Hugo Chavez Takes Over Venezuelan TV Station

Yes, but the Venezuelan TV station did not call for any violence.

There is a big difference between calling for violence, and supporting a peaceful protest.

It might be, I'm not saying no, but we can't be sure, there is alot of propaganda out there, alot of influence.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by Britguy
Muaddib, have you seen the film?
Those seem to be rather sweeping statements. How do you know whatever they say inb the film are all lies? Don't forget, they were there on the ground witnessing what was happening, not cherry picking quotes and editing video to distort in favour of a particular point of view.

Yes, I have seen it.

I have provided videos in Spanish, and asked those spanish speaking members who have been defenders of Chavez to watch them and see for themselves whether i said the truth or not, so noone can cherry pick what is being said and edit videos to spread an agenda.

How do i know what that video says is a lie? Because Chavez himself has been caught on video and audio as the person who called for violence against Venezuelans, he has called for harrasment and for Venezuelans to be fired for voting against him in referendums, etc, etc...

The original fim on BBC was in English. It quite clearly showed the skewed reporting of the national tv stations and media. It also clearly showed the Chavez supporters returning fire in the direction the shots came from.
Do you have actual documented evidence that it was the Chavez supporters who shot the protestors? I mean, actual footage of the killings, not scenes of people shooting and then cut to scenes of victims? The Irish team footage showed no Chavez supporters shooting at protestors. Why would they lie, they were an impartial group caught up in the events, not a biased paid pro Chavez film crew.
If the film you saw showed otherwise I think we must have watched different programmes.

Anyways...to try to get back on topic, here is another link to the recent protests in Venezuela.

The protests started apparently on the 19th of this month, and continued until at least two days ago.

Venezuelans protest opposition TV channel closure
Sat May 19, 2007 4:45PM EDT

CARACAS (Reuters) - Tens of thousands of protesters on Saturday denounced President Hugo Chavez's plans to close an opposition television channel, accusing their leader of maiming Venezuelan democracy as he forges a socialist state.

Link

Well, i was wrong, the protests continued until at least Sunday/yesterday.

Sunday, 27 May 2007, 01:38 GMT 02:38 UK

Venezuelans protest over TV issue
By James Ingham
BBC News, Caracas

Tens of thousands of people are protesting in Venezuela this weekend as a TV station critical of the government is taken off the air.

President Hugo Chavez has refused to renew a licence for Radio Caracas TV, saying the station actively tries to undermine his government.

news.bbc.co.uk...

So the protests have been going on for more than a week now.


[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Britguy
....................
Do you have actual documented evidence that it was the Chavez supporters who shot the protestors? I mean, actual footage of the killings, not scenes of people shooting and then cut to scenes of victims? The Irish team footage showed no Chavez supporters shooting at protestors. Why would they lie, they were an impartial group caught up in the events, not a biased paid pro Chavez film crew.

Yeah and oliver Stone and Moore have also claimed their films are "impartial"....

I have showed entire videos in which Chavistas wearing red caps were among the people shooting at the protesters several times already. Not everyone shooting had red caps, but among those shooting were a few who did have the red caps of the Chavistas.

Anyways, why didn't the government do proper investigations and followed on the accusations when photos and videos of those who were shooting were taken and at least some could be easily identified?

The following is from 2003, a year after the massacre had occurred in Venezuela.

AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL

Public Statement

AI Index: AMR 53/006/2003 (Public)
News Service No: 087
10 April 2003


Venezuela: A Year on -- Face up to the Facts of April 2002
A year on from the failed Coup d’Etat of 11 - 14 April 2002, when more than 50 people lost their lives and scores of others were wounded, Venezuela’s government and opposition have failed to face up to their part in the tragedy and ensure that those responsible are brought to justice, Amnesty International said today.

"It is time that both the government and opposition stop attempting to use the events of April 11 to serve their political agendas and instead create the climate in which the facts can be established, justice can be secured and the victims can receive reparations."

"The recent dismissal of murder charges against those accused of shooting from the Puente Llaguno, and the failure to charge Metropolitan Police implicated in the deaths and injuries suffered on 11 April, demonstrate the weakness of the official investigation. It also raises serious concerns about the capacity of the state to effectively prosecute all those responsible," the organization continued.

web.amnesty.org...

Not one of the people who were shooting at the protesters have seen prison yet, and there are no more investigations

The oposition does not have the power to prosecute those who were shooting, but the government of Venezuela does have that power, instead all charges were dropped and not one of the people who shot at the protesters has seen prison since that day.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

Anyways, there have been many a claim that "most of the people in Venezuela are poor, hence most of the population is in favour of Chavez", when that is not true.

This is information from a "pro-Chavez" website, and gives the percentage of people in Venezuela "below poverty line" in 1999.

Poverty (% of population below national poverty line)...... 26%
Urban population (% of total population) ............................... 86%

Link

Most Venezuelans live in urban areas, most are not "farmers", like some people have tried to claim.

Notice that in other "pro-Chavez websites, it is claimed the poverty line in 1999 was 48%-60%, and even some have claimed 80%+ of the population were poor, but this is not true.

This is the same as the claims that 1.2-1.5 million of people in Venezuela are no longer illiterate because of Chavez, when in fact the number of iliterate people in Venezuela for the past 70 years has been much lower than the claims made by the Chavista government.

Yet for some reason many have taken the claims of the Chavistas at face value. Yet the facts are these.

The Venezuelan government’s claim of illiteracy eradication is generally taken at face value by specialists as well as by casual observers. A recent article in the San Francisco Chronicle, for example, reports that “illiteracy, formerly at 10 percent of the population, has been completely eliminated.” UNESCO’s latest Education for All Global Monitoring Report reports that 1 million people learned to read and write in Venezuela between July and December 2003. The source cited for this information is a presentation made at the UNESCO meetings by the Cuban Communist Party’s organization Juventud Rebelde.
................
One puzzling fact about the government’s claim is that, according to official
statistics, the number of illiterate Venezuelans before the start of Misión Robinson was already well below 1.5 million persons. Table 1 presents the evolution of Venezuelan illiteracy as reported by the national censuses from 1936 to 2001. The pre-Robinson 2001 census reports only 1.08 million illiterate Venezuelans of age 15 and greater – the standard UNESCO threshold - in 2001. Indeed, according to the census data, Venezuela appears to never have had as many as 1.5 million illiterate adults during the past seventy years.

This inconsistency was recognized by Education Minister Aristóbulo Istúriz in the July 3 Aló Presidente program, where he claimed that the Census figure of 1.2 million illiterate individuals underestimated illiteracy rates and that estimates carried out by the Ministry of Education in 2003 had put the number of illiterates at the higher 1.5 million.7 These estimates referred to by the minister do not appear in any official publication and are therefore difficult to evaluate.8 If we take this figure to be correct, the government’s claim of having taught how to read and write to 1.4-1.5 million persons would imply a reduction of illiteracy to less than 0.1% of the country’s adult population.

frrodriguez.web.wesleyan.edu...

The Venezuelan government has claimed that more Venezuelans are illiterate free, and the only evidence presented was by the "Communist party of Cuba" and by Venezuelan political figures who have made such claims even when we know that Venezuela never had the amount of illiterate people the Venezuelan officials have claimed....

Again, Chavez and the Chavistas have learned very well from castro's regime how to rig statistics to show a favorable view towards the "revolution"....

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

Next time Fox is the puppet for foreign espionage that directly instigates a violent coup to overthrow the government, I would expect the whole network to be shut down as well.

Originally posted by Muaddib
BS, you are once again trying to change any and every topic into your typical "let's change the topic and bash the U.S. instead".

That is how you see it - but very well, I already know that.

Anyway, considering that you are now an American citizen, it would be more then appropriate, if you would also do a Wonderful research (as always!) regarding your current government instead of constantly trying to defend them. Are they such saints in your eyes - even if compared to puny leaders like Chavez and Castro, which have actually no world wide impact on global politics whatsoever? Just trying to tell you, to clean your own backyard, before you are pointing fingers at others, in order to make your yard, look More Clean, if-you-know-what-I-mean.

That is all I wanted to say.

This was not even illegal. The license expired, and the airwaves belong to the public. Now a private station has been replaced with a public one, with no corporate influence or interests at its core. The BBC is the biggest example of such a success.

The new, replacement radio station is a tool of the government. And you should question the reasons why the license was not renewed for RCTV in the first place. It was the most popular station in Venezuela. It's downfall was that it attempted to practice freedom of speech. To paint it any other way is to put one's head in the sand as to what is happening down there.

Originally posted by iori_komei
As for human nature, I have to disagree with you.
:
:
Socialism is not meant to be a wealth creating system, it is meant to be at first a wealth
redistribution system, but in the long term it's meant to be a system that eradicates the
concept of wealth all together.

That's against human nature.

If we were really so great on the freedom of the press thing(we are ranked 53rd)
than stations like Al Jazeera would be relatively easy to access.

Why? What about freedom of the press guarantees that?

Now, if Al Jazeera were prohibited, you might have a point, but they are not. From what I have read, it has been offered as a subscription but there have been very few takers.

Capitalism at work, you see.

Originally posted by jsobecky

If we were really so great on the freedom of the press thing(we are ranked 53rd)
than stations like Al Jazeera would be relatively easy to access.

Why? What about freedom of the press guarantees that?

Now, if Al Jazeera were prohibited, you might have a point, but they are not. From what I have read, it has been offered as a subscription but there have been very few takers.

Al Jazeera does have a Washington Studio, we get Al Jazeera English in the UK. You can get it in the States.

Regarding Socialism, the definition is;

its when the means of production, resources, property and distribution of goods is owned and controlled by the people. the idea is that there is no private ownership and we share things equally.

a very beautiful ideology, ashame that certain "socialist states" have made it dirty.

It looks like the protests in Venezuela against Chavez are getting bigger and bigger.

FOX has a reporter there...it looks pretty amazing. I think Chavez made a big mistake here.

[edit on 5/28/2007 by djohnsto77]

Originally posted by djohnsto77
It looks like the protests in Venezuela against Chavez are getting bigger and bigger.

FOX has a guy there, it's pretty amazing. I think Chavez made a big mistake here.

Yeah, i've seen the protest...

its getting bigger by the day. i do fear he will send the army on to the streets.

Want to know how How United States Intervention Against Venezuela Works?

Summary, CIA Electoral Interventions, and Nicaragua as a Model for Venezuela

It is no secret that the government of the United States is carrying out a program of operations in favor of the Venezuelan political opposition to remove President Hugo Chávez Frías and the coalition of parties that supports him from power. The budget for this program, initiated by the administration of Bill Clinton and intensified under George W. Bush, has risen from some $2 million in 2001 to $9 million in 2005, and it disguises itself as activities to “promote democracy,” “resolve conflicts,” and “strengthen civic life.” It consists of providing money, training, counsel and direction to an extensive network of political parties, NGO’s, MASS MEDIA, unions, and businessmen, all determined to end the bolivarian revolutionary process. The program has clear short, medium, and long-term goals, and adapts easily to changes in the fluid Venezuelan political process.

So - anybody thought about, that this TV station has something to do with this U.S. government program to oppose and remove president Chavez from the power and install somebody, who is more Pro-USA, Pro-Business and PRO-Capitalist? Well it would not be the first time that this would happen in Venezuela or in South America for that matter.

Of course, SOME shall say I am only spitting out Anti-USA BS and only diverting the attention of this topic to some Bush-Bashing. But before you do that, may I suggest you read some more about CIA interventions in South America - Thank You:

The Nature of CIA Intervention in Venezuela

Philip Agee is a former CIA operative who left the agency in 1967 after becoming disillusioned by the CIA’s support for the status quo in the region. Says Agee, “I began to realize that what I and my colleagues had been doing in Latin America in the CIA was no more than a continuation of nearly five-hundred years of this, exploitation and genocide and so forth. And I began to think about what, until then would have been unthinkable, which was to write a book on how it all works.” The book, Inside the Company: CIA Diary, was an instant best-seller and was eventually published in over thirty languages. In 1978, three years after the publication of CIA Diary, Agee and a group of like-minded journalists began publishing the Covert Operations Information Bulletin (now Covert Action Quarterly), as part of a strategy of “guerilla journalism” aimed at destabilizing the CIA and exposing their operations.

And then decided who is the LESSER of Two Evils...

The CIA has been grossly interfering with South/Latin America for decades. Does anyone really expect that they have suddenly stopped their interference, without any reason to?

If you Google, "RCTV + CIA" you will get alot of hits, explaining how the CIA is messing with Venezuela and trying to topple Chavez.

Here is only one excerpt:

"Negroponte further remarked that US policymakers should be “worried about Mr. Chávez,” considering that “he has literally spent millions and millions of dollars to support his extremist ideas in various parts of the world…despite the fact that there is an enormous amount of poverty in his own country.”

Negroponte did not comment on how many millions upon millions of U.S. taxpayer dollars were being used to undermine Venezuela’s re-elected President, who won the most recent presidential elections in December 2006 with a landslide 63% of the vote and record low voter abstention rates (around 25%). "

venezuelasolidarity.org.uk...

If I were head of a nation that the CIA was trying to topple, and foment dissension in my country, I would have shut down the CIA-influenced TV station, if only to discourage the propaganda issuing forth from the TV station.

I have to agree with Forestlady. People are not stupid and they are going to protect themselves. Maybe if we minded our own business, things like this wouldn't occur.


Is Bush any better trying to cease funding for PBS which would basically shut it down, just because they aren't sending out the right message?

Sorry but if we have to interfere in a country's politics through covert intervention just because they don't appeal to us, thats not democracy in action. Its forcing our will on people through trickery. Castro has probably been tutoring him on what to watch out for. He's probably had more experience with attempted assasinations and covert operations then any other living politician governing a country.

venezuelamatters.blogspot.com...

Here's an URL with a 25 min. video depicting the other side. In 63 days of the oil strike, more than 17,000 propaganda messages were sent out by RCTV.

There is a law in VEnezula, guaranteeing free speech by the media, as long as they don't use propaganda or censor any news. RCTV is clearly in violation of this law.
All of the other stations are privately owned corporations.

Originally posted by Souljah
Anyway, considering that you are now an American citizen, it would be more then appropriate, if you would also do a Wonderful research (as always!) regarding your current government instead of constantly trying to defend them. Are they such saints in your eyes - even if compared to puny leaders like Chavez and Castro, which have actually no world wide impact on global politics whatsoever? Just trying to tell you, to clean your own backyard, before you are pointing fingers at others, in order to make your yard, look More Clean, if-you-know-what-I-mean.

I have not always agreed with everything the administration has done, but again....you are trying to derail the topic...

BRT, all i ask is that if you are going to incite violent revolts, after all you are a "revolutionary", at least have the balls to stay on topic and instead of blaming everything on the U.S. like you always do "stay on topic and blame those where blame is due"...

...That's all I wanted to say....

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by forestlady
venezuelamatters.blogspot.com...

Here's an URL with a 25 min. video depicting the other side. In 63 days of the oil strike, more than 17,000 propaganda messages were sent out by RCTV.

There is a law in Venezula, guaranteeing free speech by the media, as long as they don't use propaganda or censor any news. RCTV is clearly in violation of this law.
All of the other stations are privately owned corporations.

Yeah...there is "free speech" as long as the media do not criticize Chavez and other Chavistas....

Great "free speech".... i already gave the links for a human rights organization as to the "Venezuelan free speech"...

One more thing, I wonder why some people don;t say a thing when shown that the claims that the "poverty percentage and the amount of Venezuelans who are illeterate free after Chavez has not changed much despite what the "Cuban Communist party of "Juventud Rebelde" (Rebellious Youth) tried to claim to the world...

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Souljah
...................
Of course, SOME shall say I am only spitting out Anti-USA BS and only diverting the attention of this topic to some Bush-Bashing. But before you do that, may I suggest you read some more about CIA interventions in South America - Thank You:

How about you "concentrate on staying on topic" and post about Chavez's involvement in "spreading the "Global Permanent Revolution" through "violence and has called for the violent overthrow of every Capitalist system in the world...including and foremost the United States...

Why don't you talk about the claims of Chavez, among some other revolutionary/Communists like yourself, who claim "the world will be destroyed because of Capitalism and hence Capitalism must be overthrowed"?... To Chavez it doesn't matter if the environmental laws in Venezuela have actually gotten worse since he has been in office... He uses anything and everything, like some members around here, to blame Capitalism and seeks the "overthrow of Capitaslim."

They explained in their congress resolution, "The Venezuelan Communist Party (PCV) decided in its 12th congress that we are in the midst of a revolutionary process of national liberation that has to succeed in conquering complete national independence and liberation, advance the conquest of social justice and equality and deepen the popular revolutionary democracy with a participative and protagonist content to the transformation and liquidation of the old oligarchic bourgeois state that, to be able to achieve the historical tasks which exist in society, necessarily has to overcome the unjust mode of capitalist production of exploitation of man by man, the principal cause of all inequality and threats that affect human kind".

In the real world of food, housing, wages, employment and other conditions which determine the standard of living of the working class and poor "the protagonist and participative content of the transformation and liquidation of the old oligarchic bourgeois state" does not instil the reader with much confidence or clarity about how these tasks will be fulfilled. Even less clear is which class in society will play the leading role in overthrowing capitalism.

socialistworld.net...

But Communists/Revoluitionaries like souljah always claim "it is only Capitalism that wants to overthrow poor people like Chavez, yet he says nothing about the ultimate goals of the "Revolutionary/Communists" on overthrowing Capitalism in every nation through a violent revolution...

I have given in the past links to "Revolutionary websites" of Venezuela where Chavez's speeches can be read and shown that he has called for the violent overthrow of Capitalism, and the first country to go according to Chavez must be the U.S....

But i guess according to our resident "Revolutionary/Communist souljah", as long as it is the "Revolutionaries/Communists" doing the overthrowing it is alright...but if any Venezuelan group in "Venezuela" decides in large numbers to stand behind Capitalism and instead to accept funds from the U.S. or other Capitalist countries, because Chavez will not give them money for this, and decide to make "peaceful" demonstrations against the "Revolutionary/Communist Chavez" and other such systems, it is the end of the world, the U.S. is evil for giving money to Venezuelans and other "working people" who don't want to be ruled by Communism/Revolutionaries"....

The so called "new Revolutionaries/Communists" haven't changed one bit from the old ones....

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]