The attacks are approved of by and most likely supported by the PKK (largest Kurdish political movement) HOWEVER is NOT recognized by either the government of Arbil (Capital of Kurdistan) NOR the PRIME MINISTER of Southern Kurdistan (yes..... its in Northern Iraq but they call it Southern Kurdistan) This government is recognized but not supported by the United States and the Iraqi government, and while independence is not looked on favorably at this time from any party involved, even the Kurds, their government and Prime Minister are recognized as legal and legit governing bodies/head.

The attacks are sporadic fighting with TURKISH rebels from Central Kurdistan (now you see why North is South) and cause just as much hell for Turks as it does for Southern Kurds... as increased Turkish military presence inhibits the oil/drug and weapons smuggling through Central Southern Kurdistan, as well as imports of other material, especially construction material. Increased armies on borders are never good.

TURKEY is actually planning a tens of thousand man march into Iraq to attack and neutralize the Kurdish Opposition within the PKK operating out of the Northern border area, however the United States will not permit such bold moves for many reasons, first and foremost the expected battle field is over 100 miles long, and include locations where US troops are located, and most importantly Southern Kurdistan currently has a 250,000 man army ready to move at a moments notice. Arbil can fully engage in war as the United States has fewer then 100 service men within the borders of Kurdistan at this present time, no American lives will be put in jeopardy. The army is trained, equipped and financed by the United States, they provide the security for all of Northern Iraq (Not a single suicide bomb, no fighting, but hey, it doesn't make good TV for Americans.)

Ankara and Arbil will not come nose to nose on this issue, political pressure will be mounted, but any massive military move will be contained within the borders of the Turkish state to avoid large scale confrontations. The last massive move into Kurdish territory in Iraq was in 1997 with approval of Saddam to knock out PKK operatives, the battle field was massive and the cost on both sides high. Kurdistan is now ingrained, fully trained and able to match Turkish military abilities to a point.. Turkey is large and more powerful which brings about the biggest reason the United States and other Middle East governments caution about.

Turkey has a history of overkill, they are ruthless in the sense that they put down any opposition. A move of the likes that Ankara speaks of will result in the deaths of thousands of civilians, and thousands of troops. If the war escalates a degeneration of Southern Kurdish security will result in exploitation of the land by terrorist, militants and religious dissidents. The result is absolute hell, something the United States WILL NOT HAVE.. the deaths of thousands, not to mention small scale genocide within the borders of Turkey its self. Southern Kurdistan also has the ability now to sway any "fence sitting" Kurdish peoples within the borders of Turkey, the entire situation is bleak for Turkey politically, financially, as it is for Kurdistan.

In the end the Kurdish or American army will have to step up patrols, and further incursions may take place, however not unusual, it MUST be watched by international members to ensure this does not escalate fully...

The last thing the middle east needs right now is open war with 2 individual states (one a state within 3 states) and the absolute chaos that would ensue.

First 5-stars to rockpuck on his analysis.

Currently USA is holding back the Turkish military that is pulling its reins and wants to destroy PKK and its supporters in Norther Iraq. USA has no sympathies to PKK, but any large scale offensive into Autonomic Kurdish areas in N-Iraq would result a counter offensive by the Kurdish forces that sympatise PKK. This would leave northern Iraq in a power vacuum, that would probably result an increased insurgent action in the region.

100$ question is how does the new more islamic government feel about the Islamic insurgents/al-qaeda in Iraq? An attack to the northern border of Iraq would leave the majority of kurdish population vulnerable to extermination/terror by the Insurgents. In other words, by simply drawing the Kurdish military into a conflict, Ankara could allow the Iraqi insurgency to do the dirty work (genocide) for them, no more problems with independent Kurdistan.

Hey! Wait a minute...

The Turks are fighting terrorism.

That makes incursions into another country and invading it perfectly acceptable, doesn't it?

This is Blasphamus behavior, that if it escalates, will only push the region into further chaos. Northern Iraq, (aka Kurdistan.. give it a few years) has been the bight spot in these horrible past few years in the Middle East. They have a working goverment and the region has FAR less insugent attacks then the areas near Bhagdahd. The Kurds are our friends, we have trained them to an extent, they helped us when we went into Iraq, they fought alongside our troops.

I have also had questions about Turkey, and now they are just screeming that they don't give a rats ass about the US, if Turkey thinks they can undermine the US it NEEDS to be shown what happens.

This world is heading towards a showdown, and how many friends do we have when the world gets messy. Iran, N Korea, Russia wouldn't sitick with us, Turkey isn't showing that it is a friend latly, and which way would China fall...

Its like the whole world is getting soaked with Kerosine and is just waiting for a spark somewhere to ignight the whole thing, and send the world into WWIII

Sorry for the ramble

northwolf:

but any large scale offensive into Autonomic Kurdish areas in N-Iraq would result a counter offensive by the Kurdish forces that sympatise PKK.

Just remember the Kurdish government does not sympathize with PKK activist exactly.. its a weird relationship.. the PKK is actually seen as terroristic in nature in their eyes, and the only real sympathy they feel to the PKK is that they are a suppressed people and only wish to have a homeland.

neformore:

Hey! Wait a minute...

The Turks are fighting terrorism.

That makes incursions into another country and invading it perfectly acceptable, doesn't it?

Actually yes. If someone attacks you, they attack the sovereignty of your border and right to protection.. even if the ones attacking are suppressed by you, terrorism sponsored by a group is an act of war and the follow up retalitorial attack is perfectly acceptable in the worlds eyes.

Turkey is being allowed to carry out counter terrorism activities so long as it is under control. Ankara however is pushing for a massive assault, currently it is just a few thousand and that includes support personal, it is a small isolated incursion.

Iran also crosses the border to fight PKK and other political dissidents in Iraq, because of the problems they have in the north western region in regards to Kurds...

All the fighting with Kurds and so on, you would wonder why they don't just give the land to the Kurds, after all in Turkey and Iran the territory they fight for is well over 85% Kurdish. Bad luck for them, Southern Kurdistan sits on Iraq's second largest oil reserve, while in Turkey and Iran they sit on the Middle East largest fresh water reserve. It is, suppression and war for water control.

But neformore, it depends on what exactly you consider an invasion, or incursion. What the United States did was an invasion, and no one is stupid enough to do that, while what Turkey, and many other nations including Lebanon, Israel, and so forth, are incursions aimed at threats, not nations.

I have also had questions about Turkey, and now they are just screeming that they don't give a rats ass about the US, if Turkey thinks they can undermine the US it NEEDS to be shown what happens.

This world is heading towards a showdown, and how many friends do we have when the world gets messy. Iran, N Korea, Russia wouldn't sitick with us, Turkey isn't showing that it is a friend latly, and which way would China fall...

To be fair to Turkey, they have been given the shaft by the Western Powers, and I have no doubt are moving to align with Moscow and other Eastern Powers...

Turkey wants in the EU, Europeans said no way, you must be white and Christian (France's biggest reason for blocking them) ... Turkey has done considerable work to westernize in the hopes of joining the EU and its prosperity, however last year it seemed that Turkey has given up, when the EU rejected them and offered them instead a bundle of economic options and agreements, which Turkey obviously took as a slap in the face...

The United States has also been having problems with Turkey over the years, including Turkey refusing to assist America in the war, as they feared a Kurdish rebellion (had nothing to do with liking Iraq) Turkey is now seen as a nation that wants the benefits, without the friendship, either way Turkey will not be joining the EU, feeling isolated it must now look for relationships else where, and if the West does not want Turkey, you can bet the East does.

I would agree, that slowly the worlds nations are coming to a showdown, and it would appear that we are seeing the battle lines being drawn, the alliances and agreements are being made, it would appear this next war will be West vs. East.

Double post.....

[edit on 6/7/2007 by Rockpuck]

SINGAPORE (AP) -- U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates on Sunday cautioned Turkey against sending troops into northern Iraq, as it has threatened, to hunt down Kurdish rebels it accuses of carrying out terrorist raids inside Turkey.

"We hope there would not be a unilateral military action across the border into Iraq," Gates told a news conference after meetings here with Asian government officials.

Yes Mr. Gates, unilateral military action can be an unwise and disastrous endeavor.

Tensions just keep rising with the temperature. I feel that the region is going to erupt shortly and Bush's cryptic remarks during his recent address that "We can expect more American and Iraqi casualties" this summer, new plots being thrown thwarted that could have been "worse than 9/11" (how long did that sit on that one) and another al-qaeda tape release is a sure indicator or red flag that its about to hit the fan.

Remind the of the fear is usually the first step in the process.