Does Satan have More Power than Human Beings?

Originally posted by The Winged Wombat

Finally, I am a little offended by your signature. I do not believe in 'God', but I am not ignorant of religion, in all its forms and beliefs, nor am I unintelligent. So your signature is incorrect, one may be quite well informed on the matter of religion and (by any standards) be quite intelligent and still not believe in a supernatural creator figure.

Hear, hear. One of the reasons I am an athiest is BECAUSE I studied religion extensively.

Religion and religious beliefs are opinions only. There is no definitive, concrete proof anything "supernatural" exists.

My signature is calling yours outside the bar for a little lesson in respect.

Satan even runs immigration...

Utah Co. GOP kills resolution on Satan

OREM - The Utah County Republican Party on Saturday killed a controversial resolution asserting Satan's role in illegal immigration and supporting the closure of U.S. borders.

The move was due not necessarily to lack of support, but because the convention lacked a full quorum. Seventy percent of the attending 471 delegates, or 334, had to be present in order for a vote to take place. By the time the resolution came up for debate, many of the delegates had gone home.

.....

"The devil is involved," Ferguson said. "Marxism is the devil and freedom is in Christ."

www.sltrib.com...

And I guess he also makes delegates go home for tea...

[edit on 1-5-2007 by melatonin]

Melatonin,

Thank you for drawing this to our attention.

I simply fail to comprehend how a branch of a political party can even contemplate such a view as this. And then their only reaction is that it might give the media (any media really - I don’t think it needs to be labelled further) ammunition with which to beat up on them!

It is obvious beyond the slightest doubt that the peoples of a poor (or oppressed) country near a richer one (especially with the contrast between living standards in Mexico and USA), would want to participate in that land of opportunity (A description Americans give to their own country, if I'm not mistaken) and achieve a better standard of living for themselves. This, the migration of individuals to the USA to achieve a better life, is the history of the USA, and the family history of most Americans, is it not?

I would draw a similarity between this situation and one where an individual from one of America's poorest ghettos, gets out of the ghetto and achieves something in life, thereby bettering his/her standard of living. Is that Satan's work?

Let's face it, if the peoples of the USA were not so greedy to maintain the lifestyle they have, partly furnished by US spawned multi-national companies suppressing wages in under-developed countries, then the USA would not seem so attractive to your southern neighbours.

Honestly, what can you say when these people blame Satan for illegal immigration into the US, when it is their own unwillingness to share their good fortune and lifestyle with their neighbours that is the cause of the problem.

If it was Mexico that was the rich country and USA that was poor, these same people would be saying that Mexico was in the grip of Satan by denying them the chance to make a better life in Mexico.

The Winged Wombat

Blitz,

As an athiest, I do not believe that evil as an entity (personified by Satan or otherwise) exists.

Given that I can say that the 'bad' things that people do (from the extremely insignificant to genicide) are explainable by such things as greed, envy, clinical madness and other documented mental conditions and religious intolerance - among other things quite human) then where do you see 'evil' in nature or the world? My feeling is that when you try to understand why people do the outrageously destructive things that they do, then that is the first step to stopping that kind of behaviour. Just by attributing their behaviour to Satan, or 'evil' doesn't stop it happening again and again.. (Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Ghengis Khan, Spanish Inquisition, more than one of the early Popes, the Crusades - when will it stop? - Not until we can ALL recognise the signs and understand the causes and circumstances that give rise to these abominable things). Personally, I cannot think of anything quite as stupid as killing people because the don't believe the same things that you believe.

For instance, was Saddam Hussein 'evil' or possessed by Satan, or was he merely(!) a megalomanic (a mental condition) politician whose greed and power hunger blinded him to the consequences of his actions? Indeed, did his belief in his 'God' convince him that what he was doing had divine approval?

Finally, I am a little offended by your signature. I do not believe in 'God', but I am not ignorant of religion, in all its forms and beliefs, nor am I unintelligent. So your signature is incorrect, one may be quite learned on the matter of theology and (by any standards) be quite intelligent and still not believe in a supernatural creator figure.

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 30/4/07 by The Winged Wombat]

Evil can come in many forms, mental conditions being one, though none the less people are evil by choice. You dont have to believe in evil as an entity, I am a religious person and I dont believe that satan is the cause of evil. The cause of evil is of our own doing, Many people question if god exist why does he let all these bad things happen. Im not trying to preach here but this is my opinon. God gave man free will, and if we choose to do evil then evil is what we will get.

No doubt religion has been used through out history to do evil, but religion is also used to do good.

As for my signature offending you, sorry. Maybe im offended by the fact that you don't believe in God. But that is your free will, and it is my free will to inform you of your ignorance.

Originally posted by GreatTech
Does Satan have More Power than Human Beings?

If we look at Job in the Bible God allows Satan to test him. Satan took his property, family, wealth and health. It's obvious by the scripture that Job was being protected by God because it is said that “God allowed” the devil to test, or have access to this devout man... we can see that without the protection from God the Devil has more power than man. Satan is able to bring decay and suffering to man while man is not able to do the same, in the same way to others. If this is a definition of power then Satan must have incredible power.

I guess it has a lot to do with the particular situation.

A man unaided vs. Satan unaided I believe the devil would do what he does best....he would bring decay, pain, deceit and death to the man.

In the end I agree with GT in his opening post when he says “Satan is only more powerful than us if we let him be. A strong will and faith can eliminate all the evil from our lives”.

The Winged Wombat

It sounds like you're in a quasi-Siddhartha state, I feel sorry for you when reality hits.

Originally posted by GreatTech
I believe that Satan generally reaches three types of people:

1) Those with a concurrence with evil: these people are generally happier when an evil event occurs, i.e., with murder.

2) Those who oppose God due to greed: these people believe in God, but due to their selfish desires frequently oppose His actions.

3) Those who are atheist: these people fail to give credit to the Creator of their lives.

1. These are bad people either through choice (free will), genetic disposition, social circumstances.

2. These are generally bad people also. Selfish, Self absorbded, Intolerant. All human traits.

3. This is just more of the same Atheist bashing from you GreatTech. Why hasnt Satan made me rob, lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, ive been an Atheist for 30 years surely i'd be a good target if he/she actually existed.

To answer your question Does Satan have More Power than Human Beings? i'll have to answer hypothetically as i dont believe in it.

My answer is Yes, i would imagine he also has a cape and wears his underpants on the outside.

you are an atheist right? Satan did his job well.

Yeah guess he must have mate, just think all you devout religious types can sit up in Heaven and point your fingers at all us evil atheists and laugh at our misfortune. That will be soooo much fun.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
The Winged Wombat

It sounds like you're in a quasi-Siddhartha state, I feel sorry for you when reality hits.

What exactly are you suggesting?

Are you suggesting that I am sitting under a tree contemplating the world as Buddha did? That would be to question all that is around you in the world - surely not a bad thing.

Please explain the label 'quasi-Siddhartha state' as you have used it and what makes you think this.

The Winged Wombat

Originally posted by kinglizard
“Satan is only more powerful than us if we let him be. A strong will and faith can eliminate all the evil from our lives”.

kinglizard,

I'm sure that we can all accept what the righteous define as 'evil' (with the caviat that the righteous of different religions may define different things as 'evil') regardless of our own individual religious beliefs or non-beliefs. Otherwise you are accusing all but the righteous of not being able to tell right from wrong.

However, I do not see that acceptance of a personification of 'evil' in the form of Satan (or indeed a belief in a supreme being) is a prerequisite for 'eliminating all the evil from our lives'. The flip-side is that only the righteous are able to reject evil and that is clearly not the case.

Furthermore, when you refer to 'faith' are you referring specifically to the Christian faith, or do you include all the other religions which may, or may not include a personification of evil.

Could it be that much of this debate hinges upon a belief that non-acceptance (or rejection) of the Christian faith is 'evil'. I don't believe that this is reinforced by Christian teachings, but if this is the feeling, then be aware that it is shared by Islam, where rejection of the faith is punishable by death and has been interpretted by some very nasty people as a self justification for what they choose to call jihad.

The Winged Wombat

[edit on 1/5/07 by The Winged Wombat]

Originally posted by The Winged Wombat

What exactly are you suggesting?

Are you suggesting that I am sitting under a tree contemplating the world as Buddha did? That would be to question all that is around you in the world - surely not a bad thing.

Please explain the label 'quasi-Siddhartha state' as you have used it and what makes you think this.

The Winged Wombat

what I'm saying is you seem a bit naive like Siddhartha before his "enlightenment," when he was still isolated from the outside world by his father.

thehumbleone,

I'm not sure where you got that idea. Don't get me wrong, I am fully aware that there are many people throughout the world who have bad intentions - many of them are in positions of power. I just don't attribute their actions and intentions to a supreme being. I hold them personally responsible for their own actions.

What I do see is that all the religions of the world have done little to curb the excesses of human nature, and that the differences between religions has been the cause of so much of the blood letting we call history.

If the aim of religion (all religions) is to create a better, safer world then all religions are an abject failure. If Christianity is the cornerstone of your beliefs, then consider that Christianity has had 2000 years to eliminate violence from our nature, but has failed to do so (indeed it could be argued that both Christianity and Islam have done just the opposite). Other religions have failed for even longer periods of time. Just how long does one follow a course of action that isn't working?

The Winged Wombat

The Winged Wombat,

As a Christian we believe that when we sin we open a doorway to Satan. We allow him access to us so he may lead us into temptation and further from God. That's what we (Christians) believe...the devil is jelous of Gods love for us so he wants to lead us away. God is our protection if only we have faith.


1 Peter 5:8-9

Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

2 Samuel 22:31

31 "As for God, his way is perfect;
the word of the LORD is flawless.
He is a shield
for all who take refuge in him.


Psalm 91

1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. [a]

2 I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust."

3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare
and from the deadly pestilence.

4 He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

5 You will not fear the terror of night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,

6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,
nor the plague that destroys at midday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.

8 You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.

9 If you make the Most High your dwelling—
even the LORD, who is my refuge-

10 then no harm will befall you,
no disaster will come near your tent.

11 For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;

12 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra;
you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him;
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble,
I will deliver him and honor him.

16 With long life will I satisfy him
and show him my salvation."

kinglizard,

Thank you for that.

It was not at all necessary, for I have read the bible (in more than one form) and other 'holy' books and I'm quite familiar with Christian beliefs.

Consider this basic logic. If I do not share your belief in 'your God' then quoting 'your Holy book' at me is but a self-justified and circular argument. While I might argree with many of the sentiments within any particular writing, it does not mean that I agree, or disagree with the entire message of the book or take its contents literally.

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 1/5/07 by The Winged Wombat]

Originally posted by The Winged Wombat
If I do not share your belief in 'your God' then quoting 'your Holy book' at me is but a self-justified and circular argument. While I might argree with many of the sentiments within any particular writing, it does not mean that I agree, or disagree with the emtire message of the book or take its contents literally.

You do realize you have thrown yourself into a Christian conversation right? Knowing that, you shouldn't be surprised when the Bible is quoted. We believe the Bible is the word of God so what other authority would or could be more relevant.

Remember I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm only sharing the Christian faith, what you do with that is us to you. You say you have read the Bible several times, I applaud that and hope that one day you will find your salvation.

Blessings

Originally posted by The Winged Wombat
Just how long does one follow a course of action that isn't working?

It is and has been working, for 2000 years it's been working. Every day Christian efforts are feeding and clothing millions upon millions of people. Every day Christians are reaching out to those in need...the addicted, the ill the lonely, from every nation they are being reached. Christianity gives hope to the hopeless and faith to the faithless, love flows like a raging river. BILLIONS of people over the last 2000 years have found their salvation through Christ.

If it was a business it would be the most successful, longest continually operated entity of all time.

All praise to Jesus!

[edit on 5/1/2007 by kinglizard]

kinglizard, thank you for your awesome quote of Psalm 91. I have not read this particular Psalm for a while; it is extremely inspiring.

Thank you, my friend.

Originally posted by kinglizard
We believe the Bible is the word of God so what other authority would or could be more relevant.

This is going a little off topic but when you say you believe the bible is the word of god what do you mean by that? Every Christian i've met so far has pretty much agreed that the bible is the word of man and not god, all be it the word of man as he saw what god was doing, still the word of man and more so altered throught the years by the church and others.

kinglizard,

I respectfully suggest that you have mis-interpretted what I said. Since you directed your response at me, I was merely stating that to quote the Bible at a non-believer in your faith is a rhetorical and useless argument.

With regard to the benefits of any particular religion to humanity, I wholeheartedly agree that many (or most, or even all) religions have done beneficial things for mankind as have other non-religious organisations. Please do not take my observations regarding peace and security of the world as a total condemnation of a religion.

In all organisations or beliefs there are pros and cons with regard to behaviour and benefit to mankind. That does not make any organisation totally right or totally wrong. That a Christian is (presumably) committed to peace and tolerance does not make them unique, not does it validate any other aspect of their rites or beliefs.

In spite of all the 'good' things religious organisations have done, I still believe that in the light of history and on balance, their existance has been a bad thing for humanity.

I see a danger for all people, whether Christian or not, if they believe that the writings or teachings of the organisation are an absolute truth (and without fault), for all situations. While some of the writings may be meritorious, other parts may be just as damaging or destructive in a given situation due to misinterpretation whether malicious or not. In such circumstances I can see people following a path not of peace and security, but something else 'because it is the word of God' (whether, in this case it is 'your God' or Bill Gates, George Bush or Osama Bin Laden). Remember that not everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany or for the German people was negative - but that didn't make him right in everything, did it. We only remember him for (if you like) his 'evil', not for the relief he brought the German people and nation from the terms of the Treaty of Versaille (which had he not broken the terms, Germany would have still been paying off the reparations in 1977! - Is it just or unjust to penalise the subsequent generations of the people of a country which went to war at the behest of its rulers/politicians - for people do not make war - only politicians make war!).

Being right in detail does not make a belief right overall and vice versa.

I hope you also applaud me equally for studying the Koran and the other books of the world's religions.

Forgive me, but I'd rather not enter into a debate concerning whether the Christian faith (especially the Roman Catholic Church) is a business or not, it would take forever.

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 2/5/07 by The Winged Wombat]