Scientology's response to BBC Panorama exclusive

Originally posted by manta


I think the whole thing is madness.

Madness?! This! Is! Scientologyy!!......*kick*

I couldn't resist.

As stated above, definately.. anything that needs to act this way in order to defend itself is just so full of crap.

I keep thinking, is there any definite proof that hubbard said he'll make a religion? And for the reasons stated?
If so, then this is all just so depressingly abysmally stupid.

I'm a bit amused by the amount of publicity the BBC/Scientology scrap has garnered. It's been shown several times on tv .. including the evening news ! I'm wondering if the entire storm in a teacup has been contrived in order to publicise the fact Scientologists have now disowned Xenu and are becoming a little more emotionally mature, less cartoon-like --- and looking to woo new converts ?

But then of course that couldn't be the answer --- not with the rabid, suited guy (Tommy?) featuring so neurotically in virtually every frame.

Guess the crazy Scientology 'spokesman' was the most fascinating element of the documentary, from my point of view.

He spoke like someone from a really bad midday soapie: " I'm angry now mister'. Long pause. Deep breath. ' REEEEEEEEELY angry ! "

He was trying to emit 'menace' I think, but he succeeded only in being hysterically funny. So funny that I half-expect Tommy-quotes to show up soon in everyday speech, similar to 'You feel lucky --- punk? ', and 'You speakin' to me? You speakin' to me?' So it may become, with people faux-glaring at check-out operators: ' I'm angry now. Reeeeeeely angry'

Yeah, the 'Tommy' guy or whatever the Scientology spokesman is called, was disturbing. REEEEEELY disturbing.

It was in horrified fascination that I watched him when the BBC guy (Sweeny?) was losing it. The Tommy character's mouth was working spasmodically. Scary. REEEEELY scary. At first, I thought he was chewing gum hyper-actively. Which seemed a strange sort of reaction for someone being screamed at. But when it was replayed several times during the evening, I realised Tommy's mouth was out of his control. He basically appeared insane and in need of urgent sedation. Either that or he was struggling to contain the outraged Thetans who live in his throat and were struggling to burst free and bite Sweeny.

Then the camera flashed to Tommy's mum -- some little-known actress looking worn-out, humorless, unhealthy.

Then on to Kirsty Alley ----- also looking worn-out, humorless, unhealthy.

Then that weird one -- Juliet Lewis (who's always seemed strange and creepy looking to me in any case) and she wasn't looking too filled with life and health either (her Thetans were showing).

The three Scientology graduates named above were asked about Xenu.

Now, if I were a successful, wealthy, sophisticated, mature-age individual called upon to portray my 'religion' in favourable light in a documentary about to be screened before half the Western world --- and if I were being asked about a facet of my 'religion' (Xenu) which was supposedly purely fictitious -- then how would I react? How would I respond? How would I put the issue/Xenu in perspective in a way that might attract others to my 'religion' ?

Well, I sure as hell wouldn't begin grimacing & eye-rolling insanely and at length, and giggling. Nor would I raise my eyebrows in obviously feined surprise, as if to say: " Xenu! Goodness me, where can THAT nonsense have come from ? "

But that's all Kirsty Alley, Juliet Lewis and the mother of the insane Tommy had to offer. Lots of face-pulling and mouth twisting (making them appear crazier than before, if possible).

But not too many VERBALISED refutations, denials, re: Xenu, I noticed.

They didn't compose their features, wear a reassuringly-sane smile and say anything like: " I can tell you now, on good authority, that Scientology has NEVER proposed anyone such as Xenu as playing any important role in Scientology.'

No. They didn't say that. Instead they eye-rolled and grimaced and gave a pretty convincing performance of three women auditioning for the roles of inmates in an asylum in a horror movie ! Millions of dollars spent on 'auditing' to become 'clear' --- yet the kindest thing you could say about them would be: ' Well, at least they didn't actually defecate on camera and smear it on their faces.'

Travolta's endorsement of Scientology was bizarre as well. Nothing about how Scientology could save youth from drugs and the gutter. Nothing about how Scientology promotes family values and world peace. Nope. Instead, Travolta provided vague and smiling assurances that if Marilyn Monroe had been member of Scientology ....... well, she'd be here today. Which must have made Monroe's killers sort of confused ---- or convulsed them with laughter.

So, to sum up, Scientology is either weirdly empowered to make men sound and behave like women in the throes of neurotic, psychotic meltdown ......... or it attracts men who are that way to begin with.

Actually, I think someone should sign up that 'Desperately Theatric' Tommy for a show all of his own .......... which is undoubtedly what he's been praying to Xenu for for years. Because Tommy is hysterically funny. He's a walking cliche. He's as nuts as hell --- but he insists on playing it straight. But he's entertaining, especially for those of us who've been taught not to laugh at the emotionally, intellectually challenged in society. Tommy's not a member of society --- he's a god in his own mind. So splitting one's sides laughing at his facial contortions and mangled delivery can't properly be termed 'politically incorrect' -- we can do it with clear conscience.

Prediction: Tommy's performance will be featured on 'bloopers' shows for years to come and Tommy may even gain a cult-following totally unrelated to the (gulp) cult of Scientology.

Opinion: Scientology, with its creepy dedication to focusing on already unbalanced egomaniacs via the one-on-one 'auditing' and other ego-feeding attentions --- strengthens diseases of the ego rather than diminishing them.

Not that Scientology cares: it's clearly all about da money.

But by their fruits (lol) shall ye know them. And Scientology's 'fruits' seem to be of a kind: stroppy, hysterical, dictatorial, strutting, power-mad, deluded little Napoleons, i.e., Tom Cruise and his argumentative, 'you will back-down before me NOW ! ' rants on the Matt-Somebody programme ... also 'Tommy' with his ' You listen to ME !' .... and Kirsty Alley who always looks completely mad and like a bad-tempered dominatrix to boot ... not to mention Juliet Lewis who, I realise now, is not being a good-actress when she plays a successions of psychotics (no, she's just playing herself, time after time). Yep. These people were obviously non too mentally healthy when Scientology got its hooks into them. And they're in worse shape now.

The Award for Worst Possible Choice of Spokesperson for Scientology would HAVE to go to Tommy the Suit, lol.

The fact Tommy was selected to speak on behalf of Scientology PROVES to me, beyond all shadow of doubt, that Scientology and its administrators and adherents are both stupid AND crazy.

Maybe that's was Scientology's aim?

But thanks to the BBC documentary, the world now knows that if you REEEEEELY want to get revenge on those you hate ......... all you need do is forward their name and phone number to the Church of Scientology. Then sit back, enjoy and feel great. Better than shooting your enemies with a gun.

Originally posted by Dock6
asked about a facet of my 'religion' (Xenu) which was supposedly purely fictitious -- then how would I react? How would I respond? How would I put the issue/Xenu in perspective in a way that might attract others to my 'religion' ?

Well, I sure as hell wouldn't begin grimacing & eye-rolling insanely and at length, and giggling. Nor would I raise my eyebrows in obviously feined surprise, as if to say: " Xenu! Goodness me, where can THAT nonsense have come from ? "

But that's all Kirsty Alley, Juliet Lewis and the mother of the insane Tommy had to offer. Lots of face-pulling and mouth twisting (making them appear crazier than before, if possible).

But not too many VERBALISED refutations, denials, re: Xenu, I noticed.

They didn't compose their features, wear a reassuringly-sane smile and say anything like: " I can tell you now, on good authority, that Scientology has NEVER proposed anyone such as Xenu as playing any important role in Scientology.'

No. They didn't say that. Instead they eye-rolled and grimaced and gave a pretty convincing performance of three women auditioning for the roles of inmates in an asylum in a horror movie !

What you forget is that unlike a real religion, like Chrstianity, Islam etc, If your below someone else in OT levels (which can only be gained if you pay for it) then they can't tell you about it, and as everyone with any sense is at OT 0 then you can't know about something. Well, that just goes to show how screwed up Scientology is. "Sorry, you can't have Salvation, you are too poor". Whereas all other religions just require a bit of reading in order to find anything out.

But thanks to the BBC documentary, the world now knows that if you REEEEEELY want to get revenge on those you hate ......... all you need do is forward their name and phone number to the Church of Scientology. Then sit back, enjoy and feel great. Better than shooting your enemies with a gun.

And all this time I've been forwarding their addresses to Al Qaeda? Thanks for telling me about this

Yes but i think no religion offers real "salvation". I don't see any people getting smart or returning to us with new wisdom. All they do is follow rules, some find happiness and compassion, some turn to worse and start violent conflicts in the name of (insert some imaginary deity here). Thanks a lot of salvation like that...

Keeping this point of view i don't see much wrong with Scientology. It is fake religion, as all others, it asks for money as all others, it brainwashes people, as all others. It started no wars, unlike all old religions. So it's even safer than others.

[edit on 18-5-2007 by 64738]

Originally posted by 64738
Yes but i think no religion offers real "salvation". I don't see any people getting smart or returning to us with new wisdom. All they do is follow rules, some find happiness and compassion, some turn to worse and start violent conflicts in the name of (insert some imaginary deity here). Thanks a lot of salvation like that..
Keeping this point of view i don't see much wrong with Scientology. It is fake religion, as all others, it asks for money as all others, it brainwashes people, as all others. It started no wars, unlike all old religions. So it's even safer than others.

Once again, other religions don't charge you for everything, they say you should be charitable, but none of them downright charge you for everything.

And while Scientology hasn't started a war, it hasn't got a clean slate. And I could say that it is peoples interpretation of religions that causes wars, not the religion itself.

[edit on 18-5-2007 by apex]

Originally posted by apex
"Sorry, you can't have Salvation, you are too poor". Whereas all other religions just require a bit of reading in order to find anything out.

That's interesting. I wonder if Scientology provides some courses in exchange for labour to those that cannot afford this "Salvation." It seems that they have an endless supply of people to do their bidding; although, endless might be an exaggeration as they have claimed to have over eight million members, never to increase or decrease, for quite some time. Maybe they are counting Tom Cruise 7,999,999 times.

I think it's more around 1 million or even less, i read 500.000 once, but it was years ago. Also they received a lot of negative press and some of the most secret texts were posted on internet, worth $200.000 USD, i think. You can google for them, they are still on Usenet and hosted on .nl site.

[edit on 18-5-2007 by 64738]

I am still one but not of the church. I still follow the teachings for I found much truth in them.

In the church I did see the OT stuff but I discounted it because of my brainwashing.

Now I know of the OT levels. Many discount that is what really happened and only use the data for auditing/Counseling sessons. It might be a different cause.

As I understand as I don't go looking at the stuff anyhow is we are effected by other spirits. I had a Christian friend that says she is attacked by spirits.

So it is not just Scientology that has such in their religion.

I can see where people will think it silly and nuts. In fact I did for a time.

But myself even though I can't prove it am sure I had communication from people who passed. One was my son's dad. He was ever so happy he died. I can understand why too. A horrible life had ended.

I have whiplash so I did not check this thread for a while. I just thought of coming back here. I have not been feeling well.

Anyhow the data is only used in upper level counseling. It is not a core belief. The core belief is people can be better through auditing/Counseling practices. That people can learn more about life and live it better.

The independents still call themselves Scientologists for we try to follow the original works of Mr. Hubbard.

I am aware of his lies. I am aware he was no God.

I am also aware he did drugs. I figured that out all by myself in the church. He gave a hint to that in the HCOB Keeping Scientology Working.

He did a lot of what he did for several reasons. I suppose some was just strait PR reasons. Some was because he was on the drugs that he used for his research. Some was because it was a temp thing to protect the church and the church kept it on and should have dumped it.

Now like in the film one of the guys said he was very angry. That was fake as hell. He was using the TR's which were very bad.

There are very few in the church that understand the teachings as they should be understood. How can they they been altering it for 20 some years. As well as the stuff is not always easy to grasp.

As well as the education level of people is getting lower all the time.

I am so surprised that even with me not doing well in school I know more than most adults on the street.

The church does do bad but most in it want good and are victims of a corrupt managment.

Originally posted by T0by
Thanks for your input Fancy Lady.
Do you have anything else to tell us? I'd really like to hear more and others would to.

Why do they all deny Xenu? Embaressment, or they really dont know?

I think teachings similar to, or better than scientology are around.
Why still call yourself a scientologist?

[edit on 18-5-2007 by FancyLady]

I know of it and peeked at the data and I am just fine. No different than before I peeked but I don't go out of my way to look at it.

I figure at the time I do look at it I will get a different viewpoint of it for now I don't worry about it.

It is not different than other religions in regards to evil spirits that they have.

I don't look at it as religion per say. The only way it can be one is it deals with spirits.

I don't like Dianetics being called Scripture. When I got in the church it was never called that and all the sudden it is called that and other sacred things.

Come on get real. I know why they did that. They never use to have Sunday services and all the sudden Sunday services and a prayer that the church never had before.

All it really is something that can help you be a better person. That is the core of the religion.

Originally posted by badw0lf

Originally posted by T0by
Thanks for your input Fancy Lady.
Do you have anything else to tell us? I'd really like to hear more and others would to.

Why do they all deny Xenu? Embaressment, or they really dont know?

I think teachings similar to, or better than scientology are around.
Why still call yourself a scientologist?

In regards to denying Xenu, I would suggest it is because a scientologist is not allowed to know about the story until they are a certain OT level. I think 3.

If they know about it before then, bad things happen to them.

So for an OT 8 or whatever to confirm the story would be a bad thing.

Thats just from what I remember reading years ago. I may be wrong, but wont expect a scientologist to verify it anytime soon. Ex-scientologists claimed this.

I think anyone falling for the writings of a sci-fi writer who made it clear he was going to get rich turning a science fiction story into a religion, is a very very sorry person. Wether or not there are good parts, Id lose the tag scientologist and just go with aware human being.

[edit on 18-5-2007 by FancyLady]

Dianetics is fine science and reminds me of NLP. I did some research on similar subjects and it actually surprised me Scientology teaches stuff so good. I work on my own too and i plan to make my own little cult, just for fun.

L. Ron Hubbard was a good man, we should respect his work. He did some weird things, but hey nobody is perfect.

It was more than the shunning.

Do you know how a Christian would feel if they were told that for sure they would go to hell and have very little hope for reprieve.

It was losing all that I loved as well as losing what I thought was my spiritual future.

I can tell you it does much damage to the mind. I wanted to die. One night I thought of it. I talked to my mom for a while and she said I scared her. (She is now gone from me to her next life.) I put myself into the shower and then went to bed. A dear friend who seems to know when I am very upset who lives far away called me in the middle of that night and I got though the time. It was when I decided I would fail for sure if I don't keep going forward. I may somehow win.

I did try go do their stupid program to get back in for a time but they made it very hard to do because of the bad PR of the church out in the real world.

Shortly after that I bought a computer and over a bit of time after I learned out to use the net I found the independents. I went though some hard time then. I found out about the altering of the teachings and I knew it was right.

But it was hard fighting for my truth. Reading the critics seeing Ron my have been murdered and by who. Reading the dead agents sites of the church. I was in bad shape and I fell down some bad rabbit holes.

It took me years to sort things our to where I just finished my last confusion has been solved.

I know who does what and where.

I still live with the damage of the church and I await the person I am going to work with but I am better now than I have ever been in the church due to the independents and me persisting.

I talk to a social worker now for a time.

Anyhow I have figured out what lies and altered tech I use to know and dumped and picked up the proper data.

I still lost the one's I loved and yes, I knew Ellie Perkins and I could have talked to CBS news with their story as they wanted me to but I declined for I don't do hit pieces.

The church is pumping independents for information. The local people still will take to me but will not for the most part go out of their way to talk to me unless OSA is trying to trick info out of me.

They tossed me and now they pay the price for doing so. I no longer give them any of my little amount of money that I have. I can now buy stuff and own my own car.

All I can tell you it almost killed me but I sorted a lot of that out as well of what caused it.

Originally posted by Valorian
[

Hi Fancy Lady
Thanks for coming forward and saying your piece for and against (which is important)
How does all the shunning make you feel with regards to paying for this to happen??

That is my own viewpoint.

I have talked to people who knew him.

I forgot to say he used himself as a guinea pig so he was messed up as well and he refused to be corrected himself.

So he was human and made mistakes but he did do some very good work.

Originally posted by 64738
Dianetics is fine science and reminds me of NLP. I did some research on similar subjects and it actually surprised me Scientology teaches stuff so good. I work on my own too and i plan to make my own little cult, just for fun.

L. Ron Hubbard was a good man, we should respect his work. He did some weird things, but hey nobody is perfect.

What I do know is Scientology does not have all the answers. No one really can have consistent Upper level abilities that I know of and they like to advertise in the church. Not that it does not exist because I did one when I was very happy myself and I did not know what I did.

One can call it imagination but one I could see that I created myself.

Anyhow the viewpoint is for a lot of independent more research is needed to be done.

No religion has all the answers.

Originally posted by 64738
Yes but i think no religion offers real "salvation". I don't see any people getting smart or returning to us with new wisdom. All they do is follow rules, some find happiness and compassion, some turn to worse and start violent conflicts in the name of (insert some imaginary deity here). Thanks a lot of salvation like that...

Keeping this point of view i don't see much wrong with Scientology. It is fake religion, as all others, it asks for money as all others, it brainwashes people, as all others. It started no wars, unlike all old religions. So it's even safer than others.

[edit on 18-5-2007 by 64738]

I agree with this too. It was one of my gripes in the church but I did get helped out by local people by their choice.

The main church sells their soul but the people in it can help.

The independents can be the same. Many say exchange should be in so one can go forward in life.

Others do it for free and ask you to pass it forward.

I am going to work with one who pass it forward. I find those people are usually nice to work with but not always so. Some need to buy food and a have a home to live in so need money to survive.

Sometimes you get what you pay for.

Originally posted by apex

Originally posted by 64738
Yes but i think no religion offers real "salvation". I don't see any people getting smart or returning to us with new wisdom. All they do is follow rules, some find happiness and compassion, some turn to worse and start violent conflicts in the name of (insert some imaginary deity here). Thanks a lot of salvation like that..
Keeping this point of view i don't see much wrong with Scientology. It is fake religion, as all others, it asks for money as all others, it brainwashes people, as all others. It started no wars, unlike all old religions. So it's even safer than others.

Once again, other religions don't charge you for everything, they say you should be charitable, but none of them downright charge you for everything.

And while Scientology hasn't started a war, it hasn't got a clean slate. And I could say that it is peoples interpretation of religions that causes wars, not the religion itself.

[edit on 18-5-2007 by apex]

Sometimes they do but not very often.

The main managment owns the buildings the local people bust their butts to work and put them together with their money and Management far away owns the buildings.

Sad once they wake up to they were taken for money and the work they did for free and management can sell the buildings under them.

Originally posted by Mephorium

Originally posted by apex
"Sorry, you can't have Salvation, you are too poor". Whereas all other religions just require a bit of reading in order to find anything out.

That's interesting. I wonder if Scientology provides some courses in exchange for labour to those that cannot afford this "Salvation." It seems that they have an endless supply of people to do their bidding; although, endless might be an exaggeration as they have claimed to have over eight million members, never to increase or decrease, for quite some time. Maybe they are counting Tom Cruise 7,999,999 times.

Originally posted by FancyLady
I am still one but not of the church. I still follow the teachings for I found much truth in them.

I have always believed in the premise of Scientology; to help man to help himself as Hubbard explained it, but whether or not Scientology actually does this I cannot say and have only seen evidence to prove contrariwise. They seem to be very protective of any information that require payment, raiding the homes of individuals who distribute information on the levels.

In my opinion, to help an individual help himself or herself means to help him or her understand his or her strengths and weaknesses, and to therefore take steps to strengthen the weaknesses while fortifying the strengths. (This is at best a vague and subjective description as I believe only the individual can determine how to help himself or herself through self-reflection.)

It seems, and correct me if I am wrong, that Scientology performs the exact opposite to convince persons that they have problems, either eminent or obscure, present or fabricated, and that Scientology has exotic or pseudoscientific solutions for a price. Neither have I gone to an auditing nor do I have the desire to attend one, so I seek some insight here as the base of my knowledge comes from undercover recordings.

Originally posted by FancyLadyThe independents still call themselves Scientologists for we try to follow the original works of Mr. Hubbard.

Do you combine the learning of these works with other religions, or practice it exclusively? There are many religions that have teachings that I agree with, and integrate these into my core belief.

Originally posted by FancyLadySome was because he was on the drugs that he used for his research.

I think many of us have and continue to search for answers in this manner, so I myself can relate to what Hubbard sought.

Originally posted by FancyLadySo he was human and made mistakes but he did do some very good work.

I'll agree that he was a prolific writer of fiction and according to Wikipedia:

In 2006, Guinness World Records declared Hubbard the world's most published and most translated author, having published 1,084 fiction and non-fiction works that have been translated into 71 languages.

But when I read quotes as:

We are slowly and carefully teaching the unholy a lesson. It is as follows: We are not a law enforcement agency. BUT we will become interested in the crimes of people who seek to stop us. If you oppose scientology we promptly look up - and find and expose - your crimes. If you leave us alone we will leave you alone. It's very simple. Even a fool can grasp that. And don't underrate our ability to carry it out.

and see these practices in action, I find it hard to think of him as a good man. Maybe he was good to those that believed in Scientology and evil to those that sought to criticize it. I am sure that if L. Ron Hubbard himself believed in Scientology and had nothing to hide, he had the capacity to find a better way to defend it than empowering the very people that seek to destroy it.

I had no idea the Church of Scientology owned the buildings. That is quite a few structures, some of them massive.

Thank you for coming forward with you story, FancyLady. I hope life as an independent Scientologist brings you the answers you seek.

Originally posted by 64738Dianetics is fine science and reminds me of NLP

Neuro-linguistic programming is an amazing science and I enjoyed Derren Brown's "Instant Conversion."

Part One
Part Two

I myself cannot believe that it is that easy to control people through neuro-linguistic programming, but it is an interesting watch nonetheless.

Wow Fancylady, that's alot of typing thankyou for all of that.
I hope it helps a few people to understand abit about what scientology is supposed to be and that it does have some good in it.

The bottom line is that its been hijacked beyond repair and recognition. I think in its current state it's quite a dangerous thing.

Well Scientology may not be the ideal religion but i see a lot of 'brainwashing' and asking for money in other religions like Christianity ans Islam too. And they never offer any real solutions for problems, just prayer and faith, while Scientology is modern religion with Dianetics and many other helpful methods.

Many times people intentionally point out just bad stuff in order to demonize Scientology. Maybe this all originates from church or even political circles because they see Scientology is successful in some areas where they are corrupted and unable to help.

So, my point is, if you take away all the exaggerated horror stories, you actually end up with something better than church or mosque can offer today. No wonder they attack it so much.

Mephorium I was going to quote you but I don't have enough room to do so. I hate posts that limit one comments.

I agree with you on the payment part. I am not saying there should not be some payment because of how life is on this planet people need money to survive.

One has to have auditing to know if it works or not. Some session done wrong can be bad and harmful. Some as it is being done now are being done to harm. The leader of the church is himself an SP. As they say the sin of the accuser speaks loudly or something like that. He accuses others what they are doing and that is in the tech. They want to keep a monoply so they get all the money. They forgot the goal was to have a peaceful humanity not fighting with each other. Some of the policies as I understand by reading independent posts was to handle an emergency situation and then it was supposed to be dropped but the bad elements in the church found them useful in mind control.

I lost all of who I loved. I can get news of them once in a while. I did talk to one I use to talk to in the church and she was nasty when I told her the truth of what was and told me I was doing overts against the church. (sins) I just choose to go a different way since they made it clear to me that they did not want me part of the group because I either had an ability that is considered OT or I was bad PR because I got very upset often. I still do. I am an artist and I am told artist have a sensitive soul. I know I really loved the people but they choose to dump me for their so could freedom. But they are in the biggest theta trap there is. It is a trap for souls the meaning of that.

Yeah the church will try to find a problem to sell you something but I can tell you they rather have someone with less problems so they do well and show off how well they are. One reason I was tossed was I was considered not able. I have had my run ins with independents as a few keep church think. But I have far more friends that will not dump me because others have a problem with me.

I have depression and what is considered PTSD. It is not all from the church but the church helped to trigger it.

AS I said I know independents that don't charge and some do a barter. Some do charge. Some are church like as well.

Scientology was taken from many religions and past great thinkers. More was discovered and the tech or teachings were created. I know they are workable done right. Done wrong great harm can be caused to the point of death.

So my viewpoint is that some groups can take payment by the percentage of the person's income. That and or free to pass it forward. One can be a student to work with another student and do it mostly free that way as well and it is the preferred stated route to Clear.

Now the church is for money and real estate and I feel sorry for those who busted their butts and took their pensions to help the local church and the management owns the buildings. They can take the building and sell it from under them.

Mephorium

PS About Ron and bad policy there are some who think Ron was brilliant and knew someone would take over the church so put in polices that if it was it would self destruct as it is doing.

He also put in policies that made the independents taboo and a high crime to be independent to keep the two separate so if the church falls the tech would still be out there which it is.

I tend to think this is so. For it is logical if he was as brilliant a person I think he could have been. I did not talk to him so I don't know.

I just talked to his son when I was young an long time ago. I don't remember much about it.