America's death toll on the world: 27,000,000++

Originally posted by Cydonian Priest
Maybe your next post could be how many lives the african government(s) have taken.

Which ones weren't supported by the US imperial establishment?

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Originally posted by Cydonian Priest
Maybe your next post could be how many lives the african government(s) have taken.

Which ones weren't supported by the US imperial establishment?

just list all of them

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Originally posted by uberarcanist
The vast majority of deaths of Native Americans from plague were accidental tragedies.

So were they not the result of US expansion (imperialism)?

Do we need to get into how there are known cases of "US" giving them small pox infected blankets?

So do we count the deaths of japanesse people who were shot with guns, seeings how we introduced the gun to them. (or did we, cant remember)

Originally posted by zerotime
You should take most of them off. Counting Native Americans that were killed by the British, French, Spanish, Russians, Portageas and each other in the time of Columbus would be incorrect. There was no America. By the time the American government started to push the Native American Indians around there weren't any left. They did not have a good defense against diseases that were unknown to them. I am not saying that what happened to the American Indians was a good thing because it was horrible. But trying to blame all their deaths from the time of Christopher Columbus on the USA when the USA wouldn't even be formed for another 300 years is silly.

Most?

I started with the low ball estimate of the total. Granted: sloppy on that example which is hard to know for sure.

The US government is what pushed deep into the lands, away from the coast. The Spanish were pretty nasty for a while I must say.

I decided to use them to cover the entire 1800's, and skip past other conflicts like the Mexican-American War to steal half of Mexico and so on. I guess Mexico was only 25,000 tho.

I removed the "low ball" slogan on the OP total. I might rearrange the OP, but there's room to justify the 1800's total when you bring in related issues like the "Black Genocide" which mant estimates place as higher than the "Indian Genocide".

There's also the angle where all of the imperialistic killing had been happening, and when the British imperial colonies became the U.S. they continued on and pushed it to the limit even. The atrocities against the Native's didn't even end in the major era aftermath, in fact they continue to this day:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Dont forget all the folks Stalin killed because if it wasnt for SPAM the Russians would have starved in WW2.

oh and you forgot Korea

[edit on 13-5-2007 by DarkStormCrow]

Originally posted by Cydonian Priest
So do we count the deaths of japanesse people who were shot with guns, seeings how we introduced the gun to them. (or did we, cant remember)

We actually modernized their armies in the late 1800's and eventually they came for US at Pearl Harbor. The irony.

Originally posted by Cydonian Priest
just list all of them

Check the topic. They're not in question here.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Yeah, but it's better than Communism in the 20th Century-93 million.

en.wikipedia.org...

Exactly. What about communism?

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
oh and you forgot Korea

I left out scores of examples to keep the TOTAL reasonable and realistic in case of any weak links. I probably should have trimmed back on the 1800's examples numbers and spent more time on the mid-1900's examples.

Originally posted by shadow_soldier1975
as far as WWII believe what you want and research all you like about the US influence/involvement. Take the USA out of WWII and I don't care what any book says...the outcome of that war and this world...definitly NOT what your used to!

Take out the UK, france and russia..

Then tell me how the outcome would have been..

My point was that it was an allied victory.. My country, my family bore losses just as grievous as those to the US, with a far lower capacity to tolerate them.. (higher percentage of the population).. Did they somehow not fight as hard?.. How about the Soviet Union?.. they did nothing either, right? The US has NO standing upon which to claim being the saviors of the world, unless you acknowledge the others that fought and died WITH them, in most cases for years longer..

Originally posted by zerotime
You could be correct but that number is the highest estimate.

Philippine military deaths are estimated at 20,000 with 16,000 actually counted, while civilian deaths numbered between 250,000 and 1,000,000 Filipinos.
The Philippine-American War Centennial Initiative gives an estimate of 510,000 civilian deaths, and 20,000 military deaths, excluding 100,000 deaths from the Moro Rebellion. en.wikipedia.org...

So that one was high ball. Many months ago I thought i had seen 1,250,000 as the high when I was researching it so I put down 100 and posted an easy link. You'll see with my more recent and controversial examples I was more recent-thourough, "conservative" with the variable range numbers, and there's just so much I left out of that number to be sure that 27M would stand up. Then there's numbers like how many American's were sacrificed in many of the staunchly imperialist conflicts.

If my memory serves, that Moro Rebellion was an example of US backed aggression against Filipino's nationalists that I left out of the OP list.

[edit on 13-5-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

I personally dont care how many we have killed, just that we dont continue the killing. I believe you have achieved absolutely nothing with this. (though your wtc7 topic is good, props for it) The dissapearing bees is a more interesrting topic (art bell is talking about it)

[edit on 13-5-2007 by Cydonian Priest]

Ignorance is upset that the USA has killed so many people....yet he sits in his home enjoying his FREEDOM given to him by the USA!

I must say, that is the most recycled and trite refutation used by individuals who are offended by criticism of the government.

The founding fathers and the revolutionaries granted us our freedom. Over time some individuals have expanded it and many have fought and died to protect it. However, the majority of wars fought in the history of the United States have not been to defend our nation and our freedoms. The only conflicts that genuinely threatened the United States were the Civil War, World War One (arguably), and World War Two.

It's not healthy to worship the government, it's purpose is to serve us and carry out our will. Praise the Constitution, for that is the heart of this country.

Might as well throw all the major contries in there while you're at it.

England

Russia

China

etc.

[edit on 5/13/07 by spanishcaravan]

Originally posted by zerotime
Just curious, but when you were doing this chart did the thought ever occur to you to list all of the good things that have come out of the USA? Or was that not going to fit the agenda?

You mean regurgitate the same old lines that we've all heard over and over and over to drown out any concept of the bad things "we've" done?

I could use some BTS points actually...

Originally posted by truttseeker
No one cares that we killed 27 million. But if we want to get into figures does someone want to dredge up a number of humanitarian aid that we've given away.

Exactly, so who's going to care after the next 27 million die? The real story here is that the imperialist stance not only persists but it's delved into it's darkest era.

Dredge up the numbers. Will they compare? Then we can go into the real nature of the World Bank, USAID, the IMF and so on. This isn't a discussion of total victims of US imperialism, just the killings. The total oppressed goes into the billions.

Outsider point :

The numbers of the OP i will not account for. I get depressed by those numbers and on the other hand, graphics always have a tendency to bend your view to the setting of the rulers on the side of it.
The trend I see in history before and since the birth of the USA in respect of imperialistic behaviour doesn' t change.

The world has been a power-playfield of nations since there were city-states and nations. The OP doesn't ad something to our historical notion in this respect.. All this warfare gave raise to the United Nations, to end all this back and forth killing. But alas, the UN is a body of nations and humans, so the intended change doesn't happen everywhere (that is to say: only there where we agree to have the power and a general political intend we bend the local politics to our means). And the USA uses the UN when they need it and stay away from it when the don't , as I see it. Smart politics.

As a born-European I am always amazed by the expression I often hear from US-citizens :the founding fathers granted us our freedom: or similar.

Freedom is not granted IMO, it is our birth-right and basic position. You cannot take it away and you cannot grant it. Anybody who says that he grants you your freedom, is your master!
Like some say in Europe when some US-politics are debated: "We will have to support them, didn't they free us from the Germans?!"
Like the Germans wanted to "free" themselves from the checkles of old Europe and the Jews and other socalled degenerate individuals. They needed breathing space.
When we "need" freedom we generally push other people away. That is not freedom. Like Europeans did in the colonies. Like the Europeans (new americans) did with the native americans. The newly found land in of North american continent gave the European (new american) the opportunity to indulge in freedom, to get as MUCH of It as He could. The Chinaman (new american) and the African-american got less to start with. Is that the kind of freedom your founding fathers granted you?

We have a general flaw. Is is agression. Too much emotion and power hunger. We will have to change to survive, and contrary to old views op the human make-up, we CAN change ourselves fundamentally. We ALL have to lay down our arms and invest in our scientific and caring facilities. We will kill this world and ourselves if we don't. We have to see the Other that we want to push away to have More Freedom as Ourselves.
The people that are Military Industrial Political Complex are not planning to stop. That should be our wake up call to change our vote, to start with, and create new politics of large active groups that do it without the money that is entailed these days.

I somebody says that he has to kill another person to ensure you YOUR freedom...watch out brother. Next thing they will say they will have to kill some ET's to ensure you your freedom. Yeah right.

I believe that Ignorance is correct, but for all the wrong reasons..

See it is obviously Global Warming that killed those 27M, and we are the cause of Global Warming, so it is our fault.

Research has proven time and again that the hotter it gets, the more tempers flare, and well, there you have it.

Or perhaps it is our fault because we introduced the TV to all those other countries. I mean EVERYONE knows that the violence inherent in the Bugs Bunny Cartoons of the past is what has caused all the violence in the world, so Yeah, that's it, the cartoons...

No, Wait! I have it,

It's the Automobile....

Of course, why didn't I think it that sooner!!!

It is the ease of transportation that the US has brought to an otherwise peaceful world and now all because of Henry Ford, we are destroying the planet....


How very easy to take any numbers and submit them in such a way as to fit whatever conspiracy we may have deluded ourselves into believing.

If it makes you feel more secure in your own culpability, then take whatever numbers you wish and you can of course "fit" them to "blame" anyone that you wish.
Then cry at the top of your lungs for others to provide links to refute your supposition..

The difficulty is that you are asking rational posters, to rebuke an irrational post. Difficult if not impossible to prove a fantasy wrong. And your application of the links and the numbers they represent is pure fantasy..

If that is too far out for you, here is a simpler analogy, try proving a negative.

Semper

Imperium Americana?

As of 2006 the U.S. maintains over 702 bases in 135 of the 195 sovereign independent nations of the world; now that is nothing right? Every country has military bases across the world - right? RIGHT! Yet of course foreign policy of the worlds only superpower, can not be judged or critiziced at all; whatever happened, which caused 27+ million of casualties in the world was PROVOKED and CAUSED by somebody else - not Imperium Americana!

Bombs 4 Peace?

73% of the years, from World War II's end to 1989, the U.S. bombed somewhere. After the Berlin Wall fell in 1989 the U.S. bombed at least 88% of the years into 2007. Is bombing fun or something? How many countries in the world have done this and got away with it? So there you have it - but what else can you do, when you have 702 military bases in 135 coverign nations around the world - and when talking about military bases: One author, Chalmers Johnson, notes that America's version of the colony is the military base - which is a pretty interesting theory, which can proove that Imperium Americana is actually very alive today, not in the old style Empire way; but in the new EMPIRE way. Alongside with weapons comes Cultural and Economical Imperalism.

General Smedley Butler, two Congressional Medals of Honor, for capture of Vera Cruz, Mexico, 1914, and for capture of Ft. Riviere, Haiti, 1917, Distinguished Service Medal, 1919. Republican primary candidate for Senate, 1932:

War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested.

So what makes You think that WAR has gotten any better or any more noble then 70+ years ago, when General Butler was "Liberating" South America? Are you tryingt to say, that 27+ million people dead DESERVED it?

Well-done - an important thread in these insular times.

Good to see some Americans remember the genocide in the Phillipines, the bombing of Laos and other US attrocities

Sad to see the usual 'unpatriotic!!' responses from the usual crowd.

If we're comparing imperial powers (and we clearly are) then I should say, as a Brit, that we too have racked up an impressive (ie terrible) total.


Not sure I agree with some of your examples - ie Timor, UK happily sold the Indonesians Hawk jets and other nasties so we should probably share that 'achievement' but overall I agree - it does make you question who the 'good guys' are?

If I had a WATS................