Roswell Smoking Gun? - Ramey Message

Originally posted by yeti101
i feel compelled to bring some balance to this.

the memo evidence is absolutely terrible. The quality of the text is EXTREMELY low and unclear. You could fill in any words you like into those sentences. Im not convinced in the slightest about it.

heres some things you might not know about the roswell incident.

1. On first seeing the debris on his ranch Mac Brazel ignored it. Amazing eh? an alien spaceship crashes and he carries on as if its nothing happened. Only when in roswell on normal business 2 days later does he mention the debris to the sheriff. The sheriff suggests he might have one of those "flying discs" as newspapers reported them in the Arnold sighting 1 month earlier.

2. Major Marcel who collected the debris from the ranch and started the whole roswell story in an interview with Stanton Freedman (late 1970s) said the debris in the ramey press conference photos was the debris retreived from the ranch . It has been proven the debris in the photos is balloon material.

Roswell people like stanton freidman then went looking for witenesses who would tell them a "debris switch" story. They also needed witnesses to tell them about a mysterious 2nd crash site becuase even they admit theres nowhere near enough material at the brazel ranch for a full craft.

3. De-classified memos from the 1947 show top military personel lamenting the fact they dont have any alien spaceships in their posession. One is from the commander of the base the "alien craft" was supposedly stored at.

4. All those images of the memo in the link have been manipulated in some way stretched/squashed pixels added here and there. Look at a blow up of the original photo. The text is beyond readable.


[edit on 31-5-2007 by yeti101]

Umm your completely wrong on number 2. Major Marcel in a taped interview stated that the wreckage he collected was NOT what he was photographed with. He went into great detail knowing that the switch was done to convince the press that the initial reaction of a crashed disc was a mistake.

And dont forget Marcel just so happened was quite familiar with balloons and would have never mis-identified one.

His son Dr. Marcel jr talks about the wreckage his Dad brought home that night and none of it looked like anything from this earth.

If your going to debate an issue at least be factually correct. Marcel never ever said that photo was a real shot of what he recovered

Umm your completely wrong on number 2.

Major Marcel in his interview with stanton friedman in 1978 & also in the 1979 film "ufos are real" confirmed the debris in the press conference photos was some of the debris they recovered from the crash site.

"Actually, " said Marcel in The Roswell Incident (stantons 1st book), "this material may have looked like tinfoil and balsa wood, but the resemblance ended there." And, "They took one picture of me on the floor holding up some of the less-interesting metallic debris…The stuff in that one photo was pieces of the actual stuff we found. It was not a staged photo."


[edit on 1-6-2007 by yeti101]

Originally posted by Sophismata

Originally posted by yeti101
i feel compelled to bring some balance to this.

Thank you thank you thank you. But expect to be dinged for daring to blaspheme about Roswell by suggesting it was what it was: a balloon. Blown all out of proportion.

How could the military confuse a weather balloon with a flying saucer?

Originally posted by Alien42

Originally posted by Sophismata

Originally posted by yeti101
i feel compelled to bring some balance to this.

Thank you thank you thank you. But expect to be dinged for daring to blaspheme about Roswell by suggesting it was what it was: a balloon. Blown all out of proportion.

How could the military confuse a weather balloon with a flying saucer?

You've obviously never been in the military. They could confuse water.

Originally posted by Alien42

Originally posted by Sophismata

Originally posted by yeti101
i feel compelled to bring some balance to this.

How could the military confuse a weather balloon with a flying saucer?

Thats what I've always had a problem with.
A few years removed from the war, the air base with the A-Bomb. Would not think a bunch of flakes involved.
Farmers in the region found, and recognized downed balloons on regular basis...but tricks the pros?
Recently gov. says bodies were high-altitude test dummies, but '47 was years b4 those tests even started....don't add up.
Something went down out there, UFO, test plane...after all these years, they still don't want to come clean.

How could the military confuse a weather balloon with a flying saucer?

in 1947 the military thought "flying disks" could be a russian spy device. It could be manned or unmanned they didnt know the size or the shape heres a declassified memo on the roswell debris sent to the FBI

" The disc is hexagonal in shape and suspended from a balloon 20 feet in diameter- the disc was recovered by a local rancher...."

As you can see the description of the debris doesnt sound like an alien spaceship at all. So when you read the news reports of the time and see "flying disk" its not meant in the way you think it is. You make the connection becuase you live in 2007 and flying disk means soemthing else to you.

NOTE: the military never ever said they had recovered an alien spaceship.

[edit on 2-6-2007 by yeti101]

I've always wondered about that memo.... In no way, shape, or form, does a RAWIN target resemble a "disc".... Seriously. This memo is likely disinfo...as remember, it wasn't FOIA'd until decades later of course.... There is almost ZERO chance of ever describing a hexagonal RAWIN target (as used in MOGUL) as a "disc".....

well its a tiny part of the proof it was a baloon and not an alien spaceship. You can dismiss it if you like but how do you dismiss marcels own words about the debris photo?

No balloon of any kind was responsible for the Roswell incident. One important fact to be noted is that Mogul balloons themselves were not classified at all. In fact, Mogul balloons were occasionally recovered by ordinary civilians and there were reward tags and questionaires attached to Project Mogul balloons for anyone who recovers them. Rancher Sid West was one of those who recovered a downed Mogul balloon train and it wasn't until the next day that two men were sent to recover the object. Another Mogul balloon train was vandalized because no one attempted to recover that object eventhough it sat right next to a roadway. Another Mogul balloon was recovered by a policeman in Flat Bush, New Jersey, yet there were no saucer stories for any of those recoveries.

Here is a list of other equipment carried aloft on Mogul balloon trains.

* Dribblers

* Parachutes

* Ballast tubes

* Radiosode

* Sono Buoy

* Equipment gauges

* 17.5 Mogul balloon payload.

* Braided lines

* 28 balloons of various sizes

None of the equipment listed above were ever recovered on the Foster ranch.

This is what a downed Mogul balloon train looks like. This object was recovered by civilians. There is no way anyone would have confused this contraption as a downed flying saucer.

roswellproof.homestead.com...

Those balloons were recovered by civilians, which is another thing the Air Force never told the public, and that is, that occasionally, Mogul balloons were recovered by ordinary civilians. Mogul balloons had these items attached.

* Reward tags for civilians recovering any Mogul balloons.

* Questionaires for civilians to add their imput as to the time, location and rate of decent of the Mogul balloons.

* Numerous***WARNING*** labels attached because of the hazardous materials within some of the equipment.

* Identification tags identifying the equipment as government property

* Serial numbers on the equipment

* Numerical dials on the equipment

* Lettering on the equipment in english

According to Mogul balloon records, the Mogul balloon flight the Air Force attributed to the Roswell incident, was cancelled due to clouds and never flown, which simply is the reason why investigators can find no flight records pertaining to Project Mogul balloon train #4.

What the Air Force never told the public is that the Mogul balloon scientist were reporting that they were tracking extraterrestrial flying saucers over New Mexico.

roswellproof.homestead.com...

So what it all boils down to is this, the Air Force duped the public into thinking that a Mogul balloon train #4 was responsible for the Roswell incident eventhough Mogul balloon records show that Mogul balloon train #4 was cancelled on June 3, and again, on June 4, 1947 due to clouds and never flown and once again, that is why investigators can find no flight records for Mogul balloon train #4.

Here is what General Arthur Exon had said in an interview.

["Everyone from the White House on down knew that what we had found was not of this world within 24 hours of our finding it." ]

General Arthur Exon

www.unknowncountry.com...

General Exon was also the Air Force officer who flew over the area after the crash and confirmed that there were two crash sites relating to the Roswell incident, not one. So that brings up this very important question: What crashed in 1947 that was so classified that the government feels compelled to continue on with its Roswell cover-up to this very day?

General Arthur Exon was a former USAF commander at Wright-Patterson AFB and he is on the record as stating that the Roswell incident involved extraterrestrial spacecraft and that his base had examined remains from extraterrestrial spacecraft.













[edit on 2-6-2007 by skyeagle409]

The word, "disk" is the most logical word to use in this case. Scientist at White Sands, New Mexico were detecting and tracking flying saucers and in one case, they documented how they observed flying saucers hovering 200 miles above the earth. Now, these are the Project Mogul balloons scientist who have documented their own observations and the head of the program in New Mexico has stated without qualitfications, that the flying saucers they were observing were extraterrestrial flying saucers.

This document is where the suggestion to use a weather balloon target (rawin device) as a means to cover up the saucers that were found, which corroborates the testrimony of Jesse Marcel and Thomas Dubose, two of the individuals who posed with the debris, that the material was placed there as a means of a cover and to get the press off of their backs.

So in other words, the material in the photos was not what was recovered nor responsible for the Roswell incident.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WAR V WU A50 NL PD

KALAMAZOO MICH JUL 8

WAR DEPT

INTELLIGENCE DIV WASHDC

SUGGEST SAUCERS ARE RADAR TARGET FOR WEATHER OBSERVATION

PURPOSES CONTACT COL M DUFFY SPRING LAKE NEW JERSEY FOR

INFORMATION

TONY GASTON NEWS EDITOR WKZO

WKZO.

Handwritten notes:

CA from
ID (Col Boyd) to AAF (Maj Mikly)
7-9-47
Celr
RLT

C/A received
from ACB and sent to Suin
Jif (?) 7/10/47

Originally posted by skyeagle409
The word, "disk" is the most logical word to use in this case.

The words 'Disc' or 'Disk' were both used in Military documents during the time period and were reference to the ongoing UFO phenomena, even months prior to Kenneth Arnold's sighting that brought public attention to the UFO Phenomena.

One nice thing about Photoshop 7 is the "Liquify" tool, which allows you to push displaced pixels back into shape with some relative degree of confidence. Here's a first attempt at trying to gather additional information by lining up the letters so we can at least see where there are words and spaces. It helps to immediately eliminate some words that just won't fit.



I freely admit my attempt at interpretation may be a bit off in some areas here. This is like deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls. Please feel free to point out any better possibilities.

But there's already another possible scenario that's arisen here.

It appears that there may have been some kind of secret work being done that had to do with using weather balloons tagged with radar reflectors as "decoys" for some unknown reason, possibly targeting for radar-guided artillery. It would certainly be a Top Secret project that needed to be kept that way, particularly if it may have involved these targets going astray and possibly endangering nearby residents. Maybe one did. Maybe even blew somebody up accidentally, like a small plane.

The original press release to cover up the snafu, that it was a "flying saucer," might have just been a bad joke backfiring. I don't know. Then when the hoopla began, they needed to come out with a better lie, which was to tell something like the truth. Yes, it was a radar-tagged balloon, but just a weather balloon, nothing to do with targeting or explosives or shooting anyone down accidentally.

Anyway, this is what I've come up with so far. See if you can do better.

One question, why would anyone put "risk" in quotation marks?

When the military stated that it recovered a flying disk, they weren't joking. In fact, just days after the Roswell incident in July, flying saucers were also seen over Muroc AFB, in California.

For some reason, I don't know which, something is holding me back from believing it is real. Maybe it's because the only unreadable words in the memo, are the KEY words. I believe something did happen in Roswell 1947, but I don't believe we'll ever get the real story.

-Jimmy-

Yes, it was a radar-tagged balloon, but just a weather balloon, nothing to do with targeting or explosives or shooting anyone down accidentally.

There were no Mogul balloon flights on the date the Air Force indicated, which means that no balloon of any type was responsible for the Roswell incident. The idea to use a weather balloon rawin device as a means of a cover-up never came from Roswell AAF, but from higher headquarters that was no where near New Mexico.

Originally posted by Dulcimer
One question, why would anyone put "risk" in quotation marks?

Maybe because they knew it wasn't just a "risk," but was a reality, since something had actually gone wrong. Or something.

I don't know. I'm still fiddling with this thing. Maybe some other portion of the message will be more illuminative, or suggest something else.

The point is that the more you expect to find things in the message, the more likely you are to interpret the smudgy letters the way you want, rather than what the actual image suggests. Which is why the language seems so awkward in the other interpretation. The victims or debris were "forwarded" to Fort Worth? Who would say that? Nobody. But that's the closest thing that will fit in the space and still make sense in that context. So it must be right. Right?

So much of the importance of the message rests on the interpretation of only a few words, particularly "VICTIMS," "WRECK," AND "DISC." I think "VIEWING," "DECOY," AND "RISK" fit pretty good, too. And I can come up with additional context to make those words fit.

So what do we have here? What does it mean? I suspect that the message has basically nothing to do with the whole flying saucer press event in the first place. It's probably just a message about a lost requisition of toilet paper, or something, and if you play with the image enough, you can probably get it to fit that scenario, too. Or maybe something else.

It's just hard to look at the image simply as it stands, without any preconceptions as to what it might say. And that's what this topic is supposedly about. The image of the message. Not whether the Army captured a flying disc.

I've always wondered about that memo.... In no way, shape, or form, does a RAWIN target resemble a "disc".... Seriously. This memo is likely disinfo...as remember, it wasn't FOIA'd until decades later of course.... There is almost ZERO chance of ever describing a hexagonal RAWIN target (as used in MOGUL) as a "disc".....

I think you have something there. In these photos, take note of what recovered weather balloon rawin devices really look like and note their conditions in comparison to that of the rawin device in the famous photos.

roswellproof.homestead.com...

To sum it up, the Air Force duped the public that a rawin device was responsible for the Roswell incident and it is not likely that military personnel of the world's only nuclear-capable bomber group would confuse ordinary metal foil and balsa wood as the remains of a flying saucer, material that any ordinary school child should have been able to recognize, but highly experienced military personnel couldn't?!

I think that there is something very important contained in General Ramey's and it had nothing to do with balloons.

THE COVERUP

"Concerning the cover-up, Exon pointed out that there were no secret balloon or weather devices that could account for the debris. The lab men and officers at Wright Field, because it was their job, would have known if the debris fit into those categories. The balloon explanation was ready-made. "Blanchard could have cared less about a weather balloon," said Exon.

General Arthur Exon, USAF, Former Commanding General, Wright-Patterson AFB



[edit on 3-6-2007 by skyeagle409]

search for "flying fish, ufo" July 1st -3rd, 1947 Corona New Mexico.

There is in fact a grainy photograph I believe from July 2, 1947 of a flying manta ray like ufo.



Which is similar in appearance to the actual crash site (2nd one near Corona).

If Roswell was nothing more then Mogul then why was the military tracking "unknowns" in the same area just 2-3 days before ?

There happened to be another famous crash 10 years prior... July 2, 1937


July 2, 1997 Micro-burst Lansing MI

July 2,2007 2 days before the Transformers movie opens and 60 years since the start of the Roswell incident.

EDIT: Note to Gazork I saw that show on History channel too May 29th I think. I had heard before about the purple acetate tape dye marking the balsa wood in the mogul targets.

And its true that alot of ballon test make up a lot of sightings around ABQ, NM. 12-15 shiny silvery ufo flying in a group etc.

My dad crashed a lot of stuff out there on the same range in 53. Even secret stuff and when it crashed they mobilized lots of staff to go hunt the stuff down when their "test" was not reported as coming down in the target zone.

Even recoveries on private property went by without a lot of fan fare. But Roswell was something different.

[edit on 3-6-2007 by robertfenix]