Molten metal vs. Molten steel

Originally posted by micpsi
The molten metal flowing out of the 81st floor of the South Tower just before it was destroyed was not steel but lead from the casings of many racks of lead batteries stored on that very floor.

You make a very good argument there. It sounds to be the most plausible explaination for that event. Unfortunately, this thread is about the pools of molten steel in the basements after the collapses. Thanks for the explaination of the falling metal though.

Originally posted by bsbray11
JIMC, there are multiples of testimonies relating that some metal was flowing like lava, or steel in a foundry, at Ground Zero, particularly underground and deep in the pits. Then we have a diagram from a team of geologists at the site, showing where the molten steel (their words, not mine) was located, so clean-up personnel would be better prepared for what was ahead of them.

Isn't it funny that when a firefighter states that there's a huge hole in a building and it's ready to "blow up". Everyone execpts his testimony and suddenly he has more knowledge than a structural engineer when it comes to building collapses.

But when a firefighter (structural engineers, geologists etc.) state that there were literally pools of molten STEEL "flowing like lava", suddenly those people have no credibility anymore. Uncanny isn't it?

Originally posted by micpsi
I have read an e-mail from the boss of Controlled Demolitions Inc, one of the four companies contracted to clear up Ground Zero, in which he said that he did not PERSONALLY see any pools of molten metal at Ground Zero. His well-known remarks were misunderstood. They were based upon what some of his contractors had supposedly told him. So this story about underground molten metal is based upon hearsay from anonymous sources. I put no weight in them.

You put no weight in them because you refuse to see the truth. Based on hearsay from anonymous sources? Why would they lie? Is this an anonymous source?

As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running. What concrete that wasn't pulverized into dust will continue to be removed for weeks to come. The structural steel is being removed and shipped by barge to be recycled."

Those words were spoken by the lead engineer himself, Leslie Robinson. Anonymous sources in deed. Try agian.

Originally posted by Ahabstar
Blacksmiths that smelt their on metal for casting can melt steel with charcol brickets depending on how they build their foundry. I have watched a guy melt a circular saw sawblade in a fire made from logs and sticks and had a hand cranked blower. His fire container was just an regular steel 55 gallon barrel. he started his fire with a newspaper and a Bic lighter. That was exotic as it got. He made a halfway decent homemade knife and sold it to the guy that gave him the sawblade for $10 for his labor. It took about 45 minutes total.

Couple things here. You say a hand cranked blower. What was blowing oxygen into the basements of the trade centers when there is suppossedly a 110 story building pancaked into the basements?

His fire container was just a regular steel barrel. If this foundry was so hot, why didn't the steel container melt also? I'll tell ya why. It didn't melt because it wasn't inside the foundry. All ingredients have to be kept perfectly in balance for it to work. Anything that lets the heat escape will hinder it. In this example, the air that seperates the barrel from the foundry was enough to hinder the melting of the steel barrel.

See how making a foundry is very hard for a natural phenomenon? It would have to be perfect. But, I will concede that there is that chance that everything just lined up perfectly (like everything else that day).

I can see that pools of molten steel could have easily happened at the towers. With heat transferance over time buried under all that concrete acting like a kiln. When they finally cooled, they would make intersting shapes. I can even see the so called "meteorites" being formed this way.

Except for they were fused together. If they are right in reporting the fusion that is. The meteorites aren't just steel and concrete that have melted and then solidified. The report is that they fused together to make a new compound. I'm not sure if that was reporter sensationalism or not. But, I would say that the fact that there is still paper in the meteorites would tell me that they weren't formed by molten steel (or any molten metal for that matter). Why have no tests been done on the meteorites?

Originally posted by JIMC5499
I won't argue with there being small pools of molten METAL. I have seen nothing to prove that these were pools of STEEL. Some of the pictures here have shown hot steel. My brother-in-law was looking at the picture of the claw removing the beams and said that he sees stuff like that all of the time at work when they use an Oxygen Lance to cut large beams.Oxygen Lance

So, what in your opinion would create an effect the same as an Oxygen Lance? Remember it has to be naturally occuring. Or are you saying that the beams in the photos are that way because they were using oxygen lances?

What about all the reports of molten steel flowing? I guess eyewitness testimony is only worth something if it coincides with your beliefs?

Is it possible the subways running under the WTC acted as blowers allowing as much oxygen to the fires as possible? as the fire burned and consumed its oxygen it would have created a vacuum pulling oxygen through the subway tunnels right into the heart of these deep set fires adding to the kiln effect.

Originally posted by bokinsmowl
Is it possible the subways running under the WTC acted as blowers allowing as much oxygen to the fires as possible? as the fire burned and consumed its oxygen it would have created a vacuum pulling oxygen through the subway tunnels right into the heart of these deep set fires adding to the kiln effect.

Wouldn't cool air blowing in actually cool the process instead of heating it? What I mean is that at a foundry, they blow heated air into the foundry. I'm not saying it couldn't happen but did WTC 7 have a subway in it's basement to feed the fires?

they blow heated air into the foundry

im curious if the benifit of the oxygen overrides the benifit of the air being heated...i'd assume the air being heated is for efficiency sake, IMO. on that note, traveling through a tunnel that had fires burning up above it could possibly heat the air as it moves through? i know cold air sinks but surely the air moving through the tunnels would be hotter than when it first enters the tunnel. ever been in a subway during the summer? its hot as hell down there even without the close proximity fires.

[edit on 6/6/2007 by bokinsmowl]

Do you happen to have a map of the tunnels? I'd like to place it over the map BsBray posted and see if the hot spots coincide with the tunnels. If they do, I'd say we might have our culprit. Any help?

As we speak im trying to locate a map oriented in the right direction to overlay on BsBray's map. if worse comes to worse ill pick up a subway map and scan it in with the right orientation and size.

The tunnels would have been blocked by debris.

It would not have acted like an air inducted forge if that is what is being implied here.

Think of a bonfire pit (seven stories deep) filled with cement dust and some hot coals...

Will a gopher tunnel induct air? Probably not as the air would need to be pushed through multiple stories of debris.

[edit on 6-6-2007 by Pootie]

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by JIMC5499
So, what in your opinion would create an effect the same as an Oxygen Lance? Remember it has to be naturally occuring. Or are you saying that the beams in the photos are that way because they were using oxygen lances?

What about all the reports of molten steel flowing? I guess eyewitness testimony is only worth something if it coincides with your beliefs?

The beams being moved by the demolition claw could be glowing because they were just cut free from the tangle of debris.

I've seen nothing to convince me that there was molten steel flowing. I'm convinced that there may have been molten metal, but I've seen nothing to convince me that the metal was steel.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
I've seen nothing to convince me that there was molten steel flowing. I'm convinced that there may have been molten metal, but I've seen nothing to convince me that the metal was steel.

What other metals were available in enough quantity to even pool in the first place? The only thing would be aluminum in my mind. And we've already ruled out that molten aluminum would be misinterpreted for steel because of color. If you saw a pool of silvery liquid, would you call it molten steel? I doubt you would, even if you'd never seen molten steel or molten aluminum before. Just a guess.

Will a gopher tunnel induct air? Probably not as the air would need to be pushed through multiple stories of debris.

i just dont see the tunnels being blocked off enough to be "air tight"... those fires were strong enough to create a pretty good vacuum i'd assume. air has a way of finding its way through especially when its being sucked.

ps. still looking for a good diagram of the subway layout

Originally posted by JIMC5499
I won't argue with there being small pools of molten METAL.

Then what was it? I just asked this.

And what does that diagram I posted REALLY show, if not where molten steel was located? Again, it was NOT the general location of hot spots in general.

Originally posted by bokinsmowl
im curious if the benifit of the oxygen overrides the benifit of the air being heated...

Oxygen is not a "benefit" for hydrocarbon fire, it's a necessity. What's blown into a furnace IS pre-heated oxygen.

i'd assume the air being heated is for efficiency sake, IMO.

It's for maintaining temperatures required for melting iron/steel. Cold air would be a heat sink, just as cold air blowing through the towers, or their rubble piles, would also be a heat sink, and so would the thousands of tons of steel.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
The beams being moved by the demolition claw could be glowing because they were just cut free from the tangle of debris.

Wow, JIMC. Would they REALLY be glowing simply from being cut with a lance or thermite or etc.? Because I have never once in my entire life seen anything cut through steel AND heat a whole big chunk of it to orange/yellow glowing. In other words, until I see otherwise, this to me is extremely unrealistic, and you're more or less talking out of your ass. Those things only cause very localized heating, and that's the point. The heat required to do what is seen in the photo must be tremendous by comparison.

Originally posted by Griff
What other metals were available in enough quantity to even pool in the first place? The only thing would be aluminum in my mind. And we've already ruled out that molten aluminum would be misinterpreted for steel because of color. If you saw a pool of silvery liquid, would you call it molten steel? I doubt you would, even if you'd never seen molten steel or molten aluminum before. Just a guess.

There are dozens of metals that were there in sufficient quantities. As a matter of fact it doesn't have to be just one type of metal. Any molten metal found would have to be a mixture of several different types.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
Any molten metal found would have to be a mixture of several different types.

Yes. So, let's see what metals there would be and see what their melting temps are.

I'm only going to list ones that have a melting temp lower than steel.

Aluminum, Brass, bronze, copper, gold, lead, magnesium, phospherus, silver, tin, zinc.

If you think of any more metals that could be there that have a melting temp lower than steel, please post them.

Could you point out what metals you think would be in excess to maintain pools for weeks.

Originally posted by Griff
Yes. So, let's see what metals there would be and see what their melting temps are.

I'm only going to list ones that have a melting temp lower than steel.

Aluminum, Brass, bronze, copper, gold, lead, magnesium, phospherus, silver, tin, zinc.

If you think of any more metals that could be there that have a melting temp lower than steel, please post them.

Could you point out what metals you think would be in excess to maintain pools for weeks.

I'm more interested in how temperatures stayed hot enough to maintain pools of molten metal for weeks. If such pools existed for weeks. I'm not denying the molten metal, you have convinced me there. It is the duration that these pools were supposed to have remained molten that I am questioning. I spend quite a bit of time in and around foundries and know what they have to do to obtain the molten steel to pour in my castings. (I use a 3D printer to make cores for sand casting of prototype machine parts.).

I can accept that there could have been areas where the temperature was high enough to melt some metals. I can accept that some of these areas may have been insulated enough by debris to have maintained their temperatures for a period of time, but you are not going to convince me that there were large pools of molten steel weeks after 9-11.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
but you are not going to convince me that there were large pools of molten steel weeks after 9-11.

I guess there's no point in talking with you then because you've already made up your mind. Even if we showed you a video of molten steel flowing, we wouldn't convince you by your own admission.

I hope you ment that "so far, you haven't been convinced". Not "you are not going to convince".