Marine veteran faces hearing on discharge status for wearing uniform at protest rally

St Udio,

the clarity of your post should cover it all but this argument will continue anyway.

Like it or not, this guy is owned by the government until such time as he is completely released. He is subject to whatever the military deems him to be.

He has no case and IMO is nothing more than a trouble maker as his record and hostile response to his superior indicates.

I would also like to point out how people like FlyersFan accuses someone of "Misconduct" as if they themselves are saints. Again, hyprocisy at it's finest. How many of you are guilty of something? He who has not sinned cast the first stone!

And you use that against this marine DESPITE the fact I already showed everyone that he HAS NOT broken any laws, HAS NOT comitted a crime, and IS NOT being taken to court martial. This, in of itself, should be obvious to all but some of you guys. I even went so far as to quote an article about a REAL case that has a direct influence (how are inactive reservists held accountable) on this one. Yet, all you naysayers disregard all of that and continue to spout nonsensical hatred.

I thought this website was about denying ignorance! Yeah RIGHT !

I guess the old saying is right - there is no honor among thieves. Most of the naysayers here disregard all the good things this man has accomplished, for two wrongs (one which we are debating), and are willing to let him hang. Cool. Why don't we all just backstab each other now, and get it over with.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out the obviously misuse and abuse of the post star rating system. People like Jbondo for the post above get 3 stars, and FlyersFan gets 4/5 stars for posting their opinions, and I get 1 star for actually doing some research. Yeah THATS FAIR !

[edit on 1-6-2007 by zeeon]

My husband a retired Marine and veteran of the first gulf war, he said that due to the touchy situation right now with Iraq war and the public opinion regarding the military treatments of soldiers, he may get charges but it probably will end up in nothing.

This will make too much of a media circus that would not look good on the government right now.

Originally posted by zeeon
Although I probably shouldn't be surprised by most of the posters on this thread, I really am.

I have provided you with proof that the DOD doesn't have legal jurisidction over this former Marine (on the basis that he is inactive reserves).

I took some time to actually read the article instead of just reading what the members are saying.

First of all, he is in the IRR, even if in inactive duty he still has military service obligation remaining, which means the DOD still has jurisdiction over his conduct when wearing an issued military uniform.

Second, a superior officer sent him a letter regarding the protest he attended wearing his military uniform, and the Marine decided to respond with obscenities to a superior officer, while still being in the military. That did not help him in the least.



[edit on 1-6-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by zeeon
I would also like to point out how people like FlyersFan accuses someone of "Misconduct" as if they themselves are saints. Again, hyprocisy at it's finest. How many of you are guilty of something? He who has not sinned cast the first stone!

It is still misconduct while serving in the military. He is not a civilian yet, not technically, even if his lawyer is claiming he is.

He could have attended the protest in civilian clothing and nothing would have happened to him.

Originally posted by zeeon
I would also like to point out how people like FlyersFan accuses someone of "Misconduct" as if they themselves are saints. Again, hyprocisy at it's finest. How many of you are guilty of something? He who has not sinned cast the first stone!

And you use that against this marine DESPITE the fact I already showed everyone that he HAS NOT broken any laws, HAS NOT comitted a crime, and IS NOT being taken to court martial. This, in of itself, should be obvious to all but some of you guys. I even went so far as to quote an article about a REAL case that has a direct influence (how are inactive reservists held accountable) on this one. Yet, all you naysayers disregard all of that and continue to spout nonsensical hatred.

I thought this website was about denying ignorance! Yeah RIGHT !

I guess the old saying is right - there is no honor among thieves. Most of the naysayers here disregard all the good things this man has accomplished, for two wrongs (one which we are debating), and are willing to let him hang. Cool. Why don't we all just backstab each other now, and get it over with.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out the obviously misuse and abuse of the post star rating system. People like Jbondo for the post above get 3 stars, and FlyersFan gets 4/5 stars for posting their opinions, and I get 1 star for actually doing some research. Yeah THATS FAIR !

[edit on 1-6-2007 by zeeon]

zeeon,

I'm sorry that you're not getting your way here but maybe that should tell you something. Your trying to make this into a civil matter which it is not. So you can talk about civil liberties all you want but they don't apply here.

First the guy is involved in a "mock patrol" wearing military fatigues. For someone who claims to "love the Marine Corps." this is like slapping them in the face. Then when he was questioned by a superior he responded with obscenity. This is not the first time he got into trouble either. As for his service, none of us really knows whether he was a good soldier in the past or not.

Yes we all have done things wrong in life but we are talking about this guy not FF. However, I agree there is a point at which we should mind what we say.

Finally never really payed attention to points or stars or whatever so that is something I can't comment on.

Originally posted by Muaddib

I took some time to actually read the article instead of just reading what the members are saying.

First of all, he is in the IRR, even if in inactive duty he still has military service obligation remaining, which means the DOD still has jurisdiction over his conduct.

I understand what your saying, but it's a grey area. I just got done discussing this very topic with a senior navy enlisted and senior marine enlisted. Both at are odds with each other, because it's such a grey area.

It is seriously debatable wether or not an inactive servicemember is under UCMJ jurisidiction in this case. I believe he is not, and he has the right to freedom of speech and expression. I have, as of yet, seen, or been shown any proof to disprove that belief. All I have seen so far is speculation and opinion.

I respect those opinions, but I don't agree with it. I myself wouldn't have done what the Marine did, but I will not condemn him for it. I stand not only to protect his freedoms, but mine, and yours as well.

Originally posted by zeeon
......................
I respect those opinions, but I don't agree with it. I myself wouldn't have done what the Marine did, but I will not condemn him for it. I stand not only to protect his freedoms, but mine, and yours as well.

He has all the right in the world to make his opinion, but not wearing an issued military uniform while still under military service obligation, and much less does he have a right to insult an officer when he is technically still serving his military obligation.

He could have just gone to the protest, in civilian clothes, and nothing would have happened to him.

[edit on 1-6-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by jbondo
zeeon,

I'm sorry that you're not getting your way here but maybe that should tell you something. Your trying to make this into a civil matter which it is not. So you can talk about civil liberties all you want but they don't apply here.

I don't need your apologises, as well meaning as they might be. It's not about me getting my way. It is a civil matter - I think posters attitudes about this reflect in part what is wrong with society today. I'm trying to illicit atleast a bit of sympathy for this young man, yet almost everyone save 2 or 3 people have no qualms about him getting punished unfairly.

First the guy is involved in a "mock patrol" wearing military fatigues. For someone who claims to "love the Marine Corps." this is like slapping them in the face. Then when he was questioned by a superior he responded with obscenity. This is not the first time he got into trouble either. As for his service, none of us really knows whether he was a good soldier in the past or not.

The fact that he was honorably discharged should tell you that he was at the very least, a decent soldier. He was using his freedom of expression to drive a point home to anyone paying attention. That not everyone is happy about the war, and even those are fighting it are feeling the same.
You can't love something and be unhappy about it's current situation? How about our country? I love my country, but I'm certainly unhappy about it's current political situations. Because I feel that way, am I "slapping my country in the face?"

Admitedly, he did get into trouble, yes. He went to NJP (non-judicial punishment), lost a rank, did some restriction, and now he's back. I know people who drink too much, go do something stupid like urinate on a wall, and get the same punishment. That is the military life style. It doesn't mean he was a "troublemaker" or a horrible person.

Yes we all have done things wrong in life but we are talking about this guy not FF. However, I agree there is a point at which we should mind what we say.

I take it your remark to FF is about final fantasy. I'll take that insult with stride. I love FF, particularily FF7, not a big fan of 8 or 9. I love Fable too, and that stars with an F. I'm even playing the lost chapters now too on my xbox. Cool huh?

Originally posted by Muaddib
....much less does he have a right to insult an officer when he is technically still serving his military obligation.

That actually has no bearing on this. Again, freedom of speech. He's inactive reserve and this officer was not in his chain of command. Was it inpolite? Sure. You're probably assuming it was a big F-You bomb, but it could have been as simple as a "I don't give a sh**". Both are obcenities.

The problem with your guy's argument is that you keep referring to him as if he's in an active duty status, which he is not. The only obligation he has to the military is to report to his ordered duty station when / if recalled. That's it. He could even use drugs if he wanted too, as long as he didn't use them under his active duty service contract. The findlaw article proves this.

I am pleased to see that at least the VFW is sticking up for this guy even if our own self-proclaimed super-patriots aren't.

Originally posted by xmotex
I am pleased to see that at least the VFW is sticking up for this guy even if our own self-proclaimed super-patriots aren't.

You wouldn't know what a patriot is if he/she bit you in the face.

The Marine, he is still under military obligation, could have just made the protest in civilian clothes... Noone is saying he shouldn't be saying what he wants to say, but he shouldn't have wore his military uniform in a protest, while still in the military.

Originally posted by Muaddib
You wouldn't know what a patriot is if he/she bit you in the face.

The Marine, he is still under military obligation, could have just made the protest in civilian clothes... Noone is saying he shouldn't be saying what he wants to say, but he shouldn't have wore his military uniform in a protest, while still in the military.

Are you over the age of 18? If so, you are obligated to sign up for the selective service. If you haven't, you are violating federal law. If you have, you too are also under obligation to the federal government. You, if a draft is called away, can be called to active duty.

Inactive reserves is the exact same for active duty servicemembers. The Military spent upwards (or more) of a year to train a service member. After your 4 active, they want to be able to recall you incase of an emergency or war. That is it's only purpose.

So if you go around to a war protest, and wear a uniform - under your own logic - you too are guilty. No you say? Because you aren't subject to the UCMJ? RIGHT! Your not, because your either Selective Service or Inactive Reserve (they are one and the same - one being for civilians, the other being for discharged service members).

That is my point.

You wouldn't know what a patriot is if he/she bit you in the face.

I could say the same to you - true patriotism is more than blind loyalty to leadership, more than a fanatical devotion to a set of symbols.

But I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

xmotex,

Well said, I was thinking the same thing. Being a patriot is more than just following rules, etc. Thanks for still posting in this thread and standing up.

Originally posted by zeeon

this is the DOD trying to squash bad publicity, and damn well could be a precursor to restrictions to our own fundamentally basic rights of free speech.

Yes, he certainly was out of uniform.

This man has put his life on the line to defend the freedoms and rights of all citizens. If they are allowed to get away with this then what was it he was really fighting for? It doesn't sound like freedom to me.

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. This guy's a clown and not worth 1/10th of the effort of these posts. While he may have been technically correct by removing the name tapes and insignia from his old uniform before wearing it to the protest, he had to have known that there was the possibility of his being called on it. Yes he may have been within his rights at the protest, but his response to the letter sent to him by the Marines was dead wrong. If he would have just accepted the letter and then relplied with a letter of his own explaining what he did this issue would have been dropped and that would have been it. No, this moron had to go and reply with a letter full of obsenities. This is what is going to get him in trouble. While he could have walked up to a Marine officer and called him any name or obscenety he chose and nothing could have been done about it (except for the officer beating him to a pulp) he replied to official Marine Corp business with this letter. That does violate the UCMJ and if it doesn't get his discharge classification changed, it could get him called back to active duty and then his troubles would really begin.

Originally posted by RRconservative
The government does have a case because he is still on Individual Ready Reserve. When you sign up for the military you sign up for 8 years, you may serve 3-4 years on active duty, but the remainer of the time you are still under obligation to be called back at any time.

www.signonsandiego.com...

Kokesh is part of the Individual Ready Reserve, a segment of the reserves that consists mainly of those who have left active duty but still have time remaining on their eight-year military obligations.

His attorney, Mike Lebowitz, said Kokesh's IRR status ends June 18. He said at least three other veterans have been investigated because of their involvement at demonstrations.

Other terms of being on IRR is staying in shape, meeting weight restrictions, and basically being a respectable citizen.

The discharge could be changed from "honorable" to "less than honorable", not "dishonorable".

Got to agree with the government on this one. Ignorance is no excuse.




[edit on 31-5-2007 by RRconservative]

[edit on 31-5-2007 by RRconservative]

A uniform is a set of standard clothing worn by members of an organization whilst participating in that organization's activity.

Anyway, as long as all the insignias are removed it wouldn't seem like a problem to me – it'd just be clothing, maybe Military issue clothing, but nothing signifing the service other than camouflage.

But, I'm not military ... so, that's just a civilian opinion.

I spoke with my husband who worked Legal in the Marine Corps. He dealt with issues like this all the time. He said no matter active or inactive reserves, until his contract is up and he is completely discharged he is under the laws of the Military. Furthermore, again active or inactive, he can not be in uniform and especially what everyone is calling fatigues. Those are only to be worn on base and during official business during a business day. If he was off base he should have been wearing the blue dress pants (with blood stripe depending on rank) and the tan shirt. So he violated several matters when it came to uniforms. Also, since he is still part of the military (inactive reserves) what he did by removing certain aspects of the uniform is also a violation of military standards. My husband read the article as well and he seems to think that this matter is a consequence of his insubordination to a superior rather than a matter of free speech. I'll take my husands opinion on the matter considering he worked Legal in the Marine Corps, and dealt with legal matters daily.

Originally posted by zeeon

Are you over the age of 18? If so, you are obligated to sign up for the selective service. If you haven't, you are violating federal law. If you have, you too are also under obligation to the federal government. You, if a draft is called away, can be called to active duty.

Inactive reserves is the exact same for active duty servicemembers. The Military spent upwards (or more) of a year to train a service member. After your 4 active, they want to be able to recall you incase of an emergency or war. That is it's only purpose.

I served in the U.S. Military in Aircrew/AW on the VS 24 Sea Control Squadron "The Scouts", last stationed in NAS Jax (Jacksonville Florida). Signing up for the Selective Service is not the same as still having a military service obligation. He is technically still in the military because he has not finished the time he signed for when he enlisted.

For a while i actually though he had served his military service obligation because of what some members have been saying.

[edit on 1-6-2007 by Muaddib]