What was the deepest motivation of Nazism?

Originally posted by golddragnet
I don't fully understand why you say the dates don't add up, not being clear which dates you are refering to.

Sorry for being vague, I was referring to Cesare Borgia’s role in founding the Jesuits, I think he died in 1507 which would exclude him.

Originally posted by golddragnet
You also admit you can see they churches hand in it, but you seem to dismiss it as not so significant. If you were one of the victims you would probably have a very different view of it, and if you felt the church had a hand in it you would want the world to know that the church was partly responsible for their slaughter.

It is not my intention to downplay anyone’s murder. I am highly fortunate never to have lost someone I care for in this way or to ever really suffered at all. I am sure my appraisal appears cold to you, I am emotionally detached from those that suffered, they are long dead and I can do nothing for them. There is enough pain and suffering going on right now to shed tears for those that died 60 years ago or more.

In my opinion it is time that this period was opened up to intense scrutiny and the truth established. Too many people and organisations have failed to accept their cupability in mass murder, and continue to promote ignorance to conceal their part.

It may be that the Cossacks felt that they were being handed over to be murdered because they were not Catholic, all I can do though is interprete the available information and draw my opinion from it, I do not have a personal perspective as you do.

I believe that Stalin’s motivation for requesting their return was as I summarised, but the motivations of Roosevelt and Churchill are far more questionable. It may be that they were directed to this decision by advisors in the RCC and I will keep an eye out for evidence to support this. Roosevelt may be excused to an extent for his ignorance but Churchill certainly should have known better.

Whatever the reason, as you rightly point out, these people were sent to their slaughter. What is more they were dragged and beaten, kicking and screaming, clearly demonstrating that they knew what they faced. No-one did anything to stop it. 70,000 Cossacks alone were ‘re-patriated’ in this way. None of the parties involved has anything to be proud of.

Originally posted by golddragnet
… if you felt they had an involvement, you would want the world to know the churches involvement rather than simply having Hitler or "the Germans" blamed for everything without a critical look at all others who were involved…

You are absolutely right, my only caution was that we should be specific about it and not all into the same trap.

Every side had so much to hide at the end of the war. Very few had unblemished records. Some of those secrets have come out and the very nature of this information explains why we need to keep re-evaluating the period. Documents are being de-classified all the time but someone has to be looking for that information, someone has to join the dots. If all people are ever looking for is confirmation that the Jewish Holocaust happened or didn’t happen then nobody will ever see it. The denial acts as a smoke screen and everyone is complicit.

Until you pointed out to me the situation in the Balkans I was largely unaware of the Churches explicit role in the genocides in these regions, in fact I was unaware of the Ustasha altogether. Much of this episode has been glossed over or even ignored.

It could be argued that the Cold War served as much to maintain these secrets as it did to stem the tide of Communism. In fact it is interesting to note that a class suit has been filed against the CIA under the FOIA to release records concerning the confiscation of the ‘loot’ from the Ustasha massacres by British and US forces. According to the suit, it was used to fund the expansion of the British and US intelligence agencies in order to ‘fight’ the Cold War.

In terms of the Balkans, the Nazis and the Catholic Croatians were bed-fellows. The Yugoslavian army fought the Nazis on the front and the Ustasha from behind. They like the Arrow Cross Party in Hungary, welcomed the Nazis and were rewarded with their own ‘puppet’ government. All pretence that they were merely fighting for the preservation of their way of life falls away with their over-eagerness to involve themselves directly in mass murder. In Slovakia they paid the Nazis to take the Jews to the Death Camps, in Hungary and Croatia they pre-empted the Nazis in their actions against the Serbs/slavs.

The history of Germany is fascinating and absolutely fraught with intrigue and dynastic rivalry. The counter-reformation, as you clearly state, was most zealously fought in the Germanic regions and this mentality prevailed right up to the end of the World War 2. Whatever the motivations involved, it is impossible to ignore the fact that the European Protestant nations were considerably reduced following the war. Nowhere is that clearer than in Britain.

I personally believe it is the Austrian War of Succession (1740) that lays the ground works for the development of German Nationalism, especially given the subsequent partition of Poland. By following this period through to Bismark I feel a clear pattern of behaviour develops, the rise of Hitlerism becomes an inevitability. It is also with the First Partition of Poland that followed soon after that we can see a clear relationship between the Prussians and the Jesuits.

I agree entirely with you that the role of Catherine the Great is highly significant. When her husband came to power he fell behind the Prussians (7 Years War) and changed the tide of Frederick's campaign. However with Catherine’s succession all Russian support was removed (despite Catherine’s being the daughter of a Prussian general). Catherine and her husband were members of different factions within Russia, (it was an acrimonious marriage by all accounts!!!) and this indicates that the Jesuits were highly influential in Catherine’s decision making. Historically though they had their greatest success with female rulers and consorts, and often used this method to gain indirect influence over the men (which is why I do see the parallel with Hitler).

All the best

Originally posted by DenyAllKnowledge
"What was the deepest motivation of Nazism?"

I'd say hate bred by fear, fed by a healthy portion of paranoia and having become a pariah after the First World War.

Absolutely. Fear is the true root of all evil. All other human conditions, save love and it's resulting emotions, are dictated by fear.

reply to post by golddragnet


As someone who admittedly has no idea about what you are talking about would you please post some links which will point me in the direction of educating myself in the Jesuit/Catholic involvement in WW2 and beyond? I find this thread fascinating. Thanks.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
It could be argued that the Cold War served as much to maintain these secrets as it did to stem the tide of Communism. In fact it is interesting to note that a class suit has been filed against the CIA under the FOIA to release records concerning the confiscation of the ‘loot’ from the Ustasha massacres by British and US forces. According to the suit, it was used to fund the expansion of the British and US intelligence agencies in order to ‘fight’ the Cold War.

good post again.
Not Cesare Borgia, Francis Borgia was a co-founder of the jesuits and he was later to become a superior general of the order. Cesare Borgia's history is very interesting also. Francis was also a descendant of King Ferdinand of Aragon (aristocratic connections, by the way Pope Pius XII was also from the "black" nobility, it just came to mind this moment.)
The Borgia family have a very interesting history and they have had Pope and Jesuit Superior General connections, so it may or may not be interesting to read about them.

I am sure you will already know I share your "suspicions" about the manufacturing of the Cold War and some of the motivations behind its creation (even though I disagree about the preventing of the spreading of Communism, that was just another illusion for the public).
Very interesting observation you make about the British and American intelligence networks. There is another related case, detailing the Vaticans involvement in the loot stolen by the Ustashi. And if you look deeper at the US and British Intelligence agencies you will find connections to the Vatican (look to the Vaticans Knights of Malta).

I wrote very briefly about shaping of events in europe before WW2 and I wanted to write much more about it, but time is very much against me at the minute again, we mentioned Bismark briefly, of course there is so much that could be written about shaping of events throughout europe prior to Hitler, and we haven't even mentioned WW1 which is such an interesting subject, and the Jesuit manipulations of the war, protestant Germany took more punishment there!

In relation to american intelligence you will likely have heard of Operation Paperclip, and of Reinhard Gehlen (Catholic Knight of Malta). Also of interest to note who trained the first Mossad agents!!!

You correctly state the importance of the War of Austrian Succession and some of its conflicts can be said to go back to the Thirty Years War, and prior to that too, obviously.
The Habsburgs is worth many chapters on its own.
I must run for now, I find my time too limited of late. I look forward to reading any future posts you may add, and I hope to add more later.

Originally posted by golddragnet
good post again.

You too.

Originally posted by golddragnet
Not Cesare Borgia, Francis Borgia was a co-founder of the jesuits and he was later to become a superior general of the order. Cesare Borgia's history is very interesting also.

That explains it - the book I have on the Borgia's only goes up to Cesare's death, I know almost nothing of them beyond that point. Either way, interesting heritage. I'll read up.

I'm just on my way out so can't reply in details right now. Enjoyed your post though, you raise some interesting avenues of discussion and hopefully I'll get back to it later on today.

Who considers the potential role of Father Wlodimir Ledochowski S.J. Superior General (1915-1942)?


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Douglas Willinger
continuingcounterreformation.blogspot.com...
wwwfreespeechbeneathushs.blogspot.com...

Originally posted by golddragnet
... the Jesuit manipulations of the war, protestant Germany took more punishment there!

Apologies for the delay.

I think that we have established that the road to Nazism has at least some of its roots much farther back in history and that much of that history is interspersed, if not directed by sectarianism. I am still struggling to ascertain the precise role of the Jesuits in Nazi Germany, however as you so correctly point out the Protestants did take far more punishment than they should have done under the circumstances. What I cannot help but wonder though is whether the Jesuits directed the Nazis or whether they were in opposition. I have focused on the following points in attempting to establish ‘motive’;

Poland is now over 90% catholic. Based on pre-war statistics, the natural order would have been a Jewish majority, the genocide of 3,000,000 Polish Jews therefore entirely affected the demographics (the remaining Jews were either killed by Stalin or emigrated).

Many of the Polish Jews were in the Pale of Settlement due to Russian persecution. The Pale was set up by Catherine the Great, who had a Jesuit confessor/advisor. Frederick the Great introduced the Jesuits to Poland at the behest of his Jesuit 'advisor' to provide education to the masses.

Bismark sought to eradicate Catholic influence and expelled Catholics from Prussian held Poland. The Jesuits were expelled from Prussia at around the same time and Bismark sought to 'secularise' the goverment and civil services (including education). Bismark’s actions were influenced not so much by the Jesuits but by the Syllabus of Errors/Papal Infallibility which he saw as a threat to Prussian nationalism. The Jesuits were not re-admitted until 1917.

Over 200 Catholic clergy were killed by the Nazis in Poland. Approximately 75 of those were Jesuits (a rough total of 150 Jesuits were killed by the Nazi regime)

1– 2,000,000 non-Jewish Poles were also the victims of the Nazis, by both the Einzatzgruppen and by forced labour details. Those considered to carry ‘German blood’ were sent to Germany as workers and to be ‘Germanised’. Those killed were most likely racially Slavic, and most likely Catholic, though some may have converted and/or reconverted to Protestantism.

The Nazis were Nationalists.

The Jesuits were Communists and are Globalists.

The Jesuits are anti-Capitalists.

The Jesuits were responsible, in no small part for the German and Russian Enlightenment. Primary victims of both Stalinism and Hitlerism were intellectuals and university students, many of whom taught and were educated at Jesuit founded and funded institutions. Why would the Jesuits seek to destroy what it had itself created?

It can be surmised that Bolshevism is a direct result of Jesuitism, the education that the Jesuits brought to Russia and the effected intellectual uprising of the proletariat is very much in the ethos of the Jesuits. Russia by the time of Stalin though, was not Bolshevic, it was most definitely a dictatorship. The Jesuits oppose tyranny, until at least the 1700 they included direction for tyrannicide in their instructions.

I am therefore left with two choices, the Jesuits either promoted revolution in order to place themselves in rule and everything that they create is simply for the purpose of being destroyed when it has served its purpose (often after decades of work). Or some other force/body/organisations see the Jesuits as a threat to their way of life and wish to destroy their influence.

I am in no way supporting the Jesuits, but I do feel that the possibility that they are the enemy and a threat to the Capitalist Imperialists – in which case my enemy’s enemy is my friend…..doesn’t mean I’m about to sign up though!

I have still not gained enough knowledge to make any conclusions and I suggest that we organise a thread so that we can hammer this one out – as this thread is about Nazism, we have already stretched the boundaries somewhat and I think that it is unfair to continue the discussion in this vein (as interesting as it is from my perspective). The Jesuits are certainly influencial and it would be interesting to go into some depth as to how their present day position evolved but in another place – what do you think?

Originally posted by GKHaley
reply to post by golddragnet

 

As someone who admittedly has no idea about what you are talking about would you please post some links which will point me in the direction of educating myself in the Jesuit/Catholic involvement in WW2 and beyond? I find this thread fascinating. Thanks.

It appears the poster named douglaswillinger on this thread has some links!!!

reply to post by DerVaterlandsFreund


In direct reply to your subject line: idealism, of course. What else?
(Please note that when I say "idealism" I mean it strictly in the philosophical sense - not in the usual sense ascribed to the term.)

More specifically, "cultural protectionism" (that's what I call it) - including the corresponding "purging" - which was still widely acceptable at the time. The Lebensraum thing is only a natural development or consequence of such a tendency.

Unfortunately for very many people (including the ones who were supposed to benefit from it), idealism, when elevated into a political strategy, inevitably turns into Procrustes' bed...

Enough said.




[edit on 29-11-2007 by Vanitas]

they have been economically screwed for a while, why they take any kind of jewelry, gold, silver and what not they could get their hands on. Hitler himself tho, had lots of money from selling his book. he did help out with the economy, starting a war. war makes money. who knows exactly why he hated the jews so much. y does ppl hate other ppl not of the same color and race, and beliefs. but war was brought on for thousands of years, for land. watchin a thing on it right now on the history channel. it's not just land they wanted, of course. ppl wants to b recognized, and some will do anything for it, some in good ways, others in bad ways. mostly ppl r the way they r is the belief of, is there really is a God or not, plus our lifespan. nazism is basically a belief that there should b only one race, a superiority race of whites. a belief that the white race is a decendant of a superiority race from what exactly, who knows really. i say that mostly cuz, thousands of years ago, i believe there was no such thing as a white person, due to the positions of the land long time ago. ppl r the color they r, cuz of their positions, how much sun they get for the most part. if a white person lived in egypt let's say, that white person would b dark skinned after a while. but thousands of years ago, and even more than that, earth was closer to the sun, as well as the moon to us. the skin is just a protectant for our body, nothin more, nothin less. i'm sure there was just one race at one point, but somethin happened. the bible says somethin bout it, but i don't go by the bible too much, i only use it as a guideline. studies i've done about the bible and what not, things r exaggerated and what not, things left out, and other things, just to make it sound more heroic in some spots, and doesn't go into good details in other spots. so it's just a guideline to me basically. we did not evolve from monkeys, otherwise, monkeys would not exist, cuz they evolved..duh. something created this world, this universe, and place beings in it. we didn't evolve from a chemical reaction as scientists r tryin to say, atoms and what not does not have feelings to do so. but something sure did.
anyways, back to the main point here, that's what it comes down to of why the germans did what they did, and all other nations have tried to do b4. history repeats itself, insanity is what it really seems like. all these nations tryin the same thing basically, but trying to get a different result out of it. i guarantee after this next war, things will finally change, and i can't wait. wisdom is a major key part in our survival, but ppl don't seek it. it's there, just not bein looked for. let's also say, god or whatever placed us here, was with the ppl, tellin em u guys need to listen up or else, i'm sure god did this many of times, basically babysitting us. what would u do, if your creation didn't want to listen to ya no more, each time we was warned and what not, but no one still listened. i just think god or whatever, know what god got himself or whatever, when giving us free will.

reply to post by DerVaterlandsFreund


My answer would be fear. Fear that as a people, Germans were now slated to come in dead last, because they had lost the Great War. Fear that being relegated to the backwaters of international politics and commerce, they would be the first to be driven into extinction as human population outstripped the planets resources.

I think this was also a motivation for the "racist" policies. Not so much out of some psychotic hatred, but more as a calculated policy of culling the herd.

While I don't in any way endorse Nazism, Hitler wasn't some fruit-cake jumping around a gilded cage. He was an evil genius, in that much of what he did and planned was very logical. His insanity is revealed however, in some of the more inexplicable and unnecessary gambles he took, which were very un-German-like.

Seeing what soviet communism had done and was doing in the 20's and 30's, the millions of opposition supporters the bolsheviks murdered or sent to slave camps, Western Europe would've acquiesced to just about any alternative which promised to stop Stalin, and the nazis were highly skilled at heightening the fear.

Not that they needed to exaggerate, but they could put a racial dimension.

Certainly the likelihood of soviet takeover of Western Europe was a big factor in people's acceptance/acquiescence.


[edit on 4-8-2008 by undermind]

A person becomes they way they are, not by just genes, but also how that person been taught, basically....how they were brought up and raised. He was brought up in a real strugglin place. U.S been through a few or so last century, but they chose war to get em out of a crisis they were in. He was also one of those guys, who just go on a rampage, just for the thrill of it. Just got done watchin Dark Knight last night, very very good movie, very psychological movie, lots of twists and turns in it.....real krazy, and awesome. Anyways, the movie brought in some good points. I don't want to explain too much on these good pts, because that is just one awesome plot in the movie, which Dark Knight has multiple story plots in the movie, which ties up with the others, so I'd be givin parts of the movie away, you'd just hafta see for yourself. Anyways, it explains that some people are just an unstoppable force, an agent of chaos, and sometimes, some men are just doin it for the thrill, and nothing's gonna stop em, until you hafta take em find a way to take him out, if don't hafta kill him tho, don't...and Hitler was one of those guys. Having been fueled with hatred on something in his childhood, and growing up with, which that goes a long way.

reply to post by FalknFerno


Yes, but look what the "Dark Knight" had to resort to. An affront to the freedom, liberty, and privacy of us all. So by that logic, perhaps Hitler was just another "Dark Knight" only doing "what needed to be done" in order to stop the Red Menace.

Sorry I don't have time to read all the posts, but from my esoteric-type research I'm finding that the Nazis are very much interesting in collecting and destroying ancient artifacts and technology. Some of the artifacts tell of our alien past and some of the technologies have supposedly been reverse-engineered and are used currently in UFOs, stargate and time-travel technology. Their tied with the Illuminati and Zionists. Our current president Bush's father funded Hitler and the Governator's dad was a nazi, and the current Pope was/is a nazi... so this just is crazy, they totally took over the free world and nobody even noticed... and the worst part is like people don't care, they don't get it. The Nazis and the Zionists don't care about the little people, THEY DON'T CARE IF YOU'RE WHITE, haha... so really, it's time to start noticing. Zionism has been behind Nazism for a long time, and both their goals is for a master-race and controlling humanity spiritually/physically (ie, flouride in the water, evil food, porno + violence everywhere, using sigil magic, poor education, destroying the dmt in the amazon)... just theories but all this stuff to prevent us from seeing our "true nature" because they think we're their slaves or something... *sigh*

[edit on 5-8-2008 by nahitini]

[edit on 5-8-2008 by nahitini]

reply to post by nahitini


But there is an opposing school of thought there as well. That the Nazis, Hitler in particular, did not believe in esoteric mumbo-jumbo, but knew that many people did and do. It was not any of the artifacts themselves that had some magical powers, it was merely the effect that such artifacts would have on the population. Keep in mind that Nazism wasn't just a political ideology, but a religion as well. So in order to have a successful religion, one must become the gatekeeper and keymaster of the secrets.

After all, what fun is a magic show if you already know all the tricks? You will see that there is no magic, only manipulation.

EDIT to add: Also keep in mind that certain truths and artifacts in the hands of the Nazis could have served to unermine other illusions staged by other governments and world religions, while at the same time empowering the new Nazi illusion.

[edit on 8/6/0808 by jackinthebox]