A Delusional Disorder (valid discussion)

Access Denied:

Actually it sounds like maybe you're the one being presumptive. We use radio and the whole point of SETI is another civilization equal to us likely would too. Since we’ve been using radio for 100 years or so, any civilization within 100 light years of us could have detected us by now and visa versa. Why haven’t we detected anything when we’re receiving light (and therefore radio too) from all around us covering millions of years of history?

Also, please provide some evidence to support your claim that “these beings can travel at the speed of light”. Why would they even need to?

The down and dirty (getting ready to dial into a conference call) is that the concept that the radio waves even exit our solar system is presumptive. We have received signals, all of which seem to have been deemed "bounceback" signals. Perhaps this is an artifact of the Van Allen type belts surrounding our solar system? Perhaps they are blocked from exiting somehow?

Then, if they do make it out, suppose that space is not "shaped" as you presume? Perhaps the warping due to the vast amounts of plasma (holding 99.99% of our universal mass, according to NASA's own Dr. Timothy Eastman). There is far too much presumption in the current model of the Universe for us to even consider evidence against it as a model, honestly. We are teaching the customary models in our schools, yet NASA and Goddard themselves are studying Plasma Cosmology on an official level, along with LANL.

At this stage, everything is presumptive, there are no facts. They all exist in the realm of possibility until we recieve further clarification. Have you seen any data taken from direct measurements while outside the solar system? If not, then we know nothing about what space really is. We only know our very, very local neighborhood. It helps to keep in mind that we are fools, whether we fancy ourselves as such or not.

Regarding speed of light travel, there is not evidence that it happens, outside of the disappearing and rapid acceleration. But, consider that you could literally disintegrate within the universal wavefront and reform yourself, if you had the technology. If you could convert yourself into the dataform version of yourself, you could actually achieve bilocation, which is what is referred to in Hindu and Buddhist texts, along with the New Testament.

i guess you are right..speed of light travel is not needed.

[edit on 26-6-2007 by bigfatfurrytexan]

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
the concept that the radio waves even exit our solar system is presumptive.

Not really, quasars emit light and radio waves, both of which we can detect, so there’s no need for any of those wild theories. Basically the “problem” (controversy within the scientific community) with SETI’s approach comes down to assumed transmitter signal strengths and practical receiver sensitivity. If “they” aren’t “yelling” loud enough our “ears” may not be good enough to hear it. This may change (the probability) with the new (Paul) Allen Telescope Array that just came on line though…This should expand our range out to ~1000 light years.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Regarding speed of light travel, there is not evidence that it happens, outside of the disappearing and rapid acceleration.

Sorry but that is NOT evidence of FTL travel. Picture a speeding bullet.

Later,

AD

[edit on 1-7-2007 by Access Denied]

There is absolutely no "delusional disorder," with John Lear period.

There are no credentials here in making such a clinical diagnosis, nor any assumption. It is not valid from an armchair psychology, none of which realizes the vile nature of social stigma which psychiatry in an amateur fashion projects and does little other than by denial alleviate. In unskilled hands which are abundant even in those who call themselves educated and professional, psychiatry might depart from its medical role and hurl vile terms or diagnoses on patients as a method of control. The end result is producing in the thusly weakened individual another customer for the trillion dollar coal tar derivative pharmaceutical monopoly cartel. Much more it is clear that psychiatrists have already disbarred themselves from all credibility when participating in various gulags and renditions.

"Delusional disorder," is a term of diagnosis used by medical professionals. It is about well being and health, and the effort to achieve it. No one has a "slight problem," in the context of the medical field, which is called upon only when there are actual problems. In other words you are either pregnant or you are not, when it concerns your diagnosis or state of health and well being.

Outside of that context and sometimes even within that context when professionals are forgetful about their obligations, it is less than useful or even deleterious.

I believe from at least a sample his videos, that John Lear is paying his own bills, and living a real life in his home. He is entitled to live his own life, to share his experience when he chooses, and not have unanswerable armchair authoritarian questions upon his free style of writing and discussion.

[edit on 1-7-2007 by SkipShipman]

de·lu·sion [di-loo-zhuhn] –noun

1. an act or instance of deluding.

2. the state of being deluded.

3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.

4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

Just sayin'

Originally posted by Access Denied

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
the concept that the radio waves even exit our solar system is presumptive.

Not really, quasars emit light and radio waves, both of which we can detect, so there’s no need for any of those wild theories. Basically the “problem” (controversy within the scientific community) with SETI’s approach comes down to assumed transmitter signal strengths and practical receiver sensitivity. If “they” aren’t “yelling” loud enough our “ears” may not be good enough to hear it. This may change (the probability) with the new (Paul) Allen Telescope Array that just came on line though…This should expand our range out to ~1000 light years.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Regarding speed of light travel, there is not evidence that it happens, outside of the disappearing and rapid acceleration.

Sorry but that is NOT evidence of FTL travel. Picture a speeding bullet.

Later,

AD

[edit on 1-7-2007 by Access Denied]

AD, you must differentiate between what constitutes evidence and what constitutes proof.

There IS a difference.

I will defend my assertion that having radio waves exit our solar system being presumptive, i think, until we actually are able to monitor the radio waves that exit the solar system from a location outside our solar system.

OK...i have quite a bit of experience in the mental health field. I have my own copy of the DSM - IV R.

If i perform a search of this document online, i get the following "Decision Tree" for diagnosing a delusional disorder.

www.psychiatryonline.com...

I wish to excerpt a piece that is vitally important in disputing the presentation by our very own Access Denied:

A common error regarding the differential diagnosis in this decision tree is to assume that a belief that is unusual (at least from the clinician's perspective) is necessarily a delusion.

It goes on to state:

Such misattributions can be avoided through a careful application of the DSM-IV-TR glossary definition of delusion: A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary.

Now, there is no proper diagnosis of a delusional disorder that stands alone (unless it presents due to some organicity, not otherwise specified). Delusional disorders present with accompanying mental health problems such as depression, bipolar/schizo-affective disorders, and secondary to oranic disorders.

I do not believe this is a "serious" conversation, as it is obviously lacking in any clinical oversight. If it were a "serious" conversation there would be some level of clinical oversight provided by either the OP or one of the individuals who have chimed in favoring the explanation of some imagined "delusional disorder".

This conversation is meant as a means to belittle the individual and smear the character of John Lear.

"I'm just saying..."

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
I will defend my assertion that having radio waves exit our solar system being presumptive, i think, until we actually are able to monitor the radio waves that exit the solar system from a location outside our solar system.

Suit yourself but your time is running out, Voyager 1 will be out of our solar system by ~2015 and will continue to transmit AND receive radio waves from Earth (and other sources like our Sun’s solar bursts) until ~2020...



Voyager Enters Solar System's Final Frontier
www.nasa.gov...

I hope for our sake though this doesn't attract any undue hostile attention from our neighbors.

i would be interested to see the results. it would help me eliminate a few possibilities.

but i don't want to see any more scrub reports, i want to see the raw data and independant anlysis.

Figures don't lie, but liars can figure...and i have an eerie suspicion that we are lied to on fundamental levels.

Please read this it is important

I just want to had a simple point.
" just because a person has proof that they are credible does not mean they are"
All humans have inherent weakness that i describe in my own terms as sway, which means we are can always be mislead one way or the other.

There is a lot of gullible people on ats, who are covinced they are not.
This in it self is a weakness. There is a lot of people who talk about credibilty and ones a person appears to have credibilty ats is willing to accept them. This is a weakness as every thing that makes a person credible to us is still subject to control by people who have the power.
Ask youreslf who has the power to determine an individuals credibilty and you will find that it is goverment, who is trying to control and monitor information.

(LOGIC)

if you were the goverment and you wanted to disinform and mislead people. Logically you have to use a person who appears "credible" to your chosen audience. If your audience is the ufo community and conspiracy theorist. you have to use someone who has history and background in goverment or goverment agencies. someone whos family has history in goverment.

(STORY)

You now create a story, this story gives the audience the "reason".
In the mind of your audience there is burning desire to know why are helping the audience or revealing things they shouldn't.
The two strongest points are PATRIOTSM and MORALITY.
The love for thier country always appeals to us, The goverment breaking the constitution and betray us also helps to legitimise the change of heart.

(PERCENTAGE)

The old saying "all truth is said in gesture" well not quite try a small percetage. There is no real secrets in goverment because something can not really be a secret when more than one person knows about it.
There is a lot of data but not much information unless a person needs to know. Data is hard to control because of the very nature of gathering it, it involves more people and different people within the angencies will be priviledged to some data. Even people in the "field" and on the "ground" get wiff or droplets of data but never information. only their superior and talking of the people at the high end of the military and their agencies know the real information because they process the info.
The info is kept and updated. the situation is monitored
When data gets leaked delibrately or undelibrately. A leak is when may be there is a report or someone happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, or when things have not gone according to plan.
Someone in the "field" or on the "ground" goes awol and decides to release data. This leaks have to be countered or controlled by disinformation if the audience "PEOPLE" start processing bits of data to get information, the closer we are or are likely to get due to the data, the more aggressive they will become and often they will result to using a disinformant or a group of disinformants to it harder decifer the real info.

ASK YOURSELF WHY ARE THERE SO MANY VERSIONS OF THE SO CALLED
TRUTH

ASK YOURSELF WHY IS DISCLOSURE SO INCOHERENT

The answer is the disinformants are armed with a bit of info which contains 5% - 10% of the truth. An accepted level of real information often what is considered safe, things the audience can accept, process and even conceptualise. This is used to re-enforce the disinformation, it is often the same or better than leaked data, so it confirms what the audience "people" suspects or have knowledge of, it is also used slightly to prepare or condition the audience for a necessary or emergency disclosure.

(DISINFORMANTS)

TYPE 1 : VOLUNTARY

TYPE 2 : APPOINTED

Type 1 is mostly someone with history and connection with goverment, most likely ground level security pass. Previledged to some data or witnessed a leak, often with no real scientific knowledge, has a need for attention or financial gain. Has no real info, no proof, no evidence or

TYPE 2 DISINFORMANT

Someone appointed by a goverment agency to mislead the audience,
A person with history and direct tracable connection with a goverment agency. Previledged to some data or leaks. The person is given a story as to why are to be seen betraying the goverment. They are given inaccurate
information purposely to mislead the audience. They pocess scientific knowledge, they are given tangible information 5% - 10% of which is true or can be confirmed. They have names of people within goverment.
They often claim to be patriots of the country, so to appeal to a broader audience and thier lives are often at risk but yet they manage to survive against all odds. Appear to be quiet and sincere with good scinetific case to support thier disinformation. Claim to have been threatened and attacked in order to appeal to the audience mistrust of the goverment and abuse of power. Their house as been broken into and they have been buggled by the goverment on recovery mission. All evidence has been taken from them by the goverment.15 - 25 year history within the goverment.
Elderly figure try to inform the new generation before dieing.
Doing for the good people of earth.

SOME POINTS TO THINK ABOUT OR ASK A DISINFORMANT

ASK YOUR WHY DID THEY JUST DEVELOPE A CONSENCE?

EXPECTED REPLY : i didn't mind some of the things the goverment were but now they have gone too far, they are breaking the constitution and betraying the people

WHY DID IT TAKE 15 TO 20 YEARS BEFORE COMING FORWARD?

EXPECTED REPLY : If had spoken earlier, i would have been killed.
i had to wait for immunity. I was afraid for the sake of my family.

LETS BE HONEST IF THE GOVERMENT WANTS ANYONE DEAD, THEN THE PERSON IS DEAD, IF THEY CAN KILL THE PRESIDENT, HOW HARD WILL IT BE TO KILL ANY ONE.

HOW DID YOU SURVIVE AN ATTACK FROM THE GOVERMENT, EXACTLY YOU DONT LOOK LIKE YOU CAN SURVIVE A FIGHT.

WHY WOULD THE GOVERMENT KILL A PERSON AND THEN MAKE IT LOOK LIKE SUCIDE, ITS NOT YOU CAN PROOVE IT WAS THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Can you source that, by any chance?

I don't mean any disrespect, and it may be a language barrier or something. But that seemed like quite a bit of circular logic.

"It must be guilty because it is guilty." Maybe I am not sure i am following?

Would Lear's Soul-Catcher moon tower be more or less creditable than the Holy Cross?

Hmm, like always JL seems to avoid discussions like this.
I take that as proof enough (like I already did a long time ago) that there sure is something fishy going about with this caracter and his claims.

Way to go John.

Originally posted by Raud
Hmm, like always JL seems to avoid discussions like this.
I take that as proof enough (like I already did a long time ago) that there sure is something fishy going about with this caracter and his claims.

Way to go John.

I think you are employing a "Straw Man" argument.

Because he will not answer, you assume (presume) guilt?

Your standards of "proof" are not likely applied evenly across all people. If they were, one might wonder if you practice some level of snobbery?

I prefer calling it "aristocracy" since I am an aristocrat, not a "snob".

I might come forth as a bit of a "complaining bastard" and in some ways it might even be true. But still, the fact remains; thread after thread are without response, specifically no answers to questions l like the one the OP made (far from the fist thread on the subject).

The whole thing that bothers me, that I cannot let go of (I have a high blood preassure to maintain you know) is that his claims are backed up with "it's true because I say so" (actual quote of JL) and all attempts from various members to confront and confirm these "facts" has been treated with silence (ignorance if you will).

I find it disturbing, yet somewhat amusing. I just want a decent, sane and plausible explanation for his major theories. As long as there is not even a hint of reality present I will contiue my quest and act as a critic, something that might bother some posters, I understand that but it's just the way the cookie crumbles, one might say. If this is such a heart- and headache for you, you are free to push the "ignore" or "foe" button. Please do.

To me, it's not about believeing, it's about knowing.

Thank you for your time.

I'm perfectly happy to state my position that I assign absolutely no credibility to John Lear's tales whatsoever and I have no idea what either causes him to believe them or to post them for others to read and comment on them.

However, am I the only person here who is very uncomfortable about a thread on this public forum which is attempting to perform an amateur diagnosis of his mental state and labelling him as being in some way mentally ill?

Most unseemly I would have thought.

Originally posted by Raud
Hmm, like always JL seems to avoid discussions like this.
I take that as proof enough (like I already did a long time ago) that there sure is something fishy going about with this caracter and his claims.

Way to go John.

I'm sorry but a thread devoted to John's mental condition (in his own forum) is ridiculous. How can you possibly expect him to contribute to this?

Basically the OP has decided that anybody who has a theory of their own has a delusional disorder. Great.

Yeah, you might have a point there. It is not my real intention to attack his mental status (whichever that might be, it's not really interresting anyhow). As far as I am concerned we all suffer from some sort of "illness". Nevertheless, I feel compelled to take part in any such discussion when it comes to dig out the roots of JLs "factless" statements.

I too think that targeting personal (possible) disadvanteges is a bit below my standards. Maybe I should start reading the OPs more accuratly from start. Hehe. Way to go Raud.

Sorry for that JL, but please, tell me how you for the first time got information on those "soul towers" and how/when you confirmed this occurrance as 100% valid and TRUE.

If you look at google video with John by project Camelot, he tells you exactly what the situation is and where he's coming from.

Originally posted by Raud
Yeah, you might have a point there. It is not my real intention to attack his mental status (whichever that might be, it's not really interresting anyhow). As far as I am concerned we all suffer from some sort of "illness". Nevertheless, I feel compelled to take part in any such discussion when it comes to dig out the roots of JLs "factless" statements.

I too think that targeting personal (possible) disadvanteges is a bit below my standards. Maybe I should start reading the OPs more accuratly from start. Hehe. Way to go Raud.

Sorry for that JL, but please, tell me how you for the first time got information on those "soul towers" and how/when you confirmed this occurrance as 100% valid and TRUE.

Regarding your previous post (previous to the one quoted above):

I hope i did not offend. That was not my intention. If i mispoke, i apologize.

Regardless, the post was pretty amusing, and if you were being sarcastic in any way, i appreciate its humor.

Regarding the above, I can agree with most of it. There is nothing wrong with attacking the arguement, the debate subject. But there is no need to let that morph into criticism of the individual. That deserves a star, at the least.