what about these darn immigrants?

Well if we are going to give them amnesty then no half measures.
1. Full right to vote, run for and obtain office. It is believed that they like to vote and vote often in large percentages. They should be able to control their on destiny with true representation. Our country was founded on that, they should not be excluded to protect those that hold office now. Full legal fairness should have a recall vote within 90 days for all offices in districts that have greater than 20% increase in newly legal Americans.

2. Right to a full and equitable wage and legal authority to sue for lost back wages. Justification was always that it was a need of labor not a want of lower labor costs. Many companies made lots of money with illegal workers. Time to put that money where your mouth is and prove in was needed all these years.

3. Close examination of insurance companies and Departments of Taxation. With lots of new money coming in, we should see lowered rates to individual customers and taxpayers. 12-20 million estimated should show a reflection in ecconomy of scale within 6-12 months maximum.

4. National Debt should show great improvement as less of GDP will be sent across the border. Spending should also be curbbed by all those new motivated and hard working politicians from the recalls. There should be a marked reduction in graft and corruption because they understand and follow laws already in place like bribery and accepting gifts from lobbyists.

Yep, no half measures that would unconstitutionally jeapordise the 13th and 15th Ammendments of the Constitution have an implied return of the first half of of Article 1, Section 2 paragraph 3. While the 3/5 rule has not been mentioned specifically, the current amnesty bill creates partial citizens without full rights and protections unless it includes my first two points.

It only seems like a good idea if you want some one else to die for your incompetence, greed, ignorance, lazyness and cowardice under a false flag. Yeah, seems like you just want to change who the government uses as cannon fodder. Are you tired of being exploited yourself? Good job blueeyes.

In true honesty, most people who have a problem with illegal immigrants do seem to be racially motivated, even though you will deny it. Why?

1- Most people, specially here on ATS, generalize illegals as being Mexicans.

2- There are far greater problems affecting all humans living on this planet, and people chose to focus their time and energy on a single issue, illegal immigration, and even propose a solution for it, instead of doing the same for the world's issues that can in turn solve the illegal immigration problem.

3- You oppose humans who, according to you and your government laws, and their government and laws also, are just escaping a life were they cannot survive. Then you come out and say they are not worthy, that they should respect the laws of the country, and that it is their problem and they should just solve it.

As for whom ever brought out those estatistics. Can you please shows us the numbers pertaining to the rest of the known states, I think it is a total of 50 but I'm not sure, let me google it...

What do the numbers look like there? The illegal ones first, then the non illegal ones. Just to compare and contrast.

I might have an idea for a solution, but I have to go, I'm off already. Laters...

If you dont have a Navajo, Apache, Sioux, Cheyenne or native american PASSPORT.

All ATS US posters are ILLEGALS...period...

just because you got here first does not make it legal.... You were invaders and the land of north America is still being invaded...

BTW, Illegals aliens can be from europe, google the statas most of you would be surprised, but heck, being white and having blue eyes, makes you legal...right?

ahh the immigrant issue..

well as of now I don't know what to think I mean man I have been to some poor spots of mexico and i can see why they want to come here. but then i get mad that they have FREE medical insurance and I don't and i was born and raised here! (unless there's a way for me to get free insurance anyone know??)

a lot of my family are immigrants but they did it all the correct way and contributed to society got legal jobs and became citizens over the coure of 9 or so years my mom included. not all immigrants come here to mooch. some really do want to have more opportunites. My mother couldn't join the mexican military as a nurse because she was too short. would our military do that? probably not since there's a law against discriminating for reasons like that. but maybe times have changed that was back in the 70s.

anyway also they do all the work that most americans wouldn't do. they pick strawberries and all that im not trying to sound stereotypical or racist here but it IS true they do these things so we can eat fruit and junk.

they work in a lot of the factories as well. what would we do with out them? i say give them a chance or maybe just let a certain flow of them in per year? i have no idea how everything works. but i am for and against it haha so john kerry of me but its true ..i see both sides of the issue. it can be good but yet it can be bad. ah such a crazy situation

oh yeah sorry for zoning in on mexican but it's just that i have personal experience with that and it's the most of what i see since i live in san diego. but i do see A LOT of samolians in my new area. they get free health care too! how do i?

[edit on 1-6-2007 by TheBadge]

Originally posted by sy.gunson

If there is a co-incidence between crime and illegal immigrants it is because they are marginalised and cant ask for help in the normal manner. You push any people into the sidelines and they will act anti socially out of need or desperation.

Boohoo? I suppose Osama Bin Laden just needed a big hug to make things better, then he wouldn't have gone and blown up the WTC.

These aliens first illegally enter the country, then commit crimes and it's our fault because they are "Marginalised"? Those illegals obveiously have no respect for this countries laws or legal citizens either, and we should bend over backwards because of this? It simply doesn't make sense at all.

Originally posted by blueyedevil666
E. There's no way in hell anyone can prevent anyone from seeking liberty and freedom, as no one should deny it. So, stopping the influx of illegal immigration would essentially be and is a waste of time, money and resources.

Law are what denies it. They can try to legally immigrate as per the US law, or they can try and find liberty and freedom in their own country or others that will accept them. Considering how much amnesty for illegal aliens would further put America into debt (figured around the tune of 2 trillion dollars), it really isn't a "waste of money". But I guess emotion is the only thing that should matter in this decision, right? Forget economics and the US law.

[edit on 1-6-2007 by ghaleon12]

Originally posted by kix
If you dont have a Navajo, Apache, Sioux, Cheyenne or native american PASSPORT.

All ATS US posters are ILLEGALS...period...

just because you got here first does not make it legal.... You were invaders and the land of north America is still being invaded...

BTW, Illegals aliens can be from europe, google the statas most of you would be surprised, but heck, being white and having blue eyes, makes you legal...right?

Native american nations have their own sovereignty, the USA has it's sovereignty. American citizens can't be considered illegal aliens if they have citizenship in US territory. By your logic I guess the native Americans are also illegal because they crossed the bering straight from Russia into the Americas.

[edit on 1-6-2007 by ghaleon12]

i am about to drop a bomb on anyone who does not already understand.

the only reason you hear so much fuss about illegals is income tax.

they cant make 11 million people pay, they dont have the resources to audit them.

they cant lock up 11 million people. again lack of resources.

when the 290 million of us see that if none of us paid they couldnt do anything... well golly all hell would break loose now wouldnt it?

Originally posted by blueyedevil666
...we are all immigrants to some degree.

and some more murderous than others. Possibly more murderous than the Mexicans crossing your borders. I believe the ethnic cultures were removed to make way for white "Americans" for the most part!

Originally posted by blueyedevil666
...the condition would be that they (if over 18 and healthy) join a branch of the armed forces for a minimum of 2 years with an option for a full term career in the military.

Why? To protect your asses in time of war so the "non-immigrants" can sit back and relax while the cost of war paid for in lives it as the expense of someone else's brother, father, uncle etc. I am all for equality but I see very little of that in the US even today and this idea is a good example.

Originally posted by blueyedevil666
A. The alien would immediately prove without question that the reason for wanting citizenship is not solely to milk us for the American dollar

I doubt many of them milk the US for the dollar. Infact what they get paid in relation to the profits made from their labours is hardly "milking". I would say they are the ones being milked.

Originally posted by blueyedevil666
B. The alien would accrue monies to go toward a higher education and/or tech skill-set, thereby securing a steady tax paying income to support their families without un-needed hardship

IF they earned a descent wage for their labours they would be able to "accrue" monies for higher education. But, I would think that their current earnings would never support a higher education. You still have African Americans battling to do just that and since their forefathers were bound in chains and were doomed to die as slaves they have never been able to do this as a majority - this has only happened in the minority of those people.

Originally posted by blueyedevil666
C. A crash course in English language and American history

Hmmmm... I believe a lot of white Americans could benefit from MORE than a just crash coarse in English and American history!! I met an illegal while i was in the US a few years back and he spoke better english than some americans i met though with an accent.

Originally posted by blueyedevil666
D. Earn the respect of US citizens as they illustrate a desire to lay down their lives for freedom

Do they illustrate this desire or are they forced to exercise someone else's desire to have them do so?? It is a great minority who are all gung ho and actually are personally compelled to do this. I look at the US and I honestly do not see a land that is really free. I think the battle needs to start at home. Start with giving the indians back their land...

Originally posted by blueyedevil666
E. There's no way in hell anyone can prevent anyone from seeking liberty and freedom, as no one should deny it. So, stopping the influx of illegal immigration would essentially be and is a waste of time, money and resources.

Bingo. That is one of the most sensible things said yet. Turn it to the countries advantage - treat them fairly and make them work an honest job and let them earn a proper salary and contribute to the economy. If they are taking jobs from Americans then the Americans didn't want the job in the first place or unemployment would be close to zero.

[edit on 1/6/2007 by shearder]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
I do not look kindly on those that run from one place to a sanctuary when they could stay and work to make their homeland better. Cowards.

Sounds like a lot of Americans before they became "American"!! Where did your forefathers run from? I recon 90% of todays Americans are a product of just such an escape.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
However, so long as an illegal has NO crimes whatsoever against him, and they take a crash course in English and American history, I see no problem letting them stay.

As i said in a previous post in this thread, it would benefit the US if a lot of Americans took a coarse in English and history. Hell, some people do not know about anything outside of their state or county for that matter.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
All money by illegal aliens made citizens sent across borders should be taxed a minimum of 50%...

Why??? You already make $50 to their $1 and i can guarantee they shed a hell of a lot more sweat to get that $1 than you would to get the $50 and then you want 50c of that back? I guess in retrospect that's what America was built on - a LOT of exploitation.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
None of this would happen, as America (and I find soooooo weird.. the liberal left) love cheap labor and support them because "they do jobs others wont do"

Sounds like a lot of Americans before they became "American"!! Where did your forefathers run from? I recon 90% of todays Americans are a product of just such an escape.

Indeed, except I am not my great, great, great grandfather now am I?

As i said in a previous post in this thread, it would benefit the US if a lot of Americans took a coarse in English and history. Hell, some people do not know about anything outside of their state or county for that matter.

I wouldn't doubt that, but it entirely besides the point and 100% irrelevant.

Why??? You already make $50 to their $1 and i can guarantee they shed a hell of a lot more sweat to get that $1 than you would to get the $50 and then you want 50c of that back? I guess in retrospect that's what America was built on - a LOT of exploitation.

Ohh you know my personal income now? Such complete ignorance is incredibly annoying sometimes.

The average personal income of an illegal alien is $30,000 a year.

I work with illegals .. in fact there is only one other English speaker on my crew and hes on a 2 week vacation. I can assure you, the Mexicans make just as much as I do, and are very strict about when and how they are paid.

Definitely Modern Slavery and it is ok when it suites the need but it is not when the dude killing himself to make a buck needs a band-aid!!

Right.

I need to also add that I do not hate Americans just those too thick or stupid to think past their nose!

Oddly enough I am currently thinking the exact same thing about yourself.

I have american friends and i lived there for a year and I saw and learned a lot that makes me sometimes wonder how lucky those in 3rd world countries actually can be by not being in the same sort of situation and living their own dreams and not the American dream.

Well having an American friend and staying here for A YEAR would make you an expert indeed. Apparently you did not have a good time, and judging by your. ahem. politics, I could only wonder why.

I don't think many Americans live "The American Dream."

They used to.

Something similar to the OP's idea was used successfully for years. The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 allowed aliens to become U.S. citizens after 3 years of honorable service. A treaty between the U.S. and the Phillipines offered thousands of folks U.S. citizenship after serving 3 years in the U.S. Navy.

A couple thousand people a year however is nowhere near the scale that would be required here. If you consider that there are approximately 11 million people in the U.S. illegally. What if 60% of that 11 million took you up on your offer? Add the 1.4 million troops we have now with the 6+ million "New Recruits" and O Boy !

Then you have to ask yourself. Do you really want a 7 million man military comprised mostly of ARMED foreign born nationals?

And if this ever comes to fruition, I can't even imagine the Defence Budget then.

On the brighter side... there would never be a reason to have a Draft.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Sounds like a lot of Americans before they became "American"!! Where did your forefathers run from? I recon 90% of todays Americans are a product of just such an escape.

Indeed, except I am not my great, great, great grandfather now am I?

It is also not 200 years ago but the desire for a better life is the same. They are looking for a better life as did your great, great, great grandfather... They are just not removing people from their land to be able to do that. (THAT does NOT say YOUR Grand dad did that)

As i said in a previous post in this thread, it would benefit the US if a lot of Americans took a coarse in English and history. Hell, some people do not know about anything outside of their state or county for that matter.

I wouldn't doubt that, but it entirely besides the point and 100% irrelevant.

Why 100% irrelevant? I believe it to be relevant to some extent or is it because you feel it so? Why make them learn your history when not all Americans know their history. What will they gain from learning your history?

Why??? You already make $50 to their $1 and i can guarantee they shed a hell of a lot more sweat to get that $1 than you would to get the $50 and then you want 50c of that back? I guess in retrospect that's what America was built on - a LOT of exploitation.

Ohh you know my personal income now? Such complete ignorance

is incredibly annoying sometimes.

Did I mention that this is YOUR income? I was generalizing and this was aimed at industry - unless you hire the illegals yourself and make money out of their labours - i.e. in sweat factories.

The average personal income of an illegal alien is $30,000 a year.

I work with illegals .. in fact there is only one other English speaker on my crew and hes on a 2 week vacation. I can assure you, the Mexicans make just as much as I do, and are very strict about when and how they are paid.

So what does that tell you? You seem very supportive of their tenacity and, may I say, even envious of that. As you well mention, that is average. So if a dude earns $5000 a year and another $55000 a year the average is $30000. As you said, it is an AVERAGE not the norm and there a some way below the breadline.

Definitely Modern Slavery and it is ok when it suites the need but it is not when the dude killing himself to make a buck needs a band-aid!!

Right.

I assume you agree with me on this one.

I need to also add that I do not hate Americans just those too thick or stupid to think past their nose!

Oddly enough I am currently thinking the exact same thing about yourself.

Easy and logical thing to do in your position - I do not hold that against you - I was just stating the obvious which you did not contest. Also note that I did not wage a personal attack on you - however it is your prerogative to assume that I did and get offensive.

I have american friends and i lived there for a year and I saw and learned a lot that makes me sometimes wonder how lucky those in 3rd world countries actually can be by not being in the same sort of situation and living their own dreams and not the American dream.

Well having an American friend and staying here for A YEAR would make you an expert indeed. Apparently you did not have a good time, and judging by your. ahem. politics, I could only wonder why.

I did not insinuate i was an expert at all. I based my comment on what i saw and heard (TV included - news etc) and experienced. What do you detect as being my "politics"? Is it that i believe in equality, human rights and have integrity that makes this stand out? Is it better than what you are accustomed to? Where does that put me? I did have a good time - I played music professionally there so how you picked up I didn't have a good time is beyond me (and you possibly).

I don't think many Americans live "The American Dream."

They used to.

I believe you and agree with you - not anymore and mirror the

Here is a better idea.

They come here for work and accept low wages as a result. So have prisoners do the work that illegal aliens are doing now for a cheaper wage. I believe Arizona is paying their inmates 60 cents a day.

Any illegal alien caught will receive a barcode on their forearm. This way the US can quickly identify them.

Placing them in the military is not a good idea, IMO. I wouldn't feel safe with someone who can't speak English in a foxhole with me. Also, illegal aliens kill 25 American's per day in the US. Yeah, let's give them an M-16.

Well I guess that after cheap labor you would get chep meat for war...Sounds gr8.

Hmn, well i think some people missed my point on the military issue....even during peacetime, or use these immigrants as non-combatant support forces. I didnt mean to insinuate anyone else fight our war for that reason only, or even to use as cannon fodder during wartime. I just feel this would cover alot of the bases that seem to be missing from the equation, initially. The military can be a useful tool in many ways for people that have 'no hope' for a 'future' in terms of career and security of living (as well as respect), especially those that come from parts unknown, all from varying cultures. This would be the place to institute a learning process with a large multi-cultural cross-section of people that generally would have no other options, at least Generation 1, those that actually cross over. It's no secret to anyone, i would think, that even here, our own citizens coming from a disparaged background of poverty and or cycles of inner city violence tend to pursue very successful careers both within and outside our military. This includes the air force as well as the coast guard. Don't think for a minute i meant: "Ok, all you damn aliens line up in formation, grab a rifle and march into battle!"....no no thats just evil.....but done properly the military idea could work to the benefit of the immigrant (education,future, learned skills, earned respect) but also the work/job/industry sectors of our own market that always need brilliant people with new perspectives and ideas, these which have made us (one of) the most tech advanced nations in the world (more or less). I didnt mean to imply killing anyone off on the battlefield guys, sorry for not being more specific.

allow me to re-address my own initial thought in outline form to make my thoughts a bit clearer and less nefarius sounding,:

1. 18-37 and healthy, min. 2 year term

1 year language,history,basic military training, begin courses in cross military(duty)/job market training

1 year military placement in a 'required' position of non-combative (advanced)support, optional additional 2 year term, advanced(OCS) military training with the option for career. Also, like anyone else, training in a field of choice as well as college grant money.

2. Option 2, 18-37 non-healthy 37+ government funded/corporate sponsored training programs in the tech sector run by the military in getting these people ready for independence while granting them a useful career skill.

I would actually prefer to NOT place anyone under the 2 year term into a combat situation. Though keep it optional, with additional incentives.

I cant, honestly, think of a 'better' way to make this work for everyone, the military angle, for all intents and purposes, would garner the respect of existing Americans toward their alien citizens in training in that they are choosing to get a start in a structured training program which would be closely watched by our own government, thereby laying the responsibilty and eyes of the nation on them. They would be accounted for, less likely to commit violent crimes, earn respect for themselves as people and give them hope for the future in the form of actual college money to begin a career of their choice, i see this as a viable option. But, again i could be too idealistic.

I disagree that military service would transfer respect or remove fears and mistrust (real and imagined). Looking at WWI and WWII service of blacks in the military did nothing to change perceptions back home in respect to prejudice and Jim Crow laws. Things remained the same for vets and non-vets alike in civilian life before, during and after the war(s).

So how does this effect particularly nasty war protesters? Instead of soldiers being murders and babykillers they are now Mexican murders and babykillers, that are getting a free ride to citizenship for being Mexican murders and babykillers. Gee, sounds a lot worse.

Also compulsery military service doesn't make the military too happy either. Now they have marginally motivated soldiers most with a language barrier. Imagine the poor R Lee Ermy like DI barking out "Tu gusta gallo? (Do you like rooster?)" And the recruit thinking yeah, I like chicken, and responding "Si" I'll skip the rough translation of the whole reach around bit.

It is an idea and lots of people share the feeling of earning your way as oppossed to the idea of getting off freely. But the military doesn't want a draft right now so I don't think they would support the idea of gateway service.

Amazingly the very people supporting the idea would answer a strong no if they thought it was a good idea to have militant Mexican immigrants as opposed to the untrained ones that are coming into the country now.

You know what would be a better solution? If we got rid of the billion dollar industry pertaining to drugs here in the U.S., which seem to be in high demand. Of course, to accomplish this is to hold accountable and remove the corrupt government of the U.S. that requires its neighboring governments to be corrupt as well in order to secure routes of the wonderful supply. Then, at least those illegal immigrants arriving from the countries to the south will have no need to come to the U.S. because the time and effort spent by those governments will be used to actually better the country, and they would have no fear of being killed and terrorized by "drug cartels".

One thing that this will help also, is if the people of the U.S. stopped the corrupt government, and it's intelligence agency from overthrowing governments left and right and enstating new, even more corrupt ones that will actually comply to their will. I dunno, just a thought...

[edit on 1-6-2007 by souls]

Originally posted by blueyedevil666
A. The alien would immediately prove without question that the reason for wanting citizenship is not solely to milk us for the American dollar

B. The alien would accrue monies to go toward a higher education and/or tech skill-set, thereby securing a steady tax paying income to support their families without un-needed hardship

With all the talk of Aliens shouldn't this topic be in the Aliens and UFO forum?

I am no fan of the 911 Cult but I fail to see the connection with the topic and 911? Is it just me? Or is this a new approach to seek the truth? Golly guys you are really getting desparate.

Originally posted by blueyedevil666
....So, stopping the influx of illegal immigration would essentially be and is a waste of time, money and resources.

Um, not really...... if the border was properly policed and the illegals got kicked back across the boarder instead of getting catered to!

It'd cost less money to properly enforce the boarder than fixing the mess they cause when they get here... did I mention THEY DON'T PAY TAXES?!

Let them become citizens THE PROPER WAY!!! If they're not smart enough to get into the US via the standard procedure then quite honestly let them stay on the other side of the border. We have enough stupid people here already!

I often wonder how Americans would be tolerated if we flocked across the border undocumented, and then demanded the Mexican govt. for amnesty and handouts...

/rant

NOBODY BUT BIG INDUSTRY WANTS YOU HERE!!! GO HOME!!!

[edit on 1-6-2007 by Stale Cracker]

You know, the more I think about it I think the whole nasty problem could be solved if the US just ANNEXED MEXICO. Simply swallow them up and erase the border all-together.... we all win.

The Mexican-Americans can stay put and get all the goodies they so desperately try to steal, I mean need. And the traditional North-American gringos won't feel like their culture is being destroyed by an invading immigrant army. The US can than consume your resources and manpower to elevate you to the quality of living you all so desperately want.

Don't come crying to me when you finally get what you "deserve".... better get used to not getting that siesta hermano!