Marine veteran faces hearing on discharge status for wearing uniform at protest rally

St Udio,

Do you have a reference for all that information?

Originally posted by zeeon
*** Unless I don't have all the correct / acurate information pertaining to Kokesh's actual status (I've been going off of media reports for information pertaining to Kokesh ) then I don't see how they can do anything but alter his discharge. ***

Have you ever bothered to read and understand the military enlistment/re-enlistment contract that is used by all services?

Source

Read paragraph 9a (2) and (3)



[edit on 6/2/2007 by shots]

Originally posted by zeeon
St Udio,

Do you have a reference for all that information?

the fact that a 'ReEnlistment Code' exists, it's on everyones' DD-214.

as far as references or citing publications that gives that laymans
explaination,,,,,,,,,i don't have any.

i learned of this obscure factoid during my 3 year active duty and
being fortunate enough to have friends in "Personnel" and the 'Intelligence' sections of Division Headquarters,
also friends in the 'CID' of the Army



i might be a little fanciful in characterizing Mr. Kokeshs' motivation...
but his action with the uniform-violation might just result in his
never being activated or called-up for another 'Surge' in Iraq.
I wonder ....??? is/does former Cpl. Kokesh have a plan he's working ???

zeeon

You are right my husband a retired marine said that this whole issue will be dismised and it will be the end of the debate between the former Marine and the military, this can escalate in an anti war movement and that is something that the military can not handle right now.

To tell you truth I think that this, is exactly what the former Marine wants to bring the media into his own anti war agenda so he can get lots of publicity.

i really don't think its about obligation, its about whats right and whats wrong.

Originally posted by DollyDagger
i really don't think its about obligation, its about whats right and whats wrong.

Err...yes it is... When you join the military you sign a contract and you are bound by rules which no regular civilian is bound to...

Whether you or any other person thinks these rules and regulations are "wrong" doesn't matter, there are regulations that all enlisted personnel and officers must abide to.

Again, this Marine could have very well gone to the protest in civilian clothes.... It is not that he was protesting, but rather that he was protesting in a military issued uniform, while still serving his military obligation. That's against regulations.

[edit on 3-6-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Err...yes it is... When you join the military you sign a contract and you are bound by rules which no regular civilian is bound to...

Well said and I think that is the point most are missing here the contract actually no different then an employement agreement either you follow the rules are you suffer the consequences. It is very clear on the enlistmewnt form.

RRConservative had this thread covered. He explained the rules, so I'll explain the meaning behind them, since apparently that's not enough for this guy.

As a member of the United States Military, you, in the flesh, represent not only your military branch, but your country as a whole. Whenever you are wearing your uniform, you are a walking representative of the United States, no matter what your status is (active, reserve, retired, etc). Now the United States is amazing in the sense that it is quite free, and allows this freedom to extend to members of its military, even though it is not required. When out of uniform and off duty (and off base, obviously), you can protest WHATEVER YOU WANT, including your government or military - even though you signed up to represent it! However you CANNOT do so as a representative of your nation, as this would mean that not only you are taking a political stance, but that the nation itself is taking one, too. Therefore, you must do so out of uniform, protesting as a citizen, not as a member of the United States Armed Forces. It doesn't matter what he did to the uniform before he put it on, because he was still wearing it. It was a bad decision on his part.

And this is for zeeon's "he wasn't active duty!" argument.

I'm no Marine, so if anyone here feels the need to correct me, do so. Formatting is all mine.



MARINE CORPS ORDER P1020.34F
MARINE CORPS UNIFORM REGULATIONS

CHAPTER 1
GENERAL
Paragraph 1003

1003. RESTRICTIONS ON WEARING UNIFORMS
1. Members of the Marine Corps and Marine Corps Reserve, including
retired Marines, are prohibited from wearing the Marine Corps uniform
while engaged in any of the following activities, functions or
circumstances unless specifically authorized by the CMC (PA):
a. Soliciting funds for any purpose from the public outside of a
military base or establishment.
b. Participating in any type of show or event which is commercially
sponsored for advertising purposes, where it could be implied or construed
that the Marine Corps "endorses" the product advertised.
c. "Endorsing" commercial products in such ways as to involve the
uniform, title, grade or rate, or in any establish or imply their military
affiliation with such products.
d. Appearing or participating in any event in public that would
compromise the dignity of the uniform.
2. Whenever any doubt exists as to the propriety of wearing the Marine
Corps uniform under circumstances similar to those enumerated above,
specific requests should be directed to the CMC (MCUB/PA).
3. For further information on those laws and directives which govern the
authority to wear the uniform, refer to Chapter 11.

Chapter 8
UNIFORMS FOR NAVY PERSONNEL, RESERVE/ RETIRED MARINES, MCJROTC, AND CIVILIANS
Paragraph 8002

8002. RESERVE PERSONNEL
1. Members of the Marine Corps Reserve not on active duty will wear the
uniform of their grade when attending drills, and when performing
authorized active or training duty, with or without pay, except when
civilian clothing is authorized.
2. Reservists not on active duty may wear the uniform of their grade when
engaged in military instruction or in attendance as a student under
official orders at any school or course of instruction under the auspices
of the Armed Forces or Reserve components.
3. Reservists not on active duty may wear the uniform at social or
informal gatherings of a military character.
4. Reservists not on active duty, residing or visiting in a foreign
country, will not wear the uniform except when attending, by formal
invitation, ceremonies or social functions at which wear of the uniform is
required by the invitation or by the country’s regulations or customs.
5. Marine Corps Reserve officers employed in any capacity by a military school will not wear the uniform unless
specifically authorized by the CMC. Requests for such authority should be
addressed to the CMC (MCUB) and will contain a written statement from
school officials indicating that the individual is or will be employed
there, to include job title. When such authority is granted, personnel
will wear the insignia of their grade in the Marine Corps Reserve. No
school or other unauthorized insignia will be worn on the Marine Corps
uniform.

[edit on 3-6-2007 by Johnmike]

(cont.)

CHAPTER 11
LAWS AND DIRECTIVES
Paragraph 11002

11002. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE DIRECTIVES PERTAINING TO UNIFORMS
1. Implementing 10 U.S.C. 772, the President, by Executive Order 10554 of
18 August 1954, delegated to the Secretary of Defense the authority to
prescribe regulations under which persons may wear the uniform. The
following excerpts from DoD Directive 1334.1 of 11 August 1969 outline
these regulations:
"a. Members of the Armed Forces (including retired members and members
of reserve components). The wearing of the uniform is prohibited under
any of the following circumstances:
"(1) At any meeting or demonstration which is a function of, or
sponsored by an organization, association, movement, group, or combination
of persons which the Attorney General of the United States has designated,
pursuant to E.O. 10450, as amended as totalitarian, fascist, communist, or
subversive, or as having adopted a policy of advocating or approving the
commission of acts of force or violence to deny others their right under
The Constitution of the United States, or as seeking to alter the form of
Government of the United States by unconstitutional means.
"(2) During or in connection with the furtherance of political
activities, private employment or commercial interests, when an inference
of official sponsorship for the activity or interest could be drawn.
"(3) Except when authorized by competent Service authority, when
participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews, picket
lines, marches, rallies or any public demonstration (including those
pertaining to civil rights), which may imply Service sanction
of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.
"(4) When wearing of the uniform would tend to bring discredit
upon the Armed Forces.
"(5) When specifically prohibited by regulations of the department
concerned.
"b. Former Members of the Armed Forces. Unless qualified under
another provision of this Order or under the provisions of 10 U.S.C. 772,
former members who served honorably during a declared or undeclared war
and whose most recent service was terminated under honorable conditions
may wear the uniform in the highest grade held during such war service
only upon the following occasions and in the course of travel incident
thereto:
"(1) Military funerals, memorial services, weddings, and
inaugurals.
"(2) Parades on national or state holidays; or other parades or
ceremonies or a patriotic character in which any active or reserve United
States military unit is taking part.
"Wearing of the uniform or any part thereof at any other time or for
any purpose is prohibited."
"c. Medal of Honor Holders. Persons who have been awarded the Medal of
Honor may wear the uniform at their pleasure except under the
circumstances set forth in Subsection a., above."
2. Pursuant to DoD Instruction 5410.20, unauthorized use of approved
Marine Corps uniform emblems or insignia on civilian attire, or other nonuniform
attire, is prohibited.
3. The President, by Executive Order 10113 of 24 February 1950, delegated
to the Secretary of Defense the authority to prescribe the quantity and
kind of clothing which shall be furnished to enlisted Marines, or the cash
allowance to be provided in lieu thereof. Department of Defense Directive
1338.18 of 29 Jul 85 outlines the policies and regulations pertaining
thereto.

CHAPTER 11
LAWS AND DIRECTIVES
Paragraph 11003

11003. SECRETARY OF THE NAVY POLICY PERTAINING TO UNIFORMS
1. Pursuant to subparagraph 11002.1a(5), the Secretary of the Navy has
prescribed that:
a. The exercise of the rights of freedom of speech and assembly does
not include the right to borrow the inherent dignity prestige, and
traditions represented by uniforms of the naval service to lend weight and
significance to privately held convictions on public issues.
b. Members of the Navy and Marine Corps (including retired members and
members of Reserve components) are prohibited from wearing uniforms of the naval service while attending or participating in, or continuing to attend
or participate in, a demonstration, assembly, or activity with knowledge
that a purpose of such demonstration, assembly, or activity is the
furtherance of personal or partisan views on political, social, economic,
or religious issues except:
(1) In connection with official duties or as otherwise authorized in
advance by competent authority; or
(2) Incident to attendance at or participation in a bona fide
religious service or observance.
c. Authorization to wear the uniform should be granted by a commanding
officer when reasonably assured that the service member’s appearance in
uniform at the particular event, viewed objectively, is not for the
purpose of lending substantial weight or significance to privately held
convictions or interests; would not be so construed by an observer; and
that the demonstration, assembly or activity does not relate to matters in
public controversy.
2. To implement 10 U.S.C 773, the Secretary of the Navy has prescribed the
following distinctive mark for wear by members of military societies which
are composed entirely of honorably discharged officers and enlisted
personnel, or by the instructors and members of duly organized cadet
corps.
a. The distinctive mark will be a diamond, 3-1/2 inches long by two
inches wide, of any cloth material. A white distinctive mark will be worn
on blue, green, or khaki clothing; and a blue distinctive mark will be
worn on white clothing.
b. The distinctive mark will be worn on all outer clothing on the right sleeve, at the point of the shoulder, the upper tip of the diamond to be 1/4 inch below the shoulder seam.

I'm sorry to quote so much, but it's important to do so. Quoting excerpts could mean leaving out important exceptions to these regulations... It's bad enough quoting a paragraph on it's own, but I don't see how it's misleading in this case, as I see nothing that significantly modifies anything stated here.

[edit on 3-6-2007 by Johnmike]

I don't know how many times I can say this before you people "understand it" -

You keep quoting Marine Corp Reserves -
Yes he was in the IRR - do you guys not understand there are more then one type of reserve component? Do you not understand that not all the same rules apply for each reserve component?

Mark my words, it will come out soon that he wasn't under UCMJ juridisction, and everything will be dropped.

Then you all can admit you were wrong and we can move on.

If it turns out I'm wrong and he goes to NJP / Courts Martial, I will admit defeat.

Originally posted by zeeon
I don't know how many times I can say this before you people "understand it" -

You keep quoting Marine Corp Reserves -
Yes he was in the IRR - do you guys not understand there are more then one type of reserve component? Do you not understand that not all the same rules apply for each reserve component?

The IRR is considered part of the Reserves. The Marine Forces Reserve (United States Marine Corp Reserve) is made up of the Selected Marine Corps Reserve, which is the "one weekend a month, two weeks a year" component, and the Individual Ready Reserve. There's no reason that someone in the IRR would be exempt from any regulations that apply to the Reserves as a whole.

[edit on 3-6-2007 by Johnmike]

Originally posted by zeeon
Do you not understand that not all the same rules apply for each reserve component?

See now that is where you are wrong there is only one set of regulations for each service and those regulations apply to each component of that branch of service. There is also one exception and is the standard enlistment form for all Services and it states the very same for Marine, AF, Navy etc and applies to enlistments and re-enlistments.

Source



Again I ask you to read Paragraph 9 (all of it) You will find you are dead wrong.

-----

Johnmike Thanks for the home work that seems to be somewhat more inclusive then those Grady posted, however why some individuals cannot understand there is only one set of rules for active and reserves just amazes me..

[edit on 6/3/2007 by shots]

Yeah, I don't get it. These are rules that apply to EVERYONE under the Department of the Navy (including the United States Navy and the United States Marine Corp, which therefore includes their respective reserve components).

Ok lets try this again for some reason the link to the PDF file will not work
But I see this one does perhaps this will make it much clearer for the naysayers.

9. FOR ALL ENLISTEES OR REENLISTEES: Many laws,
regulations, and military customs will govern my conduct
and require me to do things a civilian does not have to
do. The following statements are not promises or
guarantees of any kind. They explain some of the
present laws affecting the Armed Forces which I cannot
change but which Congress can change at any time.

a. My enlistment is more than an employment
agreement. As a member of the Armed Forces of the
United States, I will be:

(1) Required to obey all lawful orders and perform all
assigned duties.

(2) Subject to separation during or at the end of my
enlistment. If my behavior fails to meet acceptable
military standards, I may be discharged and given a
certificate for less than honorable service, which may
hurt my future job opportunities and my claim for
veteran's benefits.

(3) Subject to the military justice system, which
means, among other things, that I may be tried by
military courts-martial.

(Snipped (9) 4 through 6 as they are NA)

10. MILITARY SERVICE OBLIGATION FOR ALL
MEMBERS OF THE ACTIVE AND RESERVE COMPONENTS,
INCLUDING THE NATIONAL GUARD.

a. FOR ALL ENLISTEES: If this is my initial enlistment,
I must serve a total of eight (8) years. Any part
of that service not served on active duty must be served
in a Reserve Component unless I am sooner discharged.

Source

That should clear things up since this for applies to all services



[edit on 6/3/2007 by shots]

Zeeon, I really don't know why you keep claiming the regulations, laws and rules don't apply to the Marine anymore. The only difference is that he is not in active duty, but he is still serving his obligation with the military.

You say that you are in the military. I starting to believe that, whether or not you are in the military, that you just want to rebel against military rules and regulations.

If you want to go to a protest in your military uniform, if you are in the military, and if you are seen by a higher ranking officer, you will also get in trouble. But you can do whatever you want, rules are rules whether you want to accept them or not.

If the guy had hired - say - a fancy dress uniform without the identifying insignia on it, which in all respects may very well be identical to the marine one he was issued while serving, would he be in breach then?

If not, whats the difference exactly?

Originally posted by neformore
If the guy had hired - say - a fancy dress uniform without the identifying insignia on it, which in all respects may very well be identical to the marine one he was issued while serving, would he be in breach then?

If not, whats the difference exactly?

As long as he has not fulfilled his/her militray contract; wearing any uniform other then his normal uniform with his insignia would be considered to be out of uniform.

Many bases/posts also state you can only wear dress uniforms to and from work if yu live off base while others permit fatigues to and from the base, but you cannot enter a store and shop wearing fatigues, yet you could if you were in dress uniform.

Originally posted by shots
As long as he has not fulfilled his/her militray contract; wearing any uniform other then his normal uniform with his insignia would be considered to be out of uniform.

But I thought he didnt wear any insignia at that protest...then if so then surely he was "out of uniform" and hence wasnt wearing his uniform at a protest? Yes/ no?

Many bases/posts also state you can only wear dress uniforms to and from work if yu live off base while others permit fatigues to and from the base, but you cannot enter a store and shop wearing fatigues, yet you could if you were in dress uniform.

Thats a bit.....harsh isnt it? Not letting you go into a shop with fatigues on...?

Originally posted by devilwasp
But I thought he didnt wear any insignia at that protest...then if so then surely he was "out of uniform" and hence wasnt wearing his uniform at a protest? Yes/ no?

For the US military the term "out of uniform" doesn't mean mean the person is out of uniform. Stripping your unifrom of rank and service tapes is by no means an excuse and you are still in uniform. "out of uniform" is a term used to say that someone is wearing their unifrom out of regulations...improper insignia, missing cover, no rank, etc... It's not literal, just a figure of speech. Well, That's the way it is in the Marines anyways.

Thats a bit.....harsh isnt it? Not letting you go into a shop with fatigues on...?

Service members are not supposed to wear their cammies or fatigues off base unless at a sponsored event (recruiting, community service, etc). It's been that way for a long time. Marines are allowed to wear certain uniforms on liberty.

www.marinecorps.com...

Because the Blue Dress uniform is considered formal wear, Blue Dress "C" and "D" are rarely worn. The main exception are Marine Recruiters and Marine Corps Security Guards, which will wear the "C" and "D" in warm weather. Only the "B", "C", and "D" Blue Dress uniforms are authorized for leave and liberty wear; the "A" is not.

***snip***

Like the Blue Dress uniform, the service uniform is authorized for wear while off-duty (on leave or liberty).

***snip***

Unlike the Dress and Service uniforms, utilities are generally not permitted for wear on liberty (while off-duty). Except for essential commuting tasks, e.g. picking up children from daycare or purchasing gas, the wear of utilities in public is prohibited.

The regulations are clear, no room for any misundrstanding. While I agree that a dishonorable discharge is extreme, the Marine did violate the orders and should be held accountable. Personally I feel he should keep his honorable discharge, hopefully some other lesser punichmant will suffice.

[edit on 4/6/2007 by SportyMB]