A Delusional Disorder (valid discussion)

I have listened very closely to people like John Lear talk on youtube, while he, like Steven Greer and David Icke are extremely interesting in telling these compelling stories that are backed up by nothing, and it is great to just wonder about such incredible theories, it is still easy to be sceptical.

I am intrigued to learn just WHY Mr Lear does not fly anymore since his retirement. Could it possible be "stress related"? I intuitively suspect so.

Without intending to offend Mr Lear, I do not want to be taken along for a ride so I am innocently exploring the possibility that his stories are symptons of a slight mental health issue. So I did a google search and came up with info on "Delusional Disorder". Mr Lear does not come across as a straight-out liar, which is why we are so fascinated by everything he tells us, and I believe HE believes everything he says.

A Delusional disorder generally first affects people in middle or late adult life. Delusions tend to be nonbizarre and involve situations that could conceivably occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, infected, loved at a distance, or deceived by a spouse or lover.

In the grandiose subtype, the person is convinced that he has some great talent or has made some important discovery.

They have an inflated sense of self-worth. Their delusions center on their own importance, such as believing that they have done or created something of extreme value or have a "special mission."

I think we all have a little delusional disorder in us! John Lear has his beliefs, and doesn't let anyone make up his mind for him. Quite frankly, many of his claims can not be disproven or proven. The man has his own views and sticks by them. If you can disprove some of his claims with evidence lets hear some.

Just because someone thinks way outside the box is no reason to think they are delusional IMO.

copied and pasted from another forum:

John Lear was totally creditable to begin with.
He was a test pilot, worked in the American Air force and held 17 flight records.
His interest in UFO's started in the early 80's when he asked one of his trusted Military Friends of 20 years.
"What's all this crap about Roswell and green men?"
His friend replied "It's true..oh and they're not green but grey"
This shocked, amazed him and blew apart his former preconceptions.
His friend only told him because he thought he'd remain quiet but he had different ideas.He thought the People of America needed to know about this; so started to use his vast military contacts to find out the full extent of the cover up.
He acheived his Goal and uncovered the 'horrible truth' (his words).
I believe this is when he became 'dangerous' to the powers that be. He was protected by his military friends for a long time but I believe he naively underestimated how far these people would go to keep the information suppressed.
He disappears from the Ufo Scene in the early 90's only to now return with mumbo jumbo crap. Going on about 'soul catchers' on the moon, gravity phones etc etc It's all crap.
It's designed to discredit him.
Did 'they' get to him. I think so. Shame. I believe, They did the same to Ronald Reagan.
So much more effective than an assassination don't you think.

Personaly, I belive his 'storys' as you call them are exactly as grandiose as they should be if this whole 'story' is true.

Think about it for a good long time. Ponder it, sleep on it. Then come back.

I belive that lots of open minded people think that that UFO's are real. So start there.

~If there is UFO's/ET's, you can assume they are in contact with the 'Elites'. Who else is doing the coverups?
~If they are in contact with our Elites, we can assume that we are not being told the truth. What is there to hide?
~If we are not being told the truth, then how deep does the 'story' go?

Thats where Iam at. HOW DEEP DOES THE STORY GO.

I have came these conclusions:

*UFO/ET's are visiting the planet with technology beyond what the public knows is possible. There is too many credible pilot sitings and recordings IMO to deny this any longer.
*Beliving that UFO's are real. I have to belive that since our leaders are not coming out about it, that we are being supressed at the very least. Being told that they are not there, at the very least.

This is where all these 'storys' come into play for me.

See, if those two things that I concluded are true, after pondering it, I belive that there is a GIGANTIC consiracy here. This would HAVE TO incudes our world leaders of all different sectors. The Elites would have to be in contact with the ET/UFOs, I think that the cover-ups over the years have helped to prove this. The Space programs around the world would have to connected at the top, and I belive that Johns 'storys' support this. I also belive that the secrect society conspiracys where the world leaders are connected that way, the new word order talk, helps to support this all encompassing conspiracy that literally is woven into everything we belive to be true.

I could go on, like to bring up what John brings to the table about the Moon. If all of this is true. Then surely its not a new happening. I would assume that if we are under the grips of ET's this has been happening our whole existance, which brings the ancient structures on the moon into question.... Not to mention Mars, Venus, Phobo's or others anomolys in space.

Then there is people like Bob Lazzar who, while to me is a little 'strange', has interesting storys about place where know are there on earth, yet have no idea what is inside. Area 51, ect, ect.

All the military people coming out with their different storys or Technology, bodys, videos, pictures, talk, ect, ect, ect.

No sir, I can no longer belive there UFO's & NWO type conspiracy are all different. Im to the point of seeing them all in connection with eachother, and when you do this I belive it will help others to see that the 'storys' John speaks of are not to strange.... or impossible IMO.

Originally posted by JbT
Personaly, I belive his 'storys' as you call them are exactly as grandiose as they should be if this whole 'story' is true.

Think about it for a good long time. Ponder it, sleep on it. Then come back.
...
...

This is a good read and basically my thought process as well on the subject. Anyone who comes in, reads a few of John's posts blatantly disregards John Lear's stories as hoax/disinfo/crackpot/etc should read this.

Going back to the poster's original topic though. Yes, anyone can be delusional, I think everyone is to an extent at one time or another in their life. Part of John's credibility though is his background, son of Bill Lear, former career pilot. Also the fact that his story has never changed gives him more validity. One question I would ask for you is, let's say everything Lear has stated is information is true for one moment. Who would you need to hear it from in order to believe it? The news? The president?

[edit on 4-6-2007 by Jack_Deth]

[ double post ]

[edit on 4-6-2007 by Jack_Deth]

Originally posted by Jack_Deth
Also the fact that his story has never changed gives him more validity.

Actually, his opinions have changed, at least somewhat. And I think that is evidence he's open to assimilating new information as it's presented. I think it also points to a conclusion that he's not "delusional". Anyone delusional will not easily assimilate new information and modify their view.

The thing is, we all have a tendency to peg someone who doesn't believe what we do as "delusional". Or we think they have a "blind spot".

I can be interested in anyone's educated opinion, as long as I'm convinced they believe what they're stating and aren't just pulling my chain for grins.

Originally posted by SwingingMonkey
A Delusional Disorder (valid discussion)

A while back ATS announced that we had a psychologist on board - as part of the staff I think. I know we have a few folks here with psychology degrees, but ATS introduced someone especially for this type of discussion.

At least, that's what I seem to remember. It was a few months back. Perhaps even a year ago??

I don't remember the fella's name, but perhaps someone in MOD land could contact him to get on this thread and discuss delusional disorders.

SwingingMonkey,

I think you're making a valid point here, one that we should all take into consideration. But we also need to take care of going too far and too often in that direction when we're faced with the extraordinary.

One can, in all goodheartedness and sincerity, fall back on the old "I believe that you believe it" mindset. It's a nice way to remain polite while simultaneously rejecting new and out-of-the-box thinking. Ultimately, you can reduce any credible proponent of an extraordinary theory to being delusional.

(And that's why they can't be "caught" in a lie, because, technically, they're not lying -- i.e., not purposefully hoaxing us. They're not bad, they're just crazy.)

The old saying goes, "keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out." Which is important to remember, but the operative part of that statement is still to keep an open mind. Keep your BS meter turned up high, but not to 100%, otherwise no new information will get through.

Baack

I notice Lear's Wikipedia entry got deleted this week because there is no independent verification of even the basic facts about John Lear.

Has anyone ever verified Lear's non-conspiracy claims? i.e. is he even who he says he is? Certainly Wikipedia doesn't seem to think so.

The problem is that there are so many many 'sheep' who will believe anything because they want to believe in something.

Just take one look at the outrageously impossible stuff spouted by the UK chap Barry King on Youtube. No evidence, no corroboration, no proof. Just the whitterings of his mind, yet people still insist on believing it.

Its the same with religion isnt it?, Some peole just need to believe in someone else.

Humanity is strange.

Originally posted by SwingingMonkey
I have listened very closely to people like John Lear talk on youtube, while he, like Steven Greer and David Icke are extremely interesting in telling these compelling stories that are backed up by nothing, and it is great to just wonder about such incredible theories, it is still easy to be sceptical.

I am intrigued to learn just WHY Mr Lear does not fly anymore since his retirement. Could it possible be "stress related"? I intuitively suspect so.

Without intending to offend Mr Lear, I do not want to be taken along for a ride so I am innocently exploring the possibility that his stories are symptons of a slight mental health issue. So I did a google search and came up with info on "Delusional Disorder". Mr Lear does not come across as a straight-out liar, which is why we are so fascinated by everything he tells us, and I believe HE believes everything he says.

A Delusional disorder generally first affects people in middle or late adult life. Delusions tend to be nonbizarre and involve situations that could conceivably occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, infected, loved at a distance, or deceived by a spouse or lover.

In the grandiose subtype, the person is convinced that he has some great talent or has made some important discovery.

They have an inflated sense of self-worth. Their delusions center on their own importance, such as believing that they have done or created something of extreme value or have a "special mission."

This would be a valid discussion if one of the following two caveats were met:

1. This were a psychology based forum on a closed, institutional/peer related system (so as to not violate any HIPPA laws by disclosing confidential information)

2. You were not discussing any individual in this forum

What you have done here is provide psychological supposition and levelled it in an ad hominem manner to discredit John's (as well as others) credibility relative to the matters being discussed.

Not very valid at all, actually.

You are at it again Realyweely.

Just posting negative comments time and time again.

Here is a positive suggestion: Read the book Blue Blood, True Blood by Stewart A Swerdlow. (His great uncle was Yakov Sverdlov, the first president of the Soviet Union )

That is if you want to know more about the reptillian agenda and NWO.

He was on Coast To Coast AM a few nights ago.

Originally posted by pippadee
You are at it again Realyweely.
Just posting negative comments time and time again.
Here is a positive suggestion: Read the book Blue Blood, True Blood by Stewart A Swerdlow. (His great uncle was Yakov Sverdlov, the first president of the Soviet Union )
That is if you want to know more about the reptillian agenda and NWO.
He was on Coast To Coast AM a few nights ago.

Sorry but it would seem you paid to much attention to the series 'V' and actually believed it.
You should have paid a bit more attention to South Park.

People believe what they want to believe, their lives are so lacking in anything they have to latch on to wild ideas. Thats fine but when they become paranoid in their belief of these things, that becomes dangerous.

Someone once said "Dont believe the hype". Take note of that.
John Lear has his own agenda.

WRONG AGAIN realyweely!!

I have NEVER watched V (whatever that is ). In fact I do not watch much TV because I HAVE A LIFE unlike some.

I will tell you what I believe in. Jesus of Nazereth lived and died. He was very special. Perhaps He was from another world. I dont know. I believe the multiverse is TEEMING with life and we are a miniscule spec within it.

Now DO SOME RESEARCH instead of watching South Park ( which I am told is a very funny cartoon ). Otherwise don the tall pointy hat - you know the one with the CAPITAL D on it and go stand in the corner until I tell you to come out.

PS Do you have any beliefs? Somehow I dont think so. I bet you dont even believe in Atheism!!



[edit on 18-6-2007 by pippadee]

Well here's an interesting post!

I've read a lot of conflicting stuff here and have an interesting query I would like more light shed on.....

After listening to a radio interview on "coast to coast" just now, (thanx to "dudeinerock" at youtube), I am confused as to how you actually arrive at your conclusions that support your beliefs Mr Lear?

You see, if I was interested in exposing the "truth" about such things as bases on the moon and "soul" harvesting etc, it would be a process involving many stages to arrive at the conclusions that you have. E.g: information, questions, explanations, research and most importantly.......consideration of all possibilities!

Herein lies my query: why, when asked a simple question, like "if there are bases on the moon and all planets in our solar systel are inhabited, why has SETI not picked up a SINGLE transmission", your only answer is "I don't know", or "I have no idea", and that's all you can say!



How can you seriously expect anyone to take what you say as anywhere near a truth worthy of "disclosure"? Why do you have no explanations other than those that support your beliefs? The chance of other possibilities.

Seems to me you're happy talking about all your extensively researched "theories", but when confronted with a different opinion you offer no discussion. Even a humourous comment would be more normal under the circumstances.

I want to take you seriously. I am genuinely interested in some of your ideas, but please, if you're going to tell the world about such amazing theories you could at least look at the bigger picture to see what's outside the box rather than ONLY seeing what supports your beliefs.

Interesting that you haven't posted on this topic to give your opinion to the OPs comments.

Show us what you're really made of John.........why hasn't SETI ever picked up transmissions from the solar systems other inhabitants?

I'm trying, honestly, I want to believe you. Thankyou.

Show us what you're really made of John.........why hasn't SETI ever picked up transmissions from the solar systems other inhabitants?

Can i offer a few possibilities?

If you consider that the much discussed and often refuted superliminal G waves exist, you could then consider that encoding communications on such gravity waves would allow simultaneous transmission of data anywhere in the universe, correct? The basic premise here is that the gravity waves exist simultaneously throughout all reality, so once you "upload" data onto this grid you have instantaneous transmission and availability. The universal internet, so to speak.

I am bound to have one or two individuals come in here to call me a fool, or some other ad hominem. Before you do, please think openly (meaning consider the possibility of things that we are not yet aware of, at least not fully) and discuss this as a possibility, not a probability.

If you don't like superluminal gravity, then consider tachyons. i mean, honestly, there are countless theories created by people chasing the shadows in the dark room that is our understanding of physics. pick one.

if you think that ET would use radio to transmit their communications, i do not know what to say. These beings can travel at the speed of light, and can flash in and out of reality (based on what we have seen and had reported, even in ancient times). Why be so presumptive.

Don't believe John Lear. I don't. I say this because it is unhealthy to believe anything that you cannot provide solid evidence either for or against. this is faith, and therefore a religion. John Lear is not a religion.

But, you should give his concepts some thought. Consider "what if". Consider the parallels in other stories. Consider the logic he is providing. Just give his stories some good thought. When people refute him, consider their story. Is it really simple: are they attacking him or his theory? If it is his theory, are they providing presumptive positions, or are they considering all possibilities as well?

You say this quite a bit. "Consider all possibilities". If you had done that, the concept of using radio transmissions as a communication tool for ET's would be almost silly, and the question would not have even been posed. What the scientist you were referring to was doing is presenting a red herring arguement, then attempting to employe argumentum ad populum. you have to watch for these tactics to decide who really has a story that is worthy of consideration.

you had the jedi mind trick played on you. that is why John did not answer, i would say...you cannot argue against someone who is successfully using the jedi mind trick. "These are not the droids you are looking for"

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
if you think that ET would use radio to transmit their communications, i do not know what to say. These beings can travel at the speed of light, and can flash in and out of reality (based on what we have seen and had reported, even in ancient times). Why be so presumptive.

Actually it sounds like maybe you're the one being presumptive. We use radio and the whole point of SETI is another civilization equal to us likely would too. Since we’ve been using radio for 100 years or so, any civilization within 100 light years of us could have detected us by now and visa versa. Why haven’t we detected anything when we’re receiving light (and therefore radio too) from all around us covering millions of years of history?

Also, please provide some evidence to support your claim that “these beings can travel at the speed of light”. Why would they even need to?

Nice comments "bigfft"...you see, there are explanations other than "don't know"!

I was annoyed with Mr Lear and his narrow mind. That is why I said "consideration of all possibilities". This comment was aimed directly at him.

I just wanted him to say something,.....anything as a reason for SETIs failure so far to hear from "ET".

Thanks, and by the way, I don't think you're a fool.

Also, from what you're saying, SETI is a bit of a waste of time, money and computer resourses. Glad I don't run it on my "pooter" then.

p.s. if he tried the 'jedi mind trick" personally on me, I'd do more than just accept a "don't know" for an answer. I'd question his response like I did in my earlier post.

By the way, and I know this may seem a little late to ask, but is Mr Lear still posting here or has he finally been abducted?

I am going to try to add a respectful insight to this issue. Even though John and I have had problems, I'm not here to put him down.

Folks, remember, John Lear is a veteran of the Viet Nam war. Viet Nam was a horrible war that caused many of it's veterans to have lasting problems. Did anyone ever thing that John Lear's actions may be a product of whatever happened to him in Nam?

Tim