Concrete Goals for all who actually cares about the truth behind 9/11

This isn't a message only to the 9/11 Truthers out there, this also applies to "Skeptics" or anyone else who cares about the tragedy and ths nation. If you were at all affected by 9/11 then this applies to you.

You have to ask yourself what you'll tolerate in regards to the handling of officials and truth about this matter. For me, if they lie to avoid consequences of their actions / actionless that's intolerable with 9/11; and that's before even gettng into the possible conspiracy behind it. Even if you don't believe there wasn't one, that doesn't mean you shouldn't still support a positive motion to get a real investigation.

There's huge controversy and debate about 9/11, and things that just can't be ignored or tolerated. If someone has an actual argument that a real investigation isn't required I must hear it. Otherwise, it's time we put down our polarized differences on the conjecture issues (bombs, nukes, no planes, missiles, Silverstein, etc) and find the common ground to get the investigation that cwould finally make those issues actually provable (and that goes either way).

I don't have all of the answers, so I'd hoping to get others input here, but I have some ideas that might help get a common ground and some real progress.

New Investigation is Needed, and Fast

If anyone can say otherwise, speak up. If you can't argue with that, then try to throw in some ideas on how to get an investigation that we can believe in. The longer we get away from 9/11 the more pointless it becomes. My ideas are:


Sophisticated Lie Detection on all suspects and related officials

I'm talking about full spectrum lie detection methods using both polygraph and state of the art fMRI brain scanning techniques, preferably both operating at the same time.
www.google.com...

This would apply to everyone who could possibly be investigated, and even the investigators themselves. 3 times with different testers on the VIP characters.


Finding Common Ground

The 9/11 Controversy is highly polarized to the point of the "Truthers" not being able to agree or work together. Unless this stops there won't be any real investigation anytime soon.

The 9/11 Truthers and the "Skeptics" must must find common ground to work together to demand the investigation. Sorry Truthers, but seperating yorself from them is none other than accepting defeat.

Belive it or not there are issues and logical viewpoint that you can reach them with. We all know there are problems with basically everything about 9/11, regardless of the actual truth of the matter, but until everyone reches this common ground there won't be much progress.

We must shed the attitude of wanting an investigation just to prove you're right and they're wrong. I've observed this attitutde and it's total selfishness that will get US nowhere.


Actionable Consensus

Finding common ground will have better progress if there "actionable consensus" issues are found and highlighted and repreated until there's no tomarrow. This would mostly apply to the Truther side, as the Skeptics obviously don't want to accept such. With all of the highly speculative theories out there it's simply too easy for them to ignore the better issues. If things cannot be proven, but is still intolerable, then a more rational approach should be sought after. I tried to do this in that "Insanely Incredible Issues" thread, but don't limit yourself.


There didn't have to be bombs in the towers / WTC7, or Pentagon conspiracy for there to be an actual Conspiracy

I know this this can be hard for some from either side to fathom, but it's true. All they had to do was consciously allow it to happen and it's time for treason convictions and the gas chamber. In light of this view, we already have more than enough grounds to warrant a push for a real investigation. Therefore, you might want to educate yourself on these less sensational dynamics.




Some of my ideas. I don't have all of the answers, so lets hear yours.

[edit on 27-5-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

I think the most important thing is generating some thinking is the conspiracy direction among the masses. This is why I think Rosie O'Donnell's speaking out was a watershed event. (I know, I know, some of you think she's a detraction etc, whatever.)

With that in mind, I bought Loose Change and 911 Mysteries in bulk and handed them out to all my friends, family, and select people at work. For the price I paid, I probably could have bought a DVD burner, but I wanted to support those producers anyway. But anyone with a burner could, and should, be downloading videos like these and burning them to hand out. It's cheap and easy.

Well i think the first things are any official reports.

We do not have the FBI and NTSB crime scene reports for any of the 911 crime scenes.

We do not have any reports of where the parts were taken that were found at the Pentagon.

We do not have any reports about the 2 debris fields caused by Flight 93.

Another great thread that's beyond my abilities to do justice at the moment. You seem to be inspired these days my friend.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
There didn't have to be bombs in the towers / WTC7, or Pentagon conspiracy for there to be an actual Conspiracy

I know this this can be hard for some from either side to fathom, but it's true. All they had to do was consciously allow it to happen and it's time for treason convictions and the gas chamber. In light of this view, we already have more than enough grounds to warrant a push for a real investigation. Therefore, you might want to educate yourself on these less sensational dynamics.

9/11 ... Truth. One day that happened only one way. We have so much evidence still unclear, and yet such certainty over so many divergent theories. There's more psychology than reason involved for "both" sides, with evidence serving more as a Rorschach test than as millestones on the path to truth. I believe reason can cut through this and help us narrow down a range of possibilities worth investigating. I'd guess the real truth is sort of between the official story and the Loose Change story, and at the same time entirely off the scale they create between them.

As for collectively realizing the reality and acting on it, overcoming the cognitive dissonnance, etc., there are a lot of "ifs" to overcome. To either get the current "skeptics" and "OCTers" and "sheeple" to agree its time to bring charges and make systemic changes, or to get us "crazies" to give it up after realizing (on the off-chance) that we were wrong (tho well-justified in our suspcions), certaily seems far off at the moment. I feel pessimistic about the real truth and the public mind intersecting anytime soon for reasons that no amount of cheerleading can counter. I'm afraid the rifts are just too deep, the trajectories just too counter to each other to EVER feel like two parts of the same elephant. New thinking is needed on "both" sides.

However, daydreaming about what we could do "if..." is good practice, and possibly very useful if the "if" becomes reality. I have no concrete ideas at the moment...

edit to change lots of things but I'm done now


[edit on 28-5-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Well i think the first things are any official reports.

We do not have the FBI and NTSB crime scene reports for any of the 911 crime scenes.

We do not have any reports of where the parts were taken that were found at the Pentagon.

We do not have any reports about the 2 debris fields caused by Flight 93.

Exactly. Like they couldn't give them up. Perfect reasons to push for an investigation so that every shred of evidence and reports etc are put right on the table (and the internet).

Giving them the benefit of the doubt: they have nothing to hide.
Someting for them to think about: Keep toying with us and we'll get madder and madder (it's mostly about the principle for me anyways).

I blame them for the conspiracy theories, adn that goes whether or not the theories are or aren't true.

Thanks. I've really been tring to perfect my overall view on this vast 9/11 issue. I've mostly say back and avoided too much 9/11 debate all this time. Been sitting back and observing whats wrong with the entire ordeal, and the biggest thing on the list is the left/right paralleled mentality that has evolved in 9/11's wake.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
I'd guess the real truth is sort of between the official story and the Loose Change story, and at the same time entirely off the scale they create between them.

It could be actually quite simpler than most would suspect. It can still be "MIHOP" without bombs and fake hijackers and missiles etc. It only has to be LIHOP, and its time for action.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Exactly. Like they couldn't give them up. Perfect reasons to push for an investigation so that every shred of evidence and reports etc are put right on the table (and the internet).

Giving them the benefit of the doubt: they have nothing to hide.
Someting for them to think about: Keep toying with us and we'll get madder and madder (it's mostly about the principle for me anyways).

I blame them for the conspiracy theories, adn that goes whether or not the theories are or aren't true.

We can access other crime scene reports why not the 911 reports ?

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
the biggest thing on the list is the left/right paralleled mentality that has evolved in 9/11's wake.

I doubt that could have ever been avoided given that the terror attacks of that day have been used as a political weapon ever since.

Re LIHOP vs MIHOP: LIHOP was my first impression, instant upon hearing the news om 9/11 and persisting since. MIHOP thoughts only really occurred to me after I saw others make them. Remote control and demolitions didn't cross my mind at first, but once they had they've stuck to some degree. As time has gone on and I've seen failed theories turn to dust, seen the disinfo and deflection arounnd the Pentagon issue, I'm coming back around more to the simple LIHOP scenario, but with a noteworthy emphasis on how perfectly it all lined up with the mythology they needed. But that's a personal journey...

I have way more questions than answers here for getting something wider going on. IF we could get an actionable consensus on what happened (or a range of possibilities anyway), what SHOULD we do? What COULD we do? Clearly allowing thousands of people to die and a world to be traumatized to unleash political capital, imperal mobilization, more war and deaths, is a crime there's hardly a fit punishment for. Then we have the question of who was in on it, how systemic the problems are, how many were complicit in the cover-up and silence, how we'll get anywhere without the help of SOMEONE in DC, when most seem guilty of at least this. We have the old issues of centraliztion of response; Without a strong center and a heirarchy that can mobilize resources as one mind, we can do little, but with centralization, infiltration and diversion are invited almost to the point of inevitability. This is one that still stumps me as an anarchist at heart.

Again, I'm pessimitic, but communication and reason CAN work. We'll need to use 100% of our brain power to figure out how to appeal to the dark questions buried inside everyone, and how to tame our own certainties to respond to the evidence more solidly. We'll need even more of this if another major event happens and closes logic down in favor of fear.

The Truth movement has to live up to its name. We all have to be more interested in the 'Truth' then in our own ideas. We must also realize some of our strengths can be our weaknesses as well. What I mean by that is 'conspiracy' driven thinking is a double edged sword. If we are not careful the sword can cut us as well. This is why we have to build a case that has strong circumstantial evidence as well as scientific.

We must be willing to admit we are wrong when we are wrong and we must be willing to engage the skeptics and use the skeptics to further the interests of truth.

Agreed talisman, both sides need to be skeptical and flexible for the other's view. I've read more than I have in a long time, countless contradictions and simple explanations for complicated events. The goal is in sight if the discussions have reached this stage, even if only in the preliminary sence. Coming together under somekind of loose(excuse the use of this word) union, not agreeing on everything, but united in wanting all relavant evidence to 911 being witheld to be released. I know this is mainly a dream at this stage, but I'm not the only one.

I'm with you Ultima let the people have the info so WE can decide for ourselves!

edit for spelling

[edit on 5/28/2007 by infinityoreilly]

Dig. Skepticism isntonly doubting others views, its doubting everything. Shhhh... don't tell the "Skeptics" that. Everyone should be skeptic, a skeptic... but not a "Skeptic".

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


Sophisticated Lie Detection on all suspects and related officials

I'm talking about full spectrum lie detection methods using both polygraph and state of the art fMRI brain scanning techniques, preferably both operating at the same time.


This would apply to everyone who could possibly be investigated, and even the investigators themselves. 3 times with different testers on the VIP characters.

I agree with everything you have said except this. None of these lie detectors are 100 percent accurate, and they never will be IMO. If they were 100 percent accurate there would be no need for trials and juries.

Everything else you posted sounds like a good plan though. IMO I believe everyone should want to reopen the investigation. Both sides of the spectrum would benefit from a properly conducted investigation.

So you're saying having Bush, Cheney, CLinton, etc simply testify under oath is the best solution?

The combination of the 2 methods into one format will lead to unprecidented transparency in a matter like this.

I'll chime in, first and foremost you have to distance yourself from ideas and presentations that are for lack of a better word, loony. Best way to mentally gear up for it is just divorce the "truth movement" altogether. Reform as the "fact movement". Deal only in concrete facts. Best movie quote to explain the difference was when Prof Jones state that Archaeology is the search for Fact not truth, if you want Truth go down the hall to ....philosophy class.

Try to avoid linking a series of events that depend on each other. The perception is house of cards, dominos if/when one fails then they all fail by association. Yes that is a victim of generalising but you got tough competition across that way spouted by the loonies. Your message might be completely different, but to those with preconceptions it will sound the same.

Be very aware of endgame results. Advocating revolution, profits from your work or anything else other than clearly a quest to uncover facts and philonthropical sharing of information can be used against you.

Keep political, religious, and personal feelings far and removed from your presentations. Anything found to have a whiff of agenda will be labeled as agenda and will discredit your findings. Avoid offending remarks and accept an error if pointed out.

If you are missing a piece of the puzzle and have to make a leap, be very forward and honest about it. If you don't know if the terrorists had a brand name or cheap Chinesse made boxcutter, say so. That way you avoid someone that does know from pointing it out and dismissing everything out of hand. Even when people don't agree on a subject they do tend to help each other out. Baffling social nature for sure, but it won't help if you are extremely opposed.

Appearance and demenor has to be forthright and calm at all times. One of the biggest laughs I ever had was a hardcore looking punk rock girl with a pink spiked mohawk, piercings and tatoos speak in a shy small school girl apologetic voice when she almost bumped into me while waiting in line. Basically she looked like she would slit my throat for a quarter but acted like she was afraid I would beat her on GP.

Encourage discussion but don't pander for it if they flatly refuse. If they are hostile just calmly nod and ask that we agree to disagree. If they are irrational just move on and don't respond to baited taunts. It is better swallow a little pride than to make a scene. Others are aways watching and your action speak louder than words. By this method you can select supporters carefully and explain the difference between Truth and Fact.


Of course you may wish to take all that with a grain of salt since I am often called a disinfo/shill/sheep/whatever and as a simple search with verify, I am by no means above speaking a little comedy for my own amusement.



[edit on 29-5-2007 by Ahabstar]

Originally posted by yuefo
With that in mind, I bought Loose Change and 911 Mysteries in bulk and handed them out to all my friends, family, and select people at work.

Show them this video instead.

video.google.com...

Originally posted by Ahabstar
I'll chime in, first and foremost you have to distance yourself from ideas and presentations that are for lack of a better word, loony. Best way to mentally gear up for it is just divorce the "truth movement" altogether. Reform as the "fact movement".

Bingo. I'd give you a WATS vote if I "had any left".

There's a real title.

I've been trying to think of one, but whenever I do I get caught up in my idea for an across the board truth movement, as 9/11 was only a symptom.

WATS, nah not really...guess I proved my point about about helping others being a social nature...lousy...gregarious...instincts...

Just keep the loonies off your path. And thank you for the compliment, IIB.

The more I think about it (and read other threads) the more I am convienced that there is great and immediate need for a division between the Truth Movement and the Fact Movement.

I have no problem debunking the majority of glut of silliness put out by the Truthers, but might have to capitulate to a conversion to the Facters (Factors--perhaps just Facts or FM). I mean anyone with a rational and open mind sitting on the fence will fall one way or the other. I feel that if properly maintained it allows for the option of the coin landing on edge instead of just a heads or tails result.

Definately for those that don't completely buy the offical story but will take it over what the Truth Movement has become.

i agree with the original poster, i mean drill bush and cheney hard, smackem in the testes a few times. Id laugh.