Insanely Incredible Issues as Proof of a 9/11 Conspiracy

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss


Well, since most of the links in the OP are broken, I cannot respond to them. However, looking at the subject lines, there are a few things to address.

WTC 7, FDNY members are on record that they fully expected WTC 7 to collapse. Silverstein's statement? Type A personality trying to show that he had some kind of say in a day where he was absolutely powerless. Unless of course you believe one of two things, 1. A crew of Supermen, ran into a heavily damaged and burning building to set a world speed record for wiring a building for demolition...since it normally takes MONTHS to set up an implosion rig, which should actually clue you that it was not an option or 2. The building was already wired for demolition which has its own problems, primarily that the rig survived having WTC 1 carve giant holes out of it or that NO ONE ever noticed the miles of wiring and holes in their office walls that would be needed to have the building rigged.

Neither 1 nor 2 are even remotely plausible.

Pools of liquid metal? That's easy. There were literally dozens of metals used in the construction of the Towers with relatively low melting points. THEN they dropped into a hole that had fires being fed by constant flow of air from the PATH tunnels...crude, but effective, blast furnace.

GW Bush...saw on the news that an airplane hit the first tower. Conspiracy theorists turned that into he "saw video of the first plane hitting the Tower"


Like I said, when you actually look at the evidence, the 9/11 truth movement is full of hot air.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

The most important thing to remember (by both sides) is that debunking the "LC arguments" doesn't disprove the existence of a conspiracy. All they had to do was consciously allow it to happen, case closed, line up the firing squad on national TV.

My concern is because we NEED a REAL investigation, and so far getting one isn't going good, meanwhile most people that are aware of the subject at all are caught up in the same diversionary issues.

A couple of thoughts here..

1. People say the strangest things while having the strangest memories. Doesn't make any of it truly reality, just screwed up memories. We all have them, just don't know it until something else that is factual is match up then we say damn my memory of it all is so skewed.

2. 10,000 engineers say one thing and one says another and somehow that one is correct and the other 10,000 are incorrect. This seems to be a common path in most conspiracies where huge amount of work and data is gathered by cherry picking to make their point with all other data ignored.

3. You can prove the sky is red on the internet, well until you just look outside. A good example is the vast amount of work done on the mass killings suggesting they were faked with actors. One just needs to talk to a couple of people hurt or talk to the families that lost a love one to prove that huge amount of effort all proving how fake they were is totally wrong.

4. Occam's Razor is ignored. It seems people do not look past their hypothesis very far otherwise they would see it spin off in so many different directions that it just becomes a very unlikely hypothesis. With the Pentagon why would they risk a missile when they already were able to use 3 planes, why not a 4th plane instead of a highly risky missile attack? How about the local people around there that actually saw a plane? Did they crash the exact airline first at high speeds some where else and then truck the few parts that didn't discinigrate to the missle crash site to plant them with no one seeing? I think not....

5. Follow the Logistics. Many times this means 100s, 1000, or even 10,000s of people would need to be involved along with whole industries in support. Not very likely to say the least.

6. It's been 15 years now with nothing new....kind of supect that there is nothing new...

a reply to: Xtrozero

A couple of thoughts here..

You keep bringing up the real facts about 911.
But what you fail to realize is conspiracy theories have no basis in fact.
They are by nature a hypothesis supported by conjecture.

If any of the conspiracy hawkers were rushed to the ER and the attending doctor diagnosed them the way they diagnosed 911, they would run out of the hospital.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
5. Follow the Logistics. Many times this means 100s, 1000, or even 10,000s of people would need to be involved along with whole industries in support. Not very likely to say the least.

The CIA have been perpetrating illegal operations all over the world since shortly after WW2 (like dozens of different incident eras in as many different nations from Central & South America to Africa to the Middle East that are now confirmed). (Confirmed) operation types include over-throwing democratically elected leaders, rigging elections, assassinations, economic warfare, training "disappear squads", radicalizing Islam, employing Al Qaeda / Osama Bin laden (as late as 2001 in the Balkins) and probably every other sort of black ops wickedness you could imagine.

How often do you hear some explosive whistleblower testimony erupt about any of them? Note there are parallel operatives, not even truly in the CIA, out in the field basically working side by side with them, to further the personnel count related to all of this. So far, the last time I heard, only one has come forward:


You dont really. For instance we generally really only got the picture about cases such as Operation CONDOR (and several similar / related Central & South American nation 'assaults') from FOIA documents released forever later.

These are things done in other places, to places and peoples 'nobody' here really cares about. So now imagine how jumping for joy someone from here would be to come forward.

Have you ever researched Operation CONDOR?

originally posted by: Xtrozero
4. Occam's Razor is ignored. It seems people do not look past their hypothesis very far otherwise they would see it spin off in so many different directions that it just becomes a very unlikely hypothesis. With the Pentagon why would they risk a missile when they already were able to use 3 planes, why not a 4th plane instead of a highly risky missile attack? How about the local people around there that actually saw a plane? Did they crash the exact airline first at high speeds some where else and then truck the few parts that didn't discinigrate to the missle crash site to plant them with no one seeing? I think not....

My argument in this piece was meant to underscore the endless rabbit hole of endless directions one could take in trying to ascertain anything specific about any specific little component of the attacks (each site, etc).

My whole argument is its the ultimate devastation of Occam's Razor, like in history. Where you paint this big complex picture (of endless possible alternative theories), where the easiest one is always the official version.

There's just too many wild directions that any scope of the research can go for most any part, where the craziest thing is a person of 'either' view could go pull in citations and 'prove' their point.

The odds of this being the case at every level across the board I argue is so incredible has to be deliberate. It's like the obscene complexities of JFK times 854+.

And there being just so many things that don't make sense.

And the things the immediate government suspects were saying dont add up.

And how they had the war response plans already on record as agenda's ("New Pearl Harbor", PNAC, etc).

And how all they've ever done to this day when explaining why we were attacked is because "they hate US for our freedoms" (which even the 911 Commission Report debunks). [They being the politicians, the media pundits, and the rest of their ilk.]

And the fact that the 9/11 Commission "Investigation" was ran as a cover-up operation. Have you ever read the entire 9/11 Commission Report? Mine and its official-data-sourced companion book are possibly the most heavily annotated specimens that exist.

And the way the various agencies withheld data that would have cleared things up (and puts things to rest), but they didn't.

My argument is that they WANTED everyone all mixed up on this stuff whenever each individual might have gotten around to doing a bit of their own research.

And never mind the clear cut COINTELPRO style campaign they ran to discredit the movement (No Planers and the crap related to all that).

And this is just what I impromtu'd real quick after not hardly discussing the issue in the slightest since around 2010.

originally posted by: samkent
a reply to: Xtrozero

A couple of thoughts here..

You keep bringing up the real facts about 911.
But what you fail to realize is conspiracy theories have no basis in fact.
They are by nature a hypothesis supported by conjecture.

If any of the conspiracy hawkers were rushed to the ER and the attending doctor diagnosed them the way they diagnosed 911, they would run out of the hospital.

Actually, I do not think I quoted a single narrative of the official report, so i'm not sure what you are suggesting. My statement deals with those who want to look for a conspiracy and what I see as common paths that leads to an unrealistic result due to bias or confounding muddling the waters so to speak.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

My argument is that they WANTED everyone all mixed up on this stuff whenever each individual might have gotten around to doing a bit of their own research.

And never mind the clear cut COINTELPRO style campaign they ran to discredit the movement (No Planers and the crap related to all that).

And this is just what I impromtu'd real quick after not hardly discussing the issue in the slightest since around 2010.

I think differently, I see many agencies with their pants down and so they all started to scramble to protect themselves in the aftermath of the greatest attack on American soil since pearl harbor. I have some experience in all this and I kind of understand how this could go down like this without the need for the all knowing perfectly executing secret government, that does not exist BTW.

People in the Government are more concern about losing their cushy jobs than getting to the truth.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

The CIA have been perpetrating illegal operations all over the world since shortly after WW2 (like dozens of different incident eras in as many different nations from Central & South America to Africa to the Middle East that are now confirmed).

Even they could not have rigged three buildings and crashed 4 planes without tipping someone off.
Besides:
The HEAD of the CIA could not have an affair in secret.
You would think that he would have been able to fool around without it showing up in all the worlds media.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
(Confirmed) operation types include over-throwing democratically elected leaders, rigging elections, assassinations, economic warfare, training "disappear squads", radicalizing Islam, employing Al Qaeda / Osama Bin laden (as late as 2001 in the Balkins) and probably every other sort of black ops wickedness you could imagine.

See here to see how everything they said in the 90's about Osama being the enemy was a lie:
Complete 911 Timeline - Al-Qaeda in the Balkans
Al Qaeda and their KLA consort were employed right up into 2001.

Why?

Because manufactured terrorism -to keep the public afraid and supporting never ending wars of conquest- became the agenda since the Cold War ended:

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Your point makes sense, but The Politics of Fear is actual across the board policy. It 'always' has been since the Cold War era (at least).

MUST SEE COLD WAR ERA DOOM-MONGERING:

CLEAN UP YOUR HOUSE OR BE NUKED TO DEATH!!!!

After the Cold War "they" needed new material to focus on so then they started really going overboard with stuff like Saddam Hussein ("Hitler Revisted" -GHWB), terrorism, violence, shootings and as Michael Crichton underscored (in State of Fear)... Global Warming.

And that was Clinton there in the 90's. Also at the end of the 90's PNAC drafted their manifesto of imperialist daydreaming calling for a "New Pearl Harbor" to mobilize the US public into supporting massive wars of conquest, which the day after 9/11 Bush called it just that, and then their pre-drafted manifesto of imperialism went bore bore full auto fire mode.

Here I am pulling in how many actual exhibits now, and so far all you've done is present and re-present tired conjecture about how hard or unlikely any actual wrong doing would have been in your opinion.

Stick to the threads dealing with Loose Change 2nd Edition materials is my advise for you, unless you can actual deal with my first response about the CIA and their decades of underhanded anti-democratic methods (which makes a big fat joke of everything we all claim to believe in and stand for in this "American" "democratic republic") going without just as many whistleblowers.

a reply to: samkent

You dont think that a handful guys over a period of a few months couldn't place enough thermite into key spots... just enough to ensure that with the planes crashing the towers were guaranteed to come crashing down?

If the towers didnt come down it wouldn't have had the same effect on the world.

"The CIA" didn't even have to do that specific task, or crash the planes themselves.

The planes with real terrorists on them (terrorists that only existed because of the CIA, and their organization was still actively employed up into 2000/2001). The terrorists hijackers just being pawns; their motives as genuine as would be expected.

The HEAD of the CIA could not have an affair in secret.

But the CIA as an organization for decades has gotten away with sort of 'everything', where the biggest stuff we only found out decades later because "they" decided they would declassify some old documents.

Here's a quick sample of what I'm talking about:

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
America's death toll on the world: 27,000,000++
Indonesia: 500,000+
educationforum.ipbhost.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
US backed Indonesia against defenseless East Timor: over 600,000, 1/3 of the population
www.gwu.edu...
US coerced Indonesia to annex West Papau in 1969:
www.gwu.edu...
The Indoensian genocides continue to this day:
news.bbc.co.uk...

Nicaragua: 50,000
El Salvador: 50,000-75,000
Guatemala: 200,000
www.serendipity.li...
www2.truman.edu...
www.gwu.edu...
www.gwu.edu...
www.gwu.edu...
Argentina's Dirty War: 30,000
www.gwu.edu...
Operation CONDOR (Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, Paraguay & Uruaguay): 80,000+ Dead/Disappeared
en.wikipedia.org...

US trained assaulting forces in the 2nd Congo War: 3,800,000
www.worldpolicy.org...

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

You dont think that a handful guys over a period of a few months couldn't place enough thermite into key spots... just enough to ensure that with the planes crashing the towers were guaranteed to come crashing down?

CIA planning stage question:
But sir what if those patsies miss the WTC's and hit some other building ?
We just can't press the button!

If the towers didnt come down it wouldn't have had the same effect on the world.

Yes it would have.
The loss at the Pentagon was an empty wedge, not the entire building.
But we still would have gone in to kick A$$.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
I have some experience in all this and I kind of understand how this could go down like this without the need for the all knowing perfectly executing secret government, that does not exist BTW.

To declare that with absolute certainty (as if you could REALLY know), is a declaration that you have on blinders that prevent you from having any hope of accepting whatever the truth might be in such a 'where ever the truth takes us' kind of investigation.

Going by that, if you were one of the people in the power structure that might have a chance to dig deeper and maybe do something about it, you wouldn't be willing to, or cognitively capable of doing so, if not for this reason alone.

Here's some food for thought:

A big lie is a propaganda technique. The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, about the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously." en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: samkent

If they were well trained enough to land, they were well trained enough to hit those targets.

If you think that the world would have been just as "catalyzed" (using PNAC's word) against terrorism, that US citizens would would have been just as devastated, by envisioning over and over the god speed carnage of those towers coming down, the people inside them during it, the firefighters being slaughtered, the devastation on the ground, the massive crater that persisted (for how many years was it?), and so on... If you're absolutely sure of that, then there's no point in even trying to maintain an intellectual discourse about all of this.

The Pentagon played out as an after thought, while it getting hit ensured it would be taken as an act of war. Too convenient.

Here goes me back in the day explaining the jist of what this thread was supposed to be about:

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
The answer is simple: They intentionally did things of the sort that you mentioned to allow for these sorts of conspiracy theories to run rampant and divert everyone as a whole from reaching and getting active on what I call "Actionable Consensus" issues. In the aftermath, everybody ends up too diverted chasing pipe-dreams and disinfo theories to settle on the core issues which aren't 'over-the-top' and that everybody would have to agree warrant immediate new investigations... as long as there aren't kookfest theories which are more widely parroted and debunked. The idea is to get the most controversial and debatable issues possible on the 'front page' of 'whatever' so that everybody can go back to bed while all those crazies bicker over things like physics and so on. And it would seem phase 2 of the 9/11 operation, which I just described, is going much smoother than the attacks did. If you'd like to challenge my thesis be my guest:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I happened to notice reading one of my old No Planer debunker threads.

originally posted by: samkent
CIA planning stage question:
But sir what if those patsies miss the WTC's and hit some other building ?
We just can't press the button!

Who said much of any of such an array had to be wired, had to be fired?

Thermite is ignited with burning/molten metal. Simple rudimentary thermite 'charges' would only have to go into ('slapped' onto) the core structure at each floor (in a sort of pattern) where the planes would be expected to hit. Once the impact destruction expectingly sets off the needed chain reaction 'all' of the 'charges' would go off 'naturally'. And thus ensure the months of hot flowing molten metal that DID happen in the wake of the collapses.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
To declare that with absolute certainty (as if you could REALLY know), is a declaration that you have on blinders that prevent you from having any hope of accepting whatever the truth might be in such a 'where ever the truth takes us' kind of investigation.

Thank about it. We have this visual Government that screws up all the time or is average at best. I can name many cases where they tactically messed up bad, but on the other hand you think there is hidden Government entity that is perfect in all they do. Which is reality?

Going by that, if you were one of the people in the power structure that might have a chance to dig deeper and maybe do something about it, you wouldn't be willing to, or cognitively capable of doing so, if not for this reason alone.

I would if there was something to dig...

Here's my food for thought:

My quote, use at will... hehe

With 100s of conspiracies about 911 only 1 can actually be correct AT BEST, you pick...

a reply to: Xtrozero

How about you look at the entire big picture of everything this BIG LIE we've been spoon fed our entire lives?

Try this:

And this:


"Both" parties are just 2 hands on the same shadow. No matter who is in, all that keeps going on.

The "free" Media, whom electioneer every election (that's PSYOP for the laymen), are at the core of all of our problems. How many Big Media pundits have come forward so far to expose this gargantuan charade???

Everything we were raised beLIEving in about this nation is a LIE. I used to buy it, you still do, is all.
See here:
The FIRST Truth

"Freedom" = Imperialism: It's in the Language

The Media is Pro-Military-Imperialism Biased

America's death toll on the world: 27,000,000++

That is all a perfect jist for our Masters at work. You can micro-assess your perceptions of the power structure you work for / represent all you can, but as long as you still keep your BIG LIE goggles on you wont ever be able to see the BIG PICTURE.
.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Nope. Not how thermite works. It ignites, it burns, it goes out. It does not provide months of heat.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
And thus ensure the months of hot flowing molten metal that DID happen in the wake of the collapses.

Any valid source for that silly claim of "months of hot flowing molten metal"

a reply to: hellobruce

911research.wtc7.net...
NASA Thermal Images.

911blogger.com...
Testimonials.

I havent debated this stuff since around 2008 so cut me a little slack on my wording please.