Roswell Smoking Gun? - Ramey Message

Originally posted by SuicideVirus

Those aren't the only two possibilities, though. I still lean toward the idea that there was some kind of cover-up that exists to this day, but it had to do with a secret project associated with the folks over at White Sands and not with an alien flying saucer. I think the whole "disc" magilla was a result of somebody's too enthusiastic preliminary report. The whole country was in kind of an uproar over these flying saucer things, and somebody got a little carried away when they came up on the crash site.

IMO, you can't really rationalize the Roswell events away in that manner. You have to evaluate the Roswell events in the larger context of History in which Roswell took place.

The U.S. Military had possibly been aware of the UFO problem as early as Feb. 26, 1942 after the L.A. Air Raids. The Military had certainly questioned Germans and Japanese about unidentified objects that were populary termed "Foo Fighters" after the end of WWII. Jimmy Doolittle was sent on a Secret mission to Europe in 1946 to gather information about unidentified objects that were popularly termed "Ghost rockets" in the Press at the time. By late 1946 and January of 1947 U.S. Military was aware that the British were tracking unidentified objects out in the English Channel that would evade interception attempts and make repeated incursions into British Air Space. By the summer of 1947 it was undeniable that the European unidentified object phenomena had migrated to the U.S. in full force.

The term 'disc' was being used in reference to the phenomena in military documents even before, and for some time after, Kenneth Arnold's sighting brought the phenomena public attention and the term 'Flying Saucers' had been coined! That of course brings us back to the context of the Ramey Memo. Where the appearence of 'DISC' is a clear reference to the UFO Phenomena.

Ramey was certainly aware of the 'Disc' phenomena prior to the Roswell events as he had been quoted in the Papers just three day's after Arnold's sighting had been widely reported June 30, 1947, saying, and I'm paraphrasing, that the phenomena was likely "Heat Waves"! In the same interview his Intelligence Officer Col. Kalberer said, "It doesn't stand to reason, though, that any unannounced enemy of the United States, anywhere in the world, would be sending such experimental craft over this country on trial flights," he said. "That would be tipping us off too easily." Col. Kalberer added, "we're not being invaded by little platter-like planes from Mars."

So in that context it seems highly unlikely that a secret Test or experiment of any kind would be covered up one week later by involving it with the ongoing UFO Phenomena.




[edit on 5-6-2007 by lost_shaman]

45-46 OSO ? agents are hunting Horten Brothers and staff for information regarding "foo fighters" field agents take report from Horten project worker detailing foo fighter device as radio controlled unarmed atomic powered aireal device. With limited flight duration and range with a propensity for the craft to consume itself due to the unshielded atomic energy engine powering the craft. Subject expresses concern some additional more advanced projects capable of incredible speeds and near autonomous operation had been developed but attempts to build reliable control systems had been unsuccesful. 1 case test vehicle escaped control and unknown whereabouts, fuel life estimated more then 100 years as atomic power cell containment had been perfected at the time of loss of control/contact with craft.

1 of the brothers is confirmed working for the Russians having relocated shortly after the fall to the east Russian controlled zone, further moving to an interior R&D site whose location and further attempts to track subject have failed.


The other brother remains elusive as of late 46.

The above is important because it ties the reasoning by von braun would have been asked to see the Roswell recovery items. Suspected to be of German engineering but of unknown origin.

the ghost ship sightings in europe are quite possibly the escape(d) german advanced test craft operating under some type of autonomous radio/optical signal AI logic. Which more then likely crashed into the sea at some point having encountered an electrical failure of some kind (1945 tech not a lot of solid state electronics combined with an atomic generator of some sort and war era wiring something was bound to fail a lot sooner then the atomic power plant)

bottom line it is very possible the germans reverse engineered some technology from a crash in the mid to late 30's. Some of which could be responsible for terrestrial ufos of the classic description. This reasoning could present a small possability that in fact another extraterrestrial device similar in construction to something reversed engineered by the germans had crashed at Roswell....

While I always wanted to believe alien bodies had been recovered the truth is that I am not sure we will ever find evidence that is the case. For certain though a craft of "peculiar origin" was recovered near Roswell in 1947.

Originally posted by robertfenix
45-46 OSO ? agents are hunting Horten Brothers and staff for information regarding "foo fighters" field agents take report from Horten project worker detailing foo fighter device as radio controlled unarmed atomic powered aireal device.

"Foo Fighters" were/are UAP, people still see them today and they still follow air craft but people refere to them often as simply Balls of light or UFOs.

As for Germany, Germany didn't even have a working reactor and certainly didn't have nuclear powered aircraft of any kind.

Shaman> I believe the ghost rockets that spread terror across Sweden in -46-47 were prototype intercontinental Russian (or otherwise) test missiles. There's quite a bit of information on them, and the head of the Swedish UFO organisation doesn't think there's anything 'unidentified' about them.

Originally posted by Drexon
Shaman> I believe the ghost rockets that spread terror across Sweden in -46-47 were prototype intercontinental Russian (or otherwise) test missiles. There's quite a bit of information on them, and the head of the Swedish UFO organisation doesn't think there's anything 'unidentified' about them.

Many of the "Ghost Rockets" that were reported in the papers are consistent with UAP. Silent, fast moving, low flying, wingless, making turns, accompanied by Balls of light on some occassions, etc.

Here is one example.


28 May 46 - Morgon-Tidningen: "It is not only in Landskrona and Gavle that fireballs and lighted [?word missing] without wings are seen. Also from Karlskrona and Halsingborg are similar observations reported, and many persons in the Stockholm area stated to the MT that they saw the same phenomenon in Huddings and Hagalund. No one really knows what is going on. One guess is of experiments with secret weapons, but aviation experts think that in such a case it is curious that no sound is reported in connection with the observations - long range bombing practice gives off noise."

www.project1947.com...


Also Europe had seen activity sporadically for years even before WWII.

Originally posted by lost_shaman

As for Germany, Germany didn't even have a working reactor and certainly didn't have nuclear powered aircraft of any kind.

I am afraid you are very much misguided in this statement. 100% the Germans had a heavy water reactor and a working Fission bomb model.

Allied troops recovered the bomb model probably only months before it would have completed stages to become weaponized. The very same Germans were "PAPERCLIP" personal that were brought to the US and worked on micronizing Manhattan Project.

one thing is certain.

As time passes the burden becomes heavier for the roswell alien believers and gets lighter for the skeptics.

no major evidence has been uncovered in 30 years since marcel told his story. All the potentialy good stuff has been proven a hoax ( autopsy video, major "witnesses" caught lying etc)


regarding the supposed alien bodies. There is not one single witness who claims to have seen them. The guy Kaufman was the main man for this info. He died in 2001 and 3 ufologists were allowed by his wife to view his personal papers. They found evidence of forged documents - fake letters etc. He had been feeding ufologists fake info for 10 years.

Without kaufmans alien testimony there is no witness to the alien bodies.


[edit on 6-6-2007 by yeti101]

Originally posted by lost_shaman
So in that context it seems highly unlikely that a secret Test or experiment of any kind would be covered up one week later by involving it with the ongoing UFO Phenomena.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about what I was suggesting. I was suggesting that the release of the press release regarding the "disc" was a big mistake, which was subsequently quashed by the quickest unclassified story they could cook up, which was the weather balloon story. The disc story wasn't something that they intended to use as a cover story for the crashed rocket, or whatever.

Only later, in the 1950s and 1960s, did the Air Force come to realize that they could use UFO sightings for their own benefit, by brushing off sightings of their own experimental craft as just more of that flying saucer nonsense.

Either way, unless you believe Philip Corso (and even he says his information was second-hand), there has never been one single witness come forward regarding Roswell who has said anything like, "Yes, I was a verifiable member of the investigation team, and we absolutely determined that we had recovered aliens from some other planet or time."

Nobody has ever said that. It's always, "I saw wreckage that could have been a flying saucer," or "I talked so somebody who saw little bodies that they said looked like aliens." Or something like that. It's all hearsay, and it all adds up to a whole lot of not much.

Originally posted by robertfenix

I am afraid you are very much misguided in this statement. 100% the Germans had a heavy water reactor and a working Fission bomb model.

Allied troops recovered the bomb model probably only months before it would have completed stages to become weaponized. The very same Germans were "PAPERCLIP" personal that were brought to the US and worked on micronizing Manhattan Project.

The Germans captured the Norsk Hydro Heavy water plant in Norway. The engineers at the plant were suspisious of the Germans and secreted the existing heavy water from the plant to the British before the Germans got there. After that Churhill understood the importance of the Norsk Hydro plant to Germany's nuclear ambitions and several attacks on the plant throughout the war by both Americans and British insured that Germany never had anywhere near the amount of heavy water that they needed for the enrichment of U-235.

Germany also found 100,000 lbs of Yellow Cake in a Belgium Warehouse. Which was good furtune for them because they had no access to Uranium elsewhere, but this was never enriched again because of the lack of heavy water from Norsk Hydro.

Heisenberg indeed had developed a very small and primitave mathmatical model for a fission bomb, but this inturn required nearly pure enriched U-235 which Germany didn't have.

In the Black Forest at the end of the War a reactor was found, but it was a poor design and had never been turned on as it would have irradiated all persons in the vicinity.

Germany's only option was to use the Uranium that they had as Dirty Bombs and this possibility was even used as German propaganda, but the Germans never did use any form of Dirty Bomb.

The German's may have been able to produce a Bomb if given enough money and resources during the War, but that didn't happen either as Hitler personally considered Nuclear Science to be "Jew Science".

no major evidence has been uncovered in 30 years since marcel told his story. All the potentialy good stuff has been proven a hoax ( autopsy video, major "witnesses" caught lying etc)

Actually, I am going with what the military first reported, and that is, the recovery of a downed flying disk, because its following explanations have all been proven false, and there were flying saucer reports in the area even before the Roswell story made it to the press.

Now, we are getting into the of technology the Roswell witnesses have been reporting for years as far as properties of the material are concerned.

roswellproof.homestead.com...

Originally posted by yeti101
i feel compelled to bring some balance to this.

WHEW! Wow man, thanks for the laugh... seriously.





edit sp

[edit on 7-6-2007 by Stale Cracker]

The disc story wasn't something that they intended to use as a cover story for the crashed rocket, or whatever.

It is highly unlikely the military would have concocted a “recovered disk” story to cover-up the crash remains of a rocket. Why would the military say anything in the first place had it truly been a downed rocket and bring the unwanted attention of the international community to that location with such a sensational press release?

RAAF Captures Flying Saucer
On Ranch in Roswell Region
No Details of Flying Disk Are Revealed

Roswell Hardware Man and Wife Report Disk Seen


Mr. and Mrs. Dan Wilmot apparently were the only persons in Roswell who saw what they thought was a flying disk…The announcement that the RAAF was in possession of one came only a few minutes after he decided to release the details of what he had seen.

www.roswellfiles.com...

Only later, in the 1950s and 1960s, did the Air Force come to realize that they could use UFO sightings for their own benefit, by brushing off sightings of their own experimental craft as just more of that flying saucer nonsense.

Secret aircraft flight test were carried out at Muroc AFB in California, not at Roswell AAF. In fact, just days after the Roswell incident hit the press, Muroc AFB, CA. had reported flying saucers overhead as well.

www.nuforc.org...

Originally posted by yeti101
one thing is certain As time passes the burden becomes heavier for the roswell alien believers and gets lighter for the skeptics.

On the contrary, as the years rolled on, much more information has been revealed in regards to the Roswell incident. The Air Force changed its story that a weather balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident and held onto that explanation for 47 years, but in 1994, the Air Force changed its story to that of a Project Mogul balloon flight that never was, so one must ask these questions;

* Why did the Air Force change its story from a weather balloon to that of a Project Mogul balloon flight that never took place?

* Why did the Air Force state that alien beings people saw in 1947, were accident victims and test dummies of the 1950s?

1997 Roswell Report

"Aliens" observed in the New Mexico desert were actually anthropomorphic test dummies that were carried aloft by U.S. Air Force high altitude balloons for scientific research.

The "unusual" military activities in the New Mexico desert were high altitude research balloon launch and recovery operations. Reports of military units that always seemed to arrive shortly after the crash of a flying saucer to retrieve the saucer and "crew," were actually accurate descriptions of Air Force personnel engaged in anthropomorphic dummy recovery operations.

Claims of "alien bodies" at the Roswell Army Air Field hospital were most likely a combination of two separate incidents:

) a 1956 KC-97 aircraft accident in which 11 Air Force members lost their lives; and,

) a 1959 manned balloon mishap in which two Air Force pilots were injured.

www.af.mil...

So, what we have here, are comfirmation from the military that there was in fact, "unusual military activity" in the desert and that people did see something along the lines of alien bodies, but common sense dictates that the bodies could not have been what the military claimed them to be so we are left with yet another question;

* The military acknowledges that people saw bodies but what were those bodies people saw in 1947 if they were not test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s?

We should take a closer look at General Ramey's message in regards to "Victims" and "disk."





[edit on 7-6-2007 by skyeagle409]

June 4th was the launch date of the mogul balloon.

There are no witnesses to testify about alien bodies. The military are giving other possible explanations as to what people saw IF the stories told by secondary "witnesses" are genuine.

why does marcel say the debris he was photographed with in rameys office was part of the debris recovered from the ranch?. Later Proven to be balloon material.

How come marcel couldnt remember the year the roswell incident took place? "sometime in the 40s" he told friedman. I mean its not evry day you find ET craft parts is it?

autopsy video fake, mj12 documents fake. Kaufmann testimony fake. Mysterious "nurse" who cant be traced, along with an untraceable archeologist. Its like those people never existed! Sorry you going to have to do better to convince me an alien spaceship was recovered.






[edit on 7-6-2007 by yeti101]

Originally posted by yeti101
June 4th was the launch date of the mogul balloon.

There were no Project Mogul balloon flight on June 4, 1947. That is why investigators were unable to find any flight records pertaining to a Mogul balloon flight on June 4 and the amazing thing about it all, is that the Air Force knew there were no Mogul balloon flights on June 4, 1947, yet the Air Force falsely implied that there was a Mogul balloon flight on that date.

That day was cloudy and there was a stipulation between the CAA, now known as the FAA, and the Mogul balloon teams, that no Mogul balloon flight would take place on cloudy conditions because of their hazards to aircraft but the Air Force never told the public that there was no such Mogul balloon flight on June 4, 1947. You can find flight records for other Mogul balloon flights, but none for June 4, 1947 and that was an important clue that no such flight occurred on that date.

The Air Force never told the publc that the Project Mogul balloon teams reported that the flying saucers over White Sands, New Mexico, were those of extraterrestrial beings.

www.nicap.org...

Project Mogul Flying Saucer Observations

"Robert B. McLaughlin, head of the Naval missile program at White Sands (who unequivocally stated that the flying saucers being spotted by White Sands personnel, including himself, were not only real but extraterrestrial in origin)."

roswellproof.homestead.com...

There are no witnesses to testify about alien bodies. The military are giving other possible explanations as to what people saw IF the stories told by secondary "witnesses" are genuine.

The commander of Wright-Patterson AFB, General Arthur Exon, USAF, specifically stated that alien bodies were indeed, brought to his base along with alien crash debris and it was General Exon who overflew the Roswell crash sites.

why does marcel say the debris he was photographed with in rameys office was part of the debris recovered from the ranch?. Later Proven to be balloon material.

Marcel never stated that the debris he posed with was what he recovered. That error was attributed to Bill Moore and another person, not Marcel himself. Marcel has stated on video that the debris he posed with was not what he recovered so there was no question as to what he was saying. Check it out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reporter Johnny Mann and Jesse Marcel

"According to Mann, Marcel said, "That's not the stuff I found on the ranch." In other words, the only ones to report that Marcel was photographed with the "real" debris was Moore and Shandera


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

autopsy video fake, mj12 documents fake. Kaufmann testimony fake. Mysterious "nurse" who cant be traced, along with an untraceable archeologist. Its like those people never existed! Sorry you going to have to do better to convince me an alien spaceship was recovered.

I have not been following the alien video and I don' t use Kaufmann as a reference, but I am have been interested in what other military personnel have said as far as where alien bodies and their spacecrafts were delievered, amongst them, the commanding officer of Wright-Patterson AFB.


[edit on 7-6-2007 by skyeagle409]

Originally posted by lost_shaman
The German's may have been able to produce a Bomb if given enough money and resources during the War, but that didn't happen either as Hitler personally considered Nuclear Science to be "Jew Science".

I know this is veering off topic, but there have been several posts alluding to this. Both German and American scientists knew a bomb could be built, but it would take two or three years to do so. The Americans thought this would be a long drawn out war, so they thought it was worthwhile going ahead. The Germans thought they would have to win the war quickly, or they would lose. They didn't have two or three years leisure time, so they did not develop the bomb in favor of using resources to win quickly. Their small reactor, which never did go online, was experimental. In fact, the Norwegians sunk a ferry boat, with lots of civilian casualties, to revent heavy water from reaching Germany. They just dug it up out of the wreckage here recently and verified that the heavy water was on the ship as per the manifest. Just FYI.

...couldn't resist.

Originally posted by schuyler

I know this is veering off topic, but there have been several posts alluding to this. Both German and American scientists knew a bomb could be built, but it would take two or three years to do so.

I'd beg to differ, scientists on both sides knew a Bomb was theoretically possible but the Farm Hall Tapes show that the German scientists were shocked to discover that a Bomb had been made and actually worked, wondering amongst themselves 'how' a Bomb actually worked!

Originally posted by schuyler
The Americans thought this would be a long drawn out war, so they thought it was worthwhile going ahead.

The Amercans went ahead with the Bomb because it was believed, wrongly, that Germany was well ahead of the Allies in doing so. This was a fear that the Allies had basically throughout the War.

Originally posted by schuyler
The Germans thought they would have to win the war quickly, or they would lose. They didn't have two or three years leisure time, so they did not develop the bomb in favor of using resources to win quickly.

That is true, but after the defeat of France Hitler and the Generals considered the War to be won and that Churchill was just stubborn and must eventually come to reason and make Peace with Germany as Hitler had outlined. That was the case up to 1942.

In mid-1942 Speer asked Heisenburg if he could build a Bomb in 9 months, Heisenburg said 'No'. That was the end of it, it wasn't like the Germans ever even really considered it and decided in favor of other projects, they just didn't consider it.

"According to Mann, Marcel said, "That's not the stuff I found on the ranch." In other words, the only ones to report that Marcel was photographed with the "real" debris was Moore and Shandera

incorrect, Marcel stated in his 1978 interview with stanton friedman & in the 1979 film "UFOs are real" that the debris was that recovered from the ranch.

""Actually, " said Marcel in The Roswell Incident (stantons 1st book), "this material may have looked like tinfoil and balsa wood, but the resemblance ended there." And, "They took one picture of me on the floor holding up some of the less-interesting metallic debris…The stuff in that one photo was pieces of the actual stuff we found. It was not a staged photo."

Your alien "witness" General Arthur Exon, never saw the alien bodies himself all his information about the roswell incident was 2nd hand.

Exon disclaimed direct knowledge. He said he never saw the actual Roswell crash material, but was told the result of testing by other personnel involved.

classic roswell witness, " somebody told me blah blah". Stanton Freidman decided to check on the Exon story, He spoke to exon and this is what he found.

...they (Randle/Schmitt) had attributed considerably more to him than he had said and that he had no firsthand involvement with Roswell. Most of what he told Randle and Schmitt was rumors and stories he had heard at Wright Field and in the pentagon. In a letter dated November 24, 1991, he told Kevin Randle,

" I did not know anything firsthand. Although I did believe you did quote me accurately, I do believe that in your writings you gave more credence and impression of personal and direct knowledge that my recordings would indicate on their own"

do you have anyone who claims to have seen the bodies themselves?


[edit on 8-6-2007 by yeti101]

Originally posted by yeti101

"incorrect, Marcel stated in his 1978 interview with stanton friedman & in the 1979 film "UFOs are real" that the debris was that recovered from the ranch.

Marcel wasn't referring to the debris in the famous photos. As Colonel Dubose noted, he was the other person who posed with the debris, the weather balloon debris was placed there for the purpose of a cover-up, which meant the debris in the photographs wasn't recovered from the Foster ranch. Then in 1994, the Air Force said that no weather balloon was involved, which underlines the fact that the weather balloon device in the photos was not responsible for the Roswell incident thus could not have been the debris that Marcel recovered, and we have the Air Force to thank in that regard meaning the Air Force shot itself in the foot on the issue when it dismissed the weather balloon as responsible for the Roswell incident.

Marcel had maintained until his death that the debris in the photos was not what he recovered and now, we have found a document confirming that the debris in the photos was placed there to concoct a cover-up and was not recovered by Jesse Marcel. He maintained until his death that the material he posed with was not what he recovered.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse Marcel Interview

H&M, FUFOR, 1979 television interview) "[There were] many bits of metallic foil, that looked like, but was not, aluminum, for no matter how often one crumpled it, it regained its original shape again. Besides that, they were indestructible, even with a sledgehammer."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marcel is describing material with properties of "memory metal" in 1979 that mankind is getting into today. In the first conversation with Stanton Friedman, Marcel told him that the debris field was 3/4 of a mile long, which effectively dismisses the debris in the photos as the material responsible in addition to the properties of the material that Marcel had described as well. And once again, a document has been uncovered, which I posted earlier, showing where the suggestion to use a weather balloon device to cover-up the incident came from. In other words, the material in the photos was not what Marcel had recovered.

""Actually, " said Marcel in The Roswell Incident (stantons 1st book), "this material may have looked like tinfoil and balsa wood, but the resemblance ended there." And, "They took one picture of me on the floor holding up some of the less-interesting metallic debris…The stuff in that one photo was pieces of the actual stuff we found. It was not a staged photo."

Let's hear what the other person has to say.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lt. Walter Haut's Affidavit

"I believe Col. Blanchard saw the material, because he sounded positive about what the material was. There is no chance that he would have mistaken it for a weather balloon. Neither is there any chance that Major Marcel would have been mistaken."

"In 1980, Jesse Marcel told me that the material photographed in Gen. Ramey's office was not the material he had recovered."

General Thomas Dubose Affidavit

(7) The material shown in the photographs taken in Maj. Gen. Ramey's office was a weather balloon. The weather balloon explanation for the material was a cover story to divert the attention of the press.

Signed: T. J. Dubose
Date: 9/16/91
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your alien "witness" General Arthur Exon, never saw the alien bodies himself all his information about the roswell incident was 2nd hand.

Exon disclaimed direct knowledge. He said he never saw the actual Roswell crash material, but was told the result of testing by other personnel involved.

General Arthur Exon was briefed by those who had examined the debris and according to General Exon, the general consensus was that the material he was briefed upon by the folks at Wright-Patterson AFB, was that the material was from an extraterrestrial vehicle. He was also the Air Force officer who overflew and confirmed two crash sites.

...they (Randle/Schmitt) had attributed considerably more to him than he had said and that he had no firsthand involvement with Roswell. Most of what he told Randle and Schmitt was rumors and stories he had heard at Wright Field and in the pentagon. In a letter dated November 24, 1991, he told Kevin Randle,

" I did not know anything firsthand. Although I did believe you did quote me accurately, I do believe that in your writings you gave more credence and impression of personal and direct knowledge that my recordings would indicate on their own"

Here is what General Exon had said in his interviews.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
General Arthur Exon

"from Truman on down" had known about the Roswell incident from the day it happened, and that it was known to be an alien spacecraft "almost as soon as we got on the scene."

RUCU)

"...They knew they had something new in their hands. The metal and material was unknown to anyone I talked to. Whatever they found, I never heard what the results were. A couple of guys thought it might be Russian, but the overall consensus was that the pieces were from space. ...Roswell was the recovery of a craft from space."

(R&S)

"[It was] probably part of the same accident, but [there were] two distinct sites. One assuming that the thing, as I understand it, as I remember flying the area later, that the damage to the vehicle seemed to be coming from the southeast to the northwest, but it could have been going in the opposite direction, but it doesn't seem likely. So the farther northwest pieces found on the ranch, those pieces were mostly metal. ...I remember auto tracks leading to the pivotal sites and obvious gouges in the terrain."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

do you have anyone who claims to have seen the bodies themselves?

Major Edwin Easley, indicated that alien bodies were found and he was the Provost Marshal.


[edit on 8-6-2007 by skyeagle409]