Nobody doubts that 9-11 was commited by government insiders anymore, right?

Originally posted by Zaphod58
They chose to save money by cutting back on the alert force, IN THE 1990s, and it came back to bite them in the butt in the end.

Or could it be that they were paving the way for 9/11? You could look at it both ways. Whether you think "they" were involved or you think "they" weren't.

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by Zaphod58
They chose to save money by cutting back on the alert force, IN THE 1990s, and it came back to bite them in the butt in the end.

Or could it be that they were paving the way for 9/11? You could look at it both ways. Whether you think "they" were involved or you think "they" weren't.

Sorry for sticking my nose in here....but Griff, are you implying that the government has been planning this since the end of the cold war? Through 2 or three administrations? ( just asking )

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
Sorry for sticking my nose in here....but Griff, are you implying that the government has been planning this since the end of the cold war? Through 2 or three administrations? ( just asking )

I know answering a question with a question is not a good way to debate, but let me ask you this. If it was an inside job, do you really think they could have pulled it off in the 9 months that GW was in office without the help of the previous admins? I don't.

Also, who has been in office since the cold war ended that didn't have the last name Bush or Clinton? Answer: None.

[edit on 6/2/2007 by Griff]

It just seems weird that no jets intercepted the planes. The air traffic controllers had their suspicion's and noticing aircraft going way off course, those planes would have been up in the air or already in the air to make sure nothing was wrong. Where I live F-16's were always in the air even before Sept. 11, 2001 and this is in California. You would think those aircraft on the east coast would be prepared even with budget cuts and its default for them to go after suspicious aircraft. I mean seriously the east coast of the US is the prime target of any terrorist thats where our central government is. And I don't think its a total inside job either but somebody did help these hijackers fly and be trained killers.

Originally posted by hikix
The reality is a thread comes up like this about every week... this will eventually turn into a war, and you will get a good 4 pages of replies. The people who believe in the official story (yes, they exist on this site) will never give in, no matter how much evidence you provide, and vice-versa.

It is a good thing we have members that believe different sides of this story, but time and time again when this issue comes up the thread turns into a war.

......and its already starting

well 5 pages and counting... i guess if you wanna rack up points on ATS, all u gotta do is mention 9/11 and you'll get tons of replies from people arguing with eachother. Ok, im done.... carry on

Originally posted by grassyknoll7
It just seems weird that no jets intercepted the planes. The air traffic controllers had their suspicion's and noticing aircraft going way off course, those planes would have been up in the air or already in the air to make sure nothing was wrong. Where I live F-16's were always in the air even before Sept. 11, 2001 and this is in California. You would think those aircraft on the east coast would be prepared even with budget cuts and its default for them to go after suspicious aircraft. I mean seriously the east coast of the US is the prime target of any terrorist thats where our central government is. And I don't think its a total inside job either but somebody did help these hijackers fly and be trained killers.

Because the planes going up prior to 9/11 were intercepting planes coming INTO US airspace. There's a stretch of airspace out around the 12 mile limit called the ADIZ (Air Defense Identification Zone). Any plane coming into the country has to have the proper codes showing clearance, and be talking to air traffic control when they enter the ADIZ. If you aren't, then you get intercepted and identified. Planes INSIDE the United States are only intercepted when the FAA controller requests it, and it's not automatic. Planes can go off course for a variety of reasons.

[edit on 6/2/2007 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by Griff

I know answering a question with a question is not a good way to debate, but let me ask you this. If it was an inside job, do you really think they could have pulled it off in the 9 months that GW was in office without the help of the previous admins? I don't.

Also, who has been in office since the cold war ended that didn't have the last name Bush or Clinton? Answer: None.

[edit on 6/2/2007 by Griff]

No, i don't think that could happen. That is another key point to my not believing in a conspiracy.

That being said...Bush Sr. (or Reagan?) starts this 911 ball rolling...The plans then carry over to Clinton, then he carry's the plans to Dumbya? What if Gore won? What if Ross Perot Won the election? Why would a Democrat agree to the killing of thousands of Americans that a Republican draws up.... I dunno. This sound WAY to far out.....I would like to hear what you may be thinking on how this plan could have been carried out across administrations and partisian lines.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Planes INSIDE the United States are only intercepted when the FAA controller requests it, and it's not automatic. Planes can go off course for a variety of reasons.

But for over an hour with no communication? Plus, as far as I can remember, the FAA controllers did request it. Just that NORAD sent them in the wrong direction.

Either way it scares the hell out of me. We are either:

A. Incompetent. Which should scare the living hell out of anyone to begin with. If we can't stop a couple terrorists from highjacking planes and flying them into buildings, how are we to stop someone with a suitcase nuke or something similar?

B. Complicit. Which means they allowed it to happen and you can surmise the implications there.

Either way, someone should have been fired. Instead they get promoted. Red falg to me.

How much of that time was figuring out what was going on? It takes time to figure out whether you're looking at a simple mechanical malfunction causing a radio out situation, a hijacking, or a crashing plane. And they DID launch fighters, but they got over NY too late, and they wouldn't have been able to DO anything even if they had gotten there in time. The SYSTEM is what failed on 9/11. They thought they had a good system in place, and they found out the hard way that it sucked and was broken.

[edit on 6/2/2007 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
This sound WAY to far out.....I would like to hear what you may be thinking on how this plan could have been carried out across administrations and partisian lines.

Let me ask. Do you know anyone who works for the government? Does every job change when there is a new president? How long has Rummsfeld been in the government? Was he only in the government when a republican was in office?

My BF works for the State Department. He was a political appointee under Clinton. When Bush became POTUS, they didn't just automatically throw him out of his job. BTW, he still works for the DOS.

Furthermore, do you really think there's that much difference between Skull & Bones...err..I mean Dems and Reps?

Originally posted by Zaphod58
How much of that time was figuring out what was going on? It takes time to figure out whether you're looking at a simple mechanical malfunction causing a radio out situation, a hijacking, or a crashing plane.

You mean after 2 planes have already struck their targets, that they couldn't figure out what was going on?

And they DID launch fighters, but they got over NY too late, and they wouldn't have been able to DO anything even if they had gotten there in time.

So, you're saying that our defenses were in place to intercept someone comming into our airspace in enough time to stop them but one that's already in our airspace we can't stop?

The SYSTEM is what failed on 9/11. They thought they had a good system in place, and they found out the hard way that it sucked and was broken.

So, have we changed this failed system yet? I hope so.

Also, I did hear that Norad and the CIA were having exercises with the same scenario as 9/11. Also, I thought the air traffic controllers did request it as well and the reply from Norad was this real time or exercise?
The whole thing seems bizarre and the exercise seems like a cover up for something, I guess if the 9/11 hijackers didn't show up or something went wrong the government would say it was just an exercise no big deal. But hey I am still not sure what happened that day. The # ups on that day were totally present.

There was a lot of conflicting information all over that day. Flight 93 was THOUGHT to have landed in Cleveland. Even United thought it was on the ground, when it was still in flight.

I never said they couldn't stop them when they were already in our airspace, but everyone was caught flat footed, because all the training had been to stop waves of Soviet bombers coming into our airspace, with plenty of warning, and this involved planes that were already in US airspace, with no warning until it was already happening.

There have been changes made since 9/11.

Originally posted by Griff

Let me ask. Do you know anyone who works for the government? Does every job change when there is a new president? How long has Rummsfeld been in the government? Was he only in the government when a republican was in office?

My BF works for the State Department. He was a political appointee under Clinton. When Bush became POTUS, they didn't just automatically throw him out of his job. BTW, he still works for the DOS.

Furthermore, do you really think there's that much difference between Skull & Bones...err..I mean Dems and Reps?

Griff, what if someone gets elected that does not want to participate? They don't want to be involved in this massive attack against their own people. (im not saying the ideas DON'T cross people's minds from time to time so spare me with the Operation Northwoods drama) I understand that many people stay within the DOD through several administrations.

"Hey Georgie, welcome to the White House, make yourself at home, oh by the way...did your Dad or Bill tell you?....this fall we are planning on a False Flag Operation that will kill thousands of Americans. This plan will go perfectly and we can blame the Islamic extremists. Then, YOU get to seek revenge on Saddam by saying he is somehow involved." ......

Yeah a little sarcastic, but I mean hey... thats whats it is in a nutshell!

9/11 was ritual, to begin an irreversible chain of events.
The lowering of the veil. I understand it is a sensitive and delicate subject and i am not taking it lightly.... I believe the time consumption on the fine detail to be misleading.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
Griff, what if someone gets elected that does not want to participate? They don't want to be involved in this massive attack against their own people. (im not saying the ideas DON'T cross people's minds from time to time so spare me with the Operation Northwoods drama) I understand that many people stay within the DOD through several administrations.

Well, for one, I don't think the POTUS would have been involved at all in the planning. Plausible deniability and all that.

If it was an inside job, I believe it would have been so clandestine that no one other than the planners would have been aware what was really being planned.

My comments before about the POTUS being a Bush or Clinton was to illustrate that the same people have been in the government since the cold war. Not that the Bush's or Clinton's were the planners. Does that make sense?

[edit on 6/2/2007 by Griff]

[edit on 6/2/2007 by Griff]

Um, i understand where you are coming from. This is as far fetched as the Judy Woods theories. Sorry Griff, all respect to you, but I don't see it going that way.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
Um, i understand where you are coming from. This is as far fetched as the Judy Woods theories. Sorry Griff, all respect to you, but I don't see it going that way.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. No problem. Take care.

But please, don't lump me in with Judy Wood. Thanks.

Another bait thread

My wife's giving me the evil eye so no time to read all the replies. I'll respond to your original question.

You have this completely backwards. The number of people who believe in the 9/11 Conspiracies is tiny. That is the nature of conspiracy theories in general. The vast majority of people think this is crazy talk. If you bury yourself in whats on these conspiracy boards it would be easy to think that. One of the quickest ways to embrace ignorance is to fool yourself into thinking belief in these things is widespread because it is not.

There are however many people upset about the war on both sides of the issue. Even devout George Bush haters don't believe he had anything to do with the terrorist attack. Most see it as a failure of our intelligence community that made 9/11 possible. If a large number of people believed this it would be covered daily on the mainstream news sources. When they cover it now they usually pick a guest who looks foolish and incapable of defending their position.

I'm sure my words will upset someone but that does not change the facts.

What I thought was ridiculous, was that after 9/11 every government agency was saying that no one had heard the idea of making a plane a weapon. I mean wtf. Even before 9/11 the threat of terrorism was very real. You know there were analysts or our operatives thinking up these different worst case scenarios. Even CIA employees were saying that yeah there were different plans we had envisioned. Also, another ridiculous statement by the government was that the last two administrations lacked "imagination", pretty stupid, the president has enough things to worry about that's why he has these intelligence agencies under his command.